Expat Captains in SIA..!!

[parabellum]

linksys - I was there for just about the entire life of the A310 and apart from a very few exceptions, usually due to personal reasons, all the expats finished up on the 744, so not too much:

Seen many since the A310 days till now.

"All dragged screaming and cursing out the door" filled with contempt and hatred.

there then?

And I think that you will find the 'contempt and hatred' you talk about is in your mind!

[linksys]

Perhaps! old wise one

[Flaperon777]

Hey guys,
Correct me if i'm wrong here,but didn't the Sia managment agree to the pilots getting one day Cnpl instead of the 3-4 days on the table.So what're you fellows cribbing about...?? Its a win win for both parties involved.The managment gets to cut its costs to a certain degree and the pilots get a relief(albiet temporary)from retrenchments.Whilst simultaneously being given the opportunity to chip into the company's coffers and help out when times are bad and whilst they can! Cause they ARE bad.So lets please help out with our two pence while we can,and not make complete clowns of ourselves in the process.
THOSE will be the ONLY memories that people will have of us pilots in better times.Those of the flyboys "who helped out in bad times!" So lets do our bit(s),and close our eyes thereafter.Cribbing only bitters the taste whilst lightening your pockets at the very same time.
Kind of a catch 22 situation,don't you think.
No point cribbing if u wanna help,and no point helping if u wanna crib!
Cheers now.
O & O

[DoMePlease]

To OP:

So when times are good, expats get better benefits than the locals.

And when times are bad, you're suggesting we all share the load equally?

That doesn't right. That doesn't sound fair.

[AirSlimer]

Flaperon, Read posting #18 by linksys in detail. Didn't you get the picture!

[slayerdude]

expat vs locals....
it's a contractual difference..... nothing to do with nationality or race

PR=permanent residence(any nationality) of course on local terms!!!!

Local terms= includes mutiple nationalities and races( no restrictions)

the solution WAS simple... if one needed stability and the last to go option..... should have joined on local terms.... too much drama from the KING

One has to accept the liabilities working on an expat contract... it very clear and simple." We don't need you, you go" vice versa!!!!!

[Capt Roo]

The economic crisis and now H1N1 - sadly I think that we are seeing the beginning of the end of Full Service airlines and the good T&Cs that come with them. The likes of Jetstar, Tiger, Ryanair and Easy etc are the sad future.

Having worked in Aus and FE most of my adult life, I have benefited more then most. Hope I can see out my days where I am now.

My heart goes out to my many friends (both expat and non) in SIA. Hope this all works out for you guys.

Thankfully none of my children and professional pilots. We will go the way of the engine drivers soon.

[AlienO]

Flaperon
Correct me if i'm wrong here,but didn't the Sia managment agree to the pilots getting one day Cnpl instead of the 3-4 days on the table.So what're you fellows cribbing about...??

1 day compulsory no pay leave is not the final deal. It is an INTERIM agreement.

Interim because without a deal with the pilots, any scheme that SIA has concluded with the other unions under the SIA umbrella cannot be implemented. There is a conditional undertaking by SIA not to implement any schemes till all unions has agreed upon something. So, everything hinged on the pilot's union coming to terms with the company.

The pilot's union has been given an ultimatum by management to agree to the 3/4 days CNPL or else......!!! More is yet to come!!

Don't be surprised if locals/PR also end up on the retrenchment list!!!

[greybeard]

Wake up!!!
All SIA care about is the shareholders, any less profit than the previous year/time frame is a LOSS, yes a LOSS in the thinking of that part of the world.
I was terminated during the SARS debarcle, standing in the crew room on a phone after a flight. Needed to be told as I was departing on leave in a couple of hours and they were worried I would escape and have a longer 90 days notice than the others.
At a pilot meeting later that month, 04/03, the similar retrencments were mooted and the CRM self appointed head of such immediately stood and said, O'seas expats are to go, then S'pore based expats before ANY 'local' was to be disadvantaged.
Expats are tollerated at best in so many ways not only in SIA but all over the world, can't do without you, need to pay you more in allowances etc etc.
The only slight edge is that as said above it may well hold up the so called base wage line as that is the same as a local and as the CPF has long gone and housing has all but been removed the jobs are the next saving available.

There are some really good people in SIA, few and at times well hidden for their own protection I sometimes felt, but the nasty ones REALLY are a class above all others.

There is a life beyond SIA, I actually miss Singapore and returned there for another Aviation position for 18 months, but the same deal is always profit before all else.
I guess you have to go with the flow, good luck to all that are for the bad news

[King on a Wing]

Can anybody here throw some light here on HOW the expat is making soo much more money than the local.
He uproots his kids from their original schools in their hometown and pays large donations(read bribes to the tune of 50k),heavy deposits(to the tune of 10k) and gets them into a school of choice.
The company reimburses the 'tution fees'(0.7k).
Now he sells his house(s) in his town of origin.And then he sells his car(s). And pays upwards of 5.5-6k PM for a half decent accomodation on the east coast of singapore.And all this is for something ON RENT.Whilst having shelled out 2-3 months rental towards 'deposit' for the same apartment!
So all in all he has shelled out about 60k(bond)+50k minimum(donations)+15k(deposit)+5k(1st month's rent)+10k(kids deposits on schools)+10k(towards misc moving that company DOESN'T cover)...!!!
So now our expat is very suddenly short of 150k+.....and all this BEFORE HAVING shifted completely into the city....!! And for schoolin for ONE child ONLY....!!(just imagine the empathy of a 1+ child household!!)
Now he has his kids in a school but no ride to take them around! Another 150k minimum for a set of wheels to get u around!
YOU do the math.Do u really think the expat is getting paid more than the local...????!!!??
Hmmm.....NO...!!!!
The biggest of lies are those best masked.This is one of those.
One HUGE lie or (maybe) a misconception.
Now @ Airslimer/Slayerdude/Alieno...
It surprises me....nay humours me, that u guys are all talking the union babble and ALL OF YOU HAVE LESS THAN 2 POSTS TO TALK FOR.....
Says something about your credentials doesn't it.....
Now off to my forced annual leave...

[overmars]

An expat does get paid more than a local. Compare the paychecks and the maths won't lie.

[James' Bro]

large donations(read bribes to the tune of 50k)

Wing King...... now you got me all worked up.... BRIBE?! Wait until the SIN authorities find out which school ask for these "donations"...

...and the hoops you have to go thru' in your village to get to this city..... I thought only laborers from a certain South Asian country does that !

[King on a Wing]

QUOTE...:
JAMES BRO,

"Wing King...... now you got me all worked up.... BRIBE?! Wait until the SIN authorities find out which school ask for these "donations"..."

Uwc.

"...and the hoops you have to go thru' in your village to get to this city..... I thought only laborers from a certain South Asian country does that ! "

Hmmmm.....village?? My currency buys 2 of yours...lol. I don't think I need to answer that question,don't u think...sounds kinda racist,for a race i'm not from! Either ways,very poor taste in simili's.

Thanks.
Overmars,
Pls read my previous post.It'll explain things in perspective.

[Metro man]

He uproots his kids from their original schools in their hometown and pays large donations(read bribes to the tune of 50k),heavy deposits(to the tune of 10k) and gets them into a school of choice.
The company reimburses the 'tution fees'(0.7k).

Some private schools want "donations" to ensure a place. However local schools may be acceptable to some, particularly British, as O and A levels are the final exams. No need to worry about drug taking or politically correct nonsense, your child will not get a book promoting same sex marriage.

Now he sells his house(s) in his town of origin.

Why not rent it out and have someone else pay the mortgage for you ?

And pays upwards of 5.5-6k PM for a half decent accomodation on the east coast of singapore.

Why pay so much ? With rents heading south around $4000 would get something reasonable. $2.5 - $3.0 would get acceptable further out.

Another 150k minimum for a set of wheels to get u around!

New Corolla $62 000 if you must have a car, excellent public transport.

A little bit of adaptation pays off.

[King on a Wing]

I will agree with you MM.
A bit of adaption pays off.
Unfortunately the rentals you quoted are either pre 2006 rentals or post 2009.The same with the schools and the car prices.Have you checked them lately.You would be surprised.
I'm going to leave here in a coupla months anyways (contract's up!) but these are the Sgd I have had to shell out.So i'm not kidding here.
Having said that,I do appreciate your efforts to honestly enlighten me.Thanks for the tip on my home in my place of origin.Unfortunately,i've already sold it off,in order to enable mortgage payments and to steer clear of the repo men.They can be nasty you know......
Thanks for the advice though.
I shall take it as it comes.
KW

[Left Coaster]

Hmmm. Let me see...car in Singapore? Why? Taxi fares really low if you compare to any other city of the same size. (Even with the extra +++) We MAY have spent 400 S$ a month to get around, and we had a good number of places we liked to head out to...including work. All those so called bribes were returned at the end of it all. School deposits, rent deposits etc. Yes there is a surprise factor at first, but for bloody sakes, do your homework...it isn't that hard! I will agree that "buying" a place at the school seems unfair, but it IS a business first and one must show a profit in Singapore or your are not very good business... It is a common practise in many countries. Have a chat with your school and find out what the policy is. My intel is that most expats are leaving anyway, and some schools have done a "180" on the policy already. As for rents, seems like some Landlords are paying a seriously stiff price for their greed over the last couple of years...lots of expats "running" and leaving the deposit behind to settle the bill, and leaving a greedy landlord behind. A simple two year contract (rental) has a clause that allows some relief if you need to get out of your contract early, but apparently a few owners are looking to add extra costs to the tenant. The protection some tenants might have been used to in their home countries do not protect them in the island state, but as I said above...so do your homework first! As for getting away clean, personally I had no issues...talk to your HR people, do not listen to the rumours and good luck...If in fact the company is shown that their policies are unfair there is a method of arbitration. Just ask the SAS boys who were shown the door...they did manage to "enlighten" (via the MOM) the policy makers that they acted in haste...sorry to hear the bloom is off the rose, we enjoyed most of our time there...

[overmars]

Thanks.
Overmars,
Pls read my previous post.It'll explain things in perspective.

I read your previous post. It is unfair to use that argument to say that an expat does not earn more than a local. If you tell that to one of the local FOs that you fly with, I reckon you will either get a respectful nod or, if he is more outspoken, something unrespectful.

I feel that a lot of your expenditures could be cut down. Your quote of 5-6k for a half-decent accomodation will actually give you a VERY decent accomodation. Oh, and don't forget to mention that expats do get a housing allowance which should offset most, if not all, of the rent. Anyway, we have people living in HDBs (again, why do many expats shun HDBs?) and they are also decent.

150k, like what MM said, is too expensive for a car! For half the price, you can get a really reliable Japanese car to zip around town. Unless, of course, you are looking to zip around town in a Golf GTi or a Volvo.

With respect to education, you always have the option of local schools. Nothing wrong with them. Many of the local FOs are from them and most, I hope, did not come out as pariahs.


So, again, I say, expats do earn more than locals. It is just that your calculation of expenditures of an expat is equally high.

[expat400]

Why deny that expats are paid more? They are, and they should be.

Not because they are "better" or "worth more" or "need to keep a certain standard".

No, the company is simply paying for the experience and the short term contract.

Anyone bringing in years of experience should be paid more.

Anyone hired on a short, easy terminated contract should be paid more.

Simple.

[Minosavy Masta]

Ahhhhhh the Truman Show sequel is alive and well ..Laaaa

[Metro man]

Expats should be paid a sufficient amount to make it worthwhile for them, otherwise why come ? This could even be less than the locals (ie contracts in Japan) as long as enough suitable people apply. Is the package on offer enough to compensate for the inconvenience and extra expense incured, as well as the insecurity of a fixed term employment period.

However, as Singapore has developed the 'expat premium' has decreased for many occupations. Companies simply do not need to pay over the odds for a pleasant location, where as if it was Riyadh or Lagos .......

Actually King on a Wing may well have spent $150 000 on an average car if he bought many years ago, prices now have come down to 'only' 2-3 times USA/Europe/Australia levels. I bought a 4 year old Hyundai for only 50% more than a new one would have cost me where I came from. Lower income tax rates more than compensate though.

I do remember the rents going ballistic in 2007, fortunately I had just signed a 2 year lease. Many people I knew faced 40 - 80% increases on renewal.

SQ may have over reacted this time and could find themselves short when things pick up again.