Unpredictable DGCA
The Bumblebee
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FlightKnight,
It is called Assisted Take off and Landing clearance in India. The DGCA last year reduced the experience to 50 hours and 20 landings after the FO is released, earlier it used to be 300 hours. The catch is that after meeting the requirement the FO has to undergo a sim session to be approved for Asst TO and Landing clearance. Sometime it can take as long as 5 months before the next sim session is due. Also the PIC is required to have 500 hour PIC on type before they can give take offs and landing to FO. So, here I am a brand new captain with a meager 150 hours on type, I cannot give take off and landings to any FO (including Sr FO's who have cleared their Asst Take off & Landings) as I am not cleared to do so. Both Capt & FO must hold the approval.
You can find out more about it at http://dgca.nic.in/aic/aic09_07.pdf
While I was flying in the USA, a capt never asked me if I was cleared for take offs and landings. The only thing they asked me was which leg I wanted to do and that started the ball rolling for next few days we were on a trip together. When I came to India it was a shock for me. Here I was an relatively experience FO, around 4000 total time but for the 400 hours in the bus I couldnt take off or land because I didn't have the darn approval (thanks to DGCA for the ruling).
It is called Assisted Take off and Landing clearance in India. The DGCA last year reduced the experience to 50 hours and 20 landings after the FO is released, earlier it used to be 300 hours. The catch is that after meeting the requirement the FO has to undergo a sim session to be approved for Asst TO and Landing clearance. Sometime it can take as long as 5 months before the next sim session is due. Also the PIC is required to have 500 hour PIC on type before they can give take offs and landing to FO. So, here I am a brand new captain with a meager 150 hours on type, I cannot give take off and landings to any FO (including Sr FO's who have cleared their Asst Take off & Landings) as I am not cleared to do so. Both Capt & FO must hold the approval.
You can find out more about it at http://dgca.nic.in/aic/aic09_07.pdf
While I was flying in the USA, a capt never asked me if I was cleared for take offs and landings. The only thing they asked me was which leg I wanted to do and that started the ball rolling for next few days we were on a trip together. When I came to India it was a shock for me. Here I was an relatively experience FO, around 4000 total time but for the 400 hours in the bus I couldnt take off or land because I didn't have the darn approval (thanks to DGCA for the ruling).
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D.G.C.A is full of crap, pretty sure they don’t know the difference between the knee and the elbow. What amazes me the most is, what are the flight ops dept of the various airlines doing about it? I understand there are various reps from the airlines working as examiners, shame on you. Give some decent advice and get the D.G.C.A up to the mark.
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Folks
No doubt, the DGCA needs a major overhaul. For the sake of change that not all of us sing the same song, I try another one "walk a mile in my shoes" and see how they feel.
This system has has "worked well" for this people for a long time. This officials do not have a personal economic incentive to change. All of us are new to this country and earn about 10 times more than they do. Before the President personally gets involved, things will change very slowly, but change will come.
Enjoy the adventures.
More important, where are the women???
This system has has "worked well" for this people for a long time. This officials do not have a personal economic incentive to change. All of us are new to this country and earn about 10 times more than they do. Before the President personally gets involved, things will change very slowly, but change will come.
Enjoy the adventures.
More important, where are the women???
Join Date: Mar 2007
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DCGA forbids all Expat FO flying in India!
I got an email below(just want to inform this, not blaiming anyone):
Dear Mr. Maunu!
I totally agree with you that you have a contract with us and also we have
obtained your security clearance.But the unfortunate part is that the DGCA
has clearly informed us that they will not allow any EXPAT FIRST OFFICER
TO FLY IN INDIA BEYOND 1ST JUNE 08. In view of this directive, it will not be possible to bring you in,
With warm regards
K B Menon
SR.GM - Operations Planning
Jet Airways
Dear Mr. Maunu!
I totally agree with you that you have a contract with us and also we have
obtained your security clearance.But the unfortunate part is that the DGCA
has clearly informed us that they will not allow any EXPAT FIRST OFFICER
TO FLY IN INDIA BEYOND 1ST JUNE 08. In view of this directive, it will not be possible to bring you in,
With warm regards
K B Menon
SR.GM - Operations Planning
Jet Airways
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OH, that is interesting.
If an a/c is crewed by both an Indian Captain and an Expat Captain and instead of alternating PIC and SIC each leg for example, the Indian will just have to be SIC.
Shot themselves in foot once again, don't you think?
If an a/c is crewed by both an Indian Captain and an Expat Captain and instead of alternating PIC and SIC each leg for example, the Indian will just have to be SIC.
Shot themselves in foot once again, don't you think?
Last edited by johnriketes; 8th Mar 2008 at 11:05.
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Expat FO in India
Hi there all,
I´ve also heard about this new Indian law. From the first of June 2008, no expats will be allowed as FO. Initially I´m not gonna get worried, because my airline has not told me a word on this, but..Does that mean the we´re gonna be fired by the first of June?
Regards
I´ve also heard about this new Indian law. From the first of June 2008, no expats will be allowed as FO. Initially I´m not gonna get worried, because my airline has not told me a word on this, but..Does that mean the we´re gonna be fired by the first of June?
Regards
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Where exactly on the DGCA site is this new rule stated? Could someone provide a link to the same?
What then, happens to all the expat F/Os, that Indian companies such as Kingfisher already hired for their A330s and A340s, and IndiGo that currently has the most number of expat F/Os?
Thanks
What then, happens to all the expat F/Os, that Indian companies such as Kingfisher already hired for their A330s and A340s, and IndiGo that currently has the most number of expat F/Os?
Thanks
Thread Starter
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Expat FO info. not official as yet !!!
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Is this decision of Civil Aviation Ministry going to be enforced by DGCA? Going by the letter received by vmaunu from Jet it seems very likely that airlines will have to implement the deadline of 1st June 2008.
However, I feel that to bring in such a rule at short notice is unfair to Expat F/Os, specially those that are in the middle of their contracts. Its ok to ask airlines not to recruit expat F/Os or renew contracts but to terminate them before expiry is uncalled for.
Though I am an Indian F/O flying wide-body aircraft for an Indian major and sympathise with the unemployed pilots here, this callous attitude of DGCA and its master stinks. Imagine the plight of those who have relocated here, maybe some with family. And how will this reflect on our country as a whole?
Aeronotix.
However, I feel that to bring in such a rule at short notice is unfair to Expat F/Os, specially those that are in the middle of their contracts. Its ok to ask airlines not to recruit expat F/Os or renew contracts but to terminate them before expiry is uncalled for.
Though I am an Indian F/O flying wide-body aircraft for an Indian major and sympathise with the unemployed pilots here, this callous attitude of DGCA and its master stinks. Imagine the plight of those who have relocated here, maybe some with family. And how will this reflect on our country as a whole?
Aeronotix.
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What a shame......
What is DGCA trying to do?? 
"The situation is such that the Directorate General of Civil Aviation has had to put a rider on hiring expat pilots to protect interest of Indian co-pilots. Airlines have to submit an exit plan for expat commanders and training schedule for Indian co-pilots each time they need DGCA nod for hiring a foreign flier. "
Full article: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/B...ow/2802725.cms
Well how can this be a win-win situation? By reducing costs and hiring freshers who are out of a pilot factory is just going to add more problems.
Really feel that the right approach should have been that given the high costs in retaining experienced crews, airlines in india should follow the training pattern as that of SIA cadet pilot programme. What a way to reduce costs......
Shame on DGCA......
"The situation is such that the Directorate General of Civil Aviation has had to put a rider on hiring expat pilots to protect interest of Indian co-pilots. Airlines have to submit an exit plan for expat commanders and training schedule for Indian co-pilots each time they need DGCA nod for hiring a foreign flier. "
Full article: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/B...ow/2802725.cms
Well how can this be a win-win situation? By reducing costs and hiring freshers who are out of a pilot factory is just going to add more problems.
Really feel that the right approach should have been that given the high costs in retaining experienced crews, airlines in india should follow the training pattern as that of SIA cadet pilot programme. What a way to reduce costs......
Shame on DGCA......
Join Date: Nov 2004
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An exit plan in itself is not necessarily bad as long as it's not a hasty one.
Most countries (USA in particular) has similar restrictions on hiring of foreign applicants (non-immigrants). They have to submit documentation that there are no U.S. applicants capable of the job before a work visa can be granted.
Not much in India is black and white, just plenty of shades of grey!
Expats Capts really do not have much to worry about. The worst case scenario is that they will be asked to depart in 3-5 years. By that time all the age 60 guys will have reached 65. And if India does not want expats, then China, ME, Korea, Vietnam and others will be more than glad to take them as quickly as they can, with improved terms and conditions. If the EU relaxes its work rules for U.S pilots then that will open up a whole new job market.
Ask any expat Capt who is registered with a contract agency. They will tell you that offers are plenty if you have time in type and PIC on the favoured aircraft in use.
Most countries (USA in particular) has similar restrictions on hiring of foreign applicants (non-immigrants). They have to submit documentation that there are no U.S. applicants capable of the job before a work visa can be granted.
Not much in India is black and white, just plenty of shades of grey!
Expats Capts really do not have much to worry about. The worst case scenario is that they will be asked to depart in 3-5 years. By that time all the age 60 guys will have reached 65. And if India does not want expats, then China, ME, Korea, Vietnam and others will be more than glad to take them as quickly as they can, with improved terms and conditions. If the EU relaxes its work rules for U.S pilots then that will open up a whole new job market.
Ask any expat Capt who is registered with a contract agency. They will tell you that offers are plenty if you have time in type and PIC on the favoured aircraft in use.
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An exit plan in itself is not necessarily bad as long as it's not a hasty one.
It also keeps the politicians and their constituents happy election time!
Most countries (USA in particular) has similar restrictions on hiring of foreign applicants (non-immigrants). They have to submit documentation proving that there are no U.S. applicants capable of the job before a work visa can be granted. Not much in India is black and white, just plenty of shades of grey!
Expats Capts really do not have much to worry about. The worst case scenario is that they will be asked to depart in 3-5 years. I think very few want to be here for more than that time anyway. By that time all the age 60 guys will have reached 65. And if India does not want expats, then China, ME, Korea, Vietnam and others will be more than glad to take them as quickly as they can, with improved terms and conditions. If the EU relaxes its work rules for U.S pilots then that will open up a whole new job market.
Ask any expat Capt who is registered with a contract agency. They will tell you that offers are plenty and keep coming weekly if you have time in type and PIC on the favoured aircraft in use.
It also keeps the politicians and their constituents happy election time!
Most countries (USA in particular) has similar restrictions on hiring of foreign applicants (non-immigrants). They have to submit documentation proving that there are no U.S. applicants capable of the job before a work visa can be granted. Not much in India is black and white, just plenty of shades of grey!
Expats Capts really do not have much to worry about. The worst case scenario is that they will be asked to depart in 3-5 years. I think very few want to be here for more than that time anyway. By that time all the age 60 guys will have reached 65. And if India does not want expats, then China, ME, Korea, Vietnam and others will be more than glad to take them as quickly as they can, with improved terms and conditions. If the EU relaxes its work rules for U.S pilots then that will open up a whole new job market.
Ask any expat Capt who is registered with a contract agency. They will tell you that offers are plenty and keep coming weekly if you have time in type and PIC on the favoured aircraft in use.
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Assisted T/O and Landings
Airlines in the USA also have similar restrictions regarding T/O & Ldgs for new Capts and it depends on the airline and it's OPSSPECS approved by the FAA.
A new Capt usually has to do all T/O and Landings for the first 100 hrs on type as PIC. There are also Green on Green restrictions. A new Capt with less than 75 hrs on type cannot be paired with an F/O with less than 75 hrs on type. Furthermore there are many conditions listed in the in the FOM where the Capt is required to do the T/O & LDG. If these conditions are not an issue the the Capt may give the F/O the T/O or Landing.
A new Capt usually has to do all T/O and Landings for the first 100 hrs on type as PIC. There are also Green on Green restrictions. A new Capt with less than 75 hrs on type cannot be paired with an F/O with less than 75 hrs on type. Furthermore there are many conditions listed in the in the FOM where the Capt is required to do the T/O & LDG. If these conditions are not an issue the the Capt may give the F/O the T/O or Landing.
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CNN
I sincerely hope Indian airlines and DGCA resist to go the same way Korea went on early 80's: they made the headlines with smoking debris and human remains many times, due to lack of experienced enough crews.
Lessons from the past must be learned.
The price of a disaster is high enough.
Lessons from the past must be learned.
The price of a disaster is high enough.
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I'm a bit confused...FATA is applicable to expatriates...foreigners...eventually FATA holders will be asked to leave ..so then what happens to the Indians flying on FATA ???as far as I know there is nothing in writing about Indians flying on FATA...just the whims of a couple of people in the DGCA...it's a miracle things function in this country despite no system being in place...I think it's high time someone complains to ICAO ..tell them of how the system...or lack of it ...in India...on another note...in 1994 DGCA said that Maths and Physics were mandatory at senior school..now some senior chap in the ministry has a kid who cant pass math and physics so they're changing the rules...now everyone can fly...and add to the umemployment of CPLs in the country...
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Rolling Rules !!!!!
"in 1994 DGCA said that Maths and Physics were mandatory at senior school..now some senior chap in the ministry has a kid who cant pass math and physics so they're changing the rules."
That is a good observation, since India probably produces the most college graduates / engineers/doctors per annum, compared to any other country in the world.
Even if the lower flight time entry requirements are justified, its strange that educational requirements for a CPL and an airline job are being lowered.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...ow/2820933.cms
That is a good observation, since India probably produces the most college graduates / engineers/doctors per annum, compared to any other country in the world.
Even if the lower flight time entry requirements are justified, its strange that educational requirements for a CPL and an airline job are being lowered.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...ow/2820933.cms
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well I hope the DGCA and the Ministry has the Balls to pull up the airlines that do that....it's high time some one stand up and tell the Indian carriers..Enough is Enough...start following the rules....
