Airlines in India going to cut Expats pilots...IS IT TRUE??..
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Airlines in India going to cut Expats pilots...IS IT TRUE??..
Airlines go hunting for desi pilots, crew
Mumbai: Domestic airlines have geared up for a massive recruitment programme for local pilots after civil aviation minister asked carriers this week to replace their foreign pilots by July 2010. Sensing possible shortage of Indian pilots over the next three quarters, full service carriers such as Jet Airways and Kingfisher Airlines have already sounded out competitors’ pilots.
Jet Airways has nearly 780 Indian and 230 foreign pilots. “We will gradually make Jet Airways a fully Indian-run airline and the process has already started,” said a senior Jet Airways official.
On the other hand, National Aviation Company of India, which runs the national carrier Air India, will be hiring 40 trainee pilots and co-pilots from Indian citizens. An Air India spokesperson said these fresh pilots will also have to execute performance bond after completion of training . Air India is a national carrier and it keeps hiring pilots at regular intervals , he added.
The main concern is that India doesn’t have enough ‘efficient’ pilots, with the expertise and experience to fly large aircraft like Boeing and Airbus . The industry may see cut-throat hiring from competition, said an analyst with a brokerage firm.
Currently, India has about 1,000 foreign pilots in domestic airlines. In 2005, the government allowed airline operators to hire foreign co-pilots , senior pilots or commanders. Directorate General of Civil Aviation last year said 1,490 foreign pilots were given licences to seek work in the Indian civil aviation sector.
Not only full service carries but lowfare airlines are also hiring pilots. Gurgaon-based no-frill carrier SpiceJet ' plans to hire a dozen more in the current fiscal year.
20/02/09 Mithun Roy/Economic Times
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Mumbai: Domestic airlines have geared up for a massive recruitment programme for local pilots after civil aviation minister asked carriers this week to replace their foreign pilots by July 2010. Sensing possible shortage of Indian pilots over the next three quarters, full service carriers such as Jet Airways and Kingfisher Airlines have already sounded out competitors’ pilots.
Jet Airways has nearly 780 Indian and 230 foreign pilots. “We will gradually make Jet Airways a fully Indian-run airline and the process has already started,” said a senior Jet Airways official.
On the other hand, National Aviation Company of India, which runs the national carrier Air India, will be hiring 40 trainee pilots and co-pilots from Indian citizens. An Air India spokesperson said these fresh pilots will also have to execute performance bond after completion of training . Air India is a national carrier and it keeps hiring pilots at regular intervals , he added.
The main concern is that India doesn’t have enough ‘efficient’ pilots, with the expertise and experience to fly large aircraft like Boeing and Airbus . The industry may see cut-throat hiring from competition, said an analyst with a brokerage firm.
Currently, India has about 1,000 foreign pilots in domestic airlines. In 2005, the government allowed airline operators to hire foreign co-pilots , senior pilots or commanders. Directorate General of Civil Aviation last year said 1,490 foreign pilots were given licences to seek work in the Indian civil aviation sector.
Not only full service carries but lowfare airlines are also hiring pilots. Gurgaon-based no-frill carrier SpiceJet ' plans to hire a dozen more in the current fiscal year.
20/02/09 Mithun Roy/Economic Times
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You must have been on a desert island for the last 6 months Viking !
Yes its true and not only airlines in India either.
Any airline around the world that has a large local pilot workforce and expats flying for them as well will start cutting expats first in any downturn.
It just makes economic sense,so in any downturn the expats will allways be the first to go.
Yes its true and not only airlines in India either.
Any airline around the world that has a large local pilot workforce and expats flying for them as well will start cutting expats first in any downturn.
It just makes economic sense,so in any downturn the expats will allways be the first to go.
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"a large local pilot workforce"
Do you mean the guys just coming out of flight school?
If they had "a large local pilot workforce", then they would have never hired expats. Ask yourself why they hired expats in the first place in a country that has almost a billion people. Aparantly they were lacking something.
Lets hope this drive to nationalize too early does not cause a renumeration in blood.
Do you mean the guys just coming out of flight school?
If they had "a large local pilot workforce", then they would have never hired expats. Ask yourself why they hired expats in the first place in a country that has almost a billion people. Aparantly they were lacking something.
Lets hope this drive to nationalize too early does not cause a renumeration in blood.
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There are approx 1800 pilots in SIA of which 200 are expats I would consider that a "large local pilot workforce" 
Last edited by faheel; 21st Feb 2009 at 01:45. Reason: quotation marks
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India doesn’t have enough ‘efficient’ pilots, with the expertise and experience to fly large aircraft like Boeing and Airbus
Earlier the media said india need 5000 pilots in next 3-5 years..... And the result is in front of you....This is indian media...Good for nothing....
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faheel
I thought the topic was India, at least that was the intention of the person starting the thread.
But, if you want to talk about Singapore, you would still be wrong. "a large local pilot....." means, for example:
SIA is expanding like mad, needs 1000 pilot tomorrow with a minimun of 3000 hours total time and 1000 jet.
SIA gets 5000 applicants for the job.
Now that is a large local pilot population.
I don't think Singapore has that, sorry.
right back at ya 
But, if you want to talk about Singapore, you would still be wrong. "a large local pilot....." means, for example:
SIA is expanding like mad, needs 1000 pilot tomorrow with a minimun of 3000 hours total time and 1000 jet.
SIA gets 5000 applicants for the job.
Now that is a large local pilot population.
I don't think Singapore has that, sorry.
right back at ya
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@cf680c2b
Mate i think that faheel was just giving an example of "large local workforce"....
And SIA is in a class of its own...U cannot compare any airline in india with it.....
Mate i think that faheel was just giving an example of "large local workforce"....
And SIA is in a class of its own...U cannot compare any airline in india with it.....
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cf680c2b
I did not say Singapore has a large local pilot work force.
I did say SIA has a large local pilot workforce...there is a difference.
Anyway Singapore is a small country and I grant you there was a time when they needed expats for their expansion however they have a very active cadet pilot scheme.
By the time the next employment boom arrives ( at least 4 years away and prob much longer) their need for expats will be zilch.
I did not say Singapore has a large local pilot work force.
I did say SIA has a large local pilot workforce...there is a difference.
Anyway Singapore is a small country and I grant you there was a time when they needed expats for their expansion however they have a very active cadet pilot scheme.
By the time the next employment boom arrives ( at least 4 years away and prob much longer) their need for expats will be zilch.
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"LARGE LOCAL PILOT" workforce
In the interests of Payload, etc maybe Singapore should employ "Regular sized Pilots", and not the LARGE version.
If this is not possible due undersupply of Regular Sized Pilots in Asia then Crew Meals could be Noodle and Rice removed to formulate a more acceptable size of workforce............Bread supplement could be experimented with;... on second thoughts "noodles", make you more Regular.
If all else fails .......
If this is not possible due undersupply of Regular Sized Pilots in Asia then Crew Meals could be Noodle and Rice removed to formulate a more acceptable size of workforce............Bread supplement could be experimented with;... on second thoughts "noodles", make you more Regular.
If all else fails .......
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indian pilot requirement
The need in airlines of India are for captains/TRI's and TRE's ..... we have enough CPL holders who can easily be trained to be a co-pilot , at last count close to 2000 + CPL holders without jobs.
Things that the DGCA can do to ease the expat requirement include making the ATPL exam more user-friendly, currently there's no logic to some of their questions and which other country has a viva ...clearly we have a large number of experienced co-pilots who are more than capable of being captains but for the ATPL.
AI would rather hire expats than employ experienced captains from other airlines in India , they somehow find it fine than Indian nationals should accept less money, no seniority and no progression ....the recent ad for the 747/310 captains and the lack of interest from indian nationals due to the low T's & C's ....I would not like to speculate but there are rumors that hiring expats are more lucrative to a few in AI ...dunno how much that's true or is it the good old AI redtapism at play????
If DGCA, airlines in India and the ministry of Civil Aviation really want to take this forward, we can do it and anybody who thinks that there will be a large number of aviaition disasters once the expats go is seriously wrong ....all we need is a will.....
masalama.
Things that the DGCA can do to ease the expat requirement include making the ATPL exam more user-friendly, currently there's no logic to some of their questions and which other country has a viva ...clearly we have a large number of experienced co-pilots who are more than capable of being captains but for the ATPL.
AI would rather hire expats than employ experienced captains from other airlines in India , they somehow find it fine than Indian nationals should accept less money, no seniority and no progression ....the recent ad for the 747/310 captains and the lack of interest from indian nationals due to the low T's & C's ....I would not like to speculate but there are rumors that hiring expats are more lucrative to a few in AI ...dunno how much that's true or is it the good old AI redtapism at play????
If DGCA, airlines in India and the ministry of Civil Aviation really want to take this forward, we can do it and anybody who thinks that there will be a large number of aviaition disasters once the expats go is seriously wrong ....all we need is a will.....
masalama.
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I think that it's wrong that we should make the ATPL exam easier for more ATPL pilots... Instead the pilots should up their ante.... DGCA should make it more practical though.... U don't want anyone taking ATPL for granted....
I cannot see any logic that AI prefers expats over indian pilots as expats are expensive.... I think that someone might be benefiting from this in AI...
No one says that it will happen, it's said that it might happen...The fact is which everyone knows that indians are ignorant... Yes there are indian pilots who are best in what they do but the corrupt, bureaucratic system is the major hindrance. No one is ready to learn from their mistakes..... Safety is compromised for money....
I cannot see any logic that AI prefers expats over indian pilots as expats are expensive.... I think that someone might be benefiting from this in AI...
anybody who thinks that there will be a large number of aviaition disasters once the expats go is seriously wrong ....
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Passing an ATPL exams doesn't not make one capable of becoming a captain. I currently fly as a capt in India and the fo's are so inexperienced that they don't even have a clue how poorly they fly. They can quote the SSOP's and FCOM, but when it come to important, real world skill, 95% are severaly lacking. Believe me, when the expats are finally pushed out, there will be bent and broken airplanes in India. I have been a capt on 3 continents and can honestly say that the majority of Indian fo's are years away from being capable commanders.
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Dear manfred von richthofen and mr p.p.,
I hate to remind you but a wise man once said,good pilots aren't born, they are made.
I sure as hell hate getting into the semantics of things but you cant just classify a bunch of people as ignorants and carry on.
You were no where as good a pilot when you had the experience of some of these f/o's you trash,maybe you were a bit better,maybe you were a bit worse, that is not the point. the point is that there was some one in the left seat you taught you and over the years you became good enough and skilled enough to be an airline commander.
i am a copilot working in an airline, and i dont want to be a commander before a couple of years learning. i, and a lot of chaps like me respect and value the captains flying with us,be you white, brown,black or yellow.
when i see you, i see the vast amount of experience you bring from across the continents and years with you.
and as you said you have served on 3 different continents, you seriously want to tell people that you were welcomed with open arms everywhere.
no one likes an outsider taking away jobs in their own backyard,no one,even if they are not qualified to replace that man or woman.
that just is the life of an expat pilot. get used to it sir.
i respect you, i respect the pilots from mexico,brazil,malaysia,indonesia,thailand, australia etc who fly with me,
i want to learn from them, so that one day, when i have learnt enough, and one day when i can be confident of being responsible of the lives of my passengers i can step up and be an airline captain and continue a tradition hued not in racist and coloured tones but one whose story has been written by the broad brush strokes of responsibility and respect for these machines we fly and feel proud of.
please dont take this little riposte to be in any way designed to anger or invite you to a written tussle.
just remembe that it takes time from being average to being good in a plane,that and inspiration from folks like you.
in that plane no one else but you can polish my techniques, if you hold so deep a bias, should i be blamed?
if you think so sir, i rest my case.
I hate to remind you but a wise man once said,good pilots aren't born, they are made.
I sure as hell hate getting into the semantics of things but you cant just classify a bunch of people as ignorants and carry on.
You were no where as good a pilot when you had the experience of some of these f/o's you trash,maybe you were a bit better,maybe you were a bit worse, that is not the point. the point is that there was some one in the left seat you taught you and over the years you became good enough and skilled enough to be an airline commander.
i am a copilot working in an airline, and i dont want to be a commander before a couple of years learning. i, and a lot of chaps like me respect and value the captains flying with us,be you white, brown,black or yellow.
when i see you, i see the vast amount of experience you bring from across the continents and years with you.
and as you said you have served on 3 different continents, you seriously want to tell people that you were welcomed with open arms everywhere.
no one likes an outsider taking away jobs in their own backyard,no one,even if they are not qualified to replace that man or woman.
that just is the life of an expat pilot. get used to it sir.
i respect you, i respect the pilots from mexico,brazil,malaysia,indonesia,thailand, australia etc who fly with me,
i want to learn from them, so that one day, when i have learnt enough, and one day when i can be confident of being responsible of the lives of my passengers i can step up and be an airline captain and continue a tradition hued not in racist and coloured tones but one whose story has been written by the broad brush strokes of responsibility and respect for these machines we fly and feel proud of.
please dont take this little riposte to be in any way designed to anger or invite you to a written tussle.
just remembe that it takes time from being average to being good in a plane,that and inspiration from folks like you.
in that plane no one else but you can polish my techniques, if you hold so deep a bias, should i be blamed?
if you think so sir, i rest my case.
Last edited by airborneforever; 23rd Feb 2009 at 17:53.
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Mate i agree with you for whatever u said but i agree with with peterporker too that some FO's in india fly poorly.... One FO in a major indian airline said that VSI shows ROC in degrees..... Angle of bank is shown by Altitude indicator.... And there are many other instances like this... This is quite serious....Imagine him becoming a commander.... You never want to fly with the commander who knows nothing at all.... They might pass the ATPL exam with help of coaching classes but the skill and knowledge is still not there..... Some of the FO's are brilliant and know everything but then, there are these type of FOs also..... It's a known fact that during the aviation boom india some students had fake entries in their log book to save money and to get job as soon as possible and thats the only reason some of the training schools are black listed in india.....
What can you say about those pilots..... Airborneforever,you are a good pilot and a good human but there are many other type of people flying as FO's and commanders too......
What can you say about those pilots..... Airborneforever,you are a good pilot and a good human but there are many other type of people flying as FO's and commanders too......
Last edited by Schumi - Red Baron; 23rd Feb 2009 at 02:28.
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Airborneforever: Well written. I only wish that there were more FO's like you in India. If this were true I may have stayed.
Equally true is what has been written above. Pilots of "that" standard would not / should not be permitted solo in a single engine C152, in a "respctable" country's aviation regulatory body, yet in India they are flying A310's, B737NG's, A320's and B777's.
I flew in India and left due the incessant corruption, small mindedness and shear dangerous culture that is so prevalent.
The overwhemling majority is that expats are not welcomed, that those national CPL holders with an "incredible" 250 hrs TT believe a (jet) airline job is a RIGHT, not a priviledge to be earnt. The vast majority of (upper & middle) management, comanders and FO's are so beligerant in their attitude that they cannot see the experience of others purley in view of the colour of their skin or nationality.
AI certainly has a legacy and culture of corruption and severe mediocrity where safety is compromised beyond (my) professional belief. (Hence I left).
"EARNING" an ICAO Category 2 has been well earnt.
So, kick out the expats who offer experience and come from airlines where standards were/are high and SOPs are respected and maintained as a matter of professionalism and as a MINIMUM standard. The DGCA just wants to keep lowering that bar for political gain and, dare I say it, greasing the backhands of too many. Safety?
Equally true is what has been written above. Pilots of "that" standard would not / should not be permitted solo in a single engine C152, in a "respctable" country's aviation regulatory body, yet in India they are flying A310's, B737NG's, A320's and B777's.
I flew in India and left due the incessant corruption, small mindedness and shear dangerous culture that is so prevalent.
The overwhemling majority is that expats are not welcomed, that those national CPL holders with an "incredible" 250 hrs TT believe a (jet) airline job is a RIGHT, not a priviledge to be earnt. The vast majority of (upper & middle) management, comanders and FO's are so beligerant in their attitude that they cannot see the experience of others purley in view of the colour of their skin or nationality.
AI certainly has a legacy and culture of corruption and severe mediocrity where safety is compromised beyond (my) professional belief. (Hence I left).
"EARNING" an ICAO Category 2 has been well earnt.
So, kick out the expats who offer experience and come from airlines where standards were/are high and SOPs are respected and maintained as a matter of professionalism and as a MINIMUM standard. The DGCA just wants to keep lowering that bar for political gain and, dare I say it, greasing the backhands of too many. Safety?
Last edited by TopTup; 23rd Feb 2009 at 02:33.
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Schumi - Red Baron
"..... Angle of bank is shown by Altitude indicator...."
Am I missing something here? I have been looking at AI's/AH's for decades and I thought the angle of bank was derived from the AI. Same as wings level, I.E., zero A of B.
"..... Angle of bank is shown by Altitude indicator...."
Am I missing something here? I have been looking at AI's/AH's for decades and I thought the angle of bank was derived from the AI. Same as wings level, I.E., zero A of B.
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Airborneforever, thanks for your reply. I wish that more fo's here had the same mindset as you do, but unfortunately most do not. I am constanty flying with ones that believe that once they pass the ATPL exams that they are ready to be commanders, even though they still don't know how to use the rudder pedals or fly a visual approach. Also in many countries in the world one has to actually know how to fly an airplane before flying professionally, in India most fo's learn to fly with a planeload of paying pax. I feel that the vast majority of Indian fo's have skipped all the important steps in learning to become competent professional pilots. These building blocks would be: flight instructing, single pilot charter/freight, FO in turboprop, etc, and when sufficiently experienced then flying for an airline. This is the path that I took and most of my aviator friends took as well. I'm not saying that ones flying ability has anything to do with ones nationality, one of the best aviators I know is an NRI (learned to fly and flew professionally out of India for years), but the system in place in India for training and checking pilots is very inadequate and quite dangerous.
Here's an honest fact from my personal experience: As a commander in the USA I have never taken the controls off of an FO, as a commander in EU I only took the controls once (due to brand new fo and max crosswind), and as a commander in India, I have lost count of the times I've taken the controls off of an FO. I'm not saying this to belittle the Indian FO's, I'm just pointing out a fact that shows the level of training and experience in India.
Here's an honest fact from my personal experience: As a commander in the USA I have never taken the controls off of an FO, as a commander in EU I only took the controls once (due to brand new fo and max crosswind), and as a commander in India, I have lost count of the times I've taken the controls off of an FO. I'm not saying this to belittle the Indian FO's, I'm just pointing out a fact that shows the level of training and experience in India.
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Not Only Expats
There are very good points raised here.
However, the reality is also there..
The routes are reducing, Wide body ac are being leased out, The locals are opposing the nearly double salaries of Expats, Losses are being run into millions daily/ weekly.
There has to be a rationalisation of workforce, and naturally the sequence will be Expat FO,Local Trainee FOs, Line XPTCapt, XPT TRI etc.
The TREs will remain becoz of the nasty and petty bloody minded local examiners... mostly Ex Indian Airlines. Their FATAs are being renewed.
All upgrades are frozen, new entrants are being asked to join ATR if they wish to join, whether Turboprop or Jet background.
Hence not only expats, even loal captains looking for job security or order are looking at other national airlines
Not looking bright for all
However, the reality is also there..
The routes are reducing, Wide body ac are being leased out, The locals are opposing the nearly double salaries of Expats, Losses are being run into millions daily/ weekly.
There has to be a rationalisation of workforce, and naturally the sequence will be Expat FO,Local Trainee FOs, Line XPTCapt, XPT TRI etc.
The TREs will remain becoz of the nasty and petty bloody minded local examiners... mostly Ex Indian Airlines. Their FATAs are being renewed.
All upgrades are frozen, new entrants are being asked to join ATR if they wish to join, whether Turboprop or Jet background.
Hence not only expats, even loal captains looking for job security or order are looking at other national airlines
Not looking bright for all