Indian govt moves to protect Indian student pilots
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Indian govt moves to protect Indian student pilots
Hi
Just came across this article.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/F...ow/2695513.cms
Shouldnt this change be a gradual and natural change.
Most of the Indian guys training abroad cant see beyond an airline job.
But then again GA scene in India is not as big as the western countries.
Your comments please.
Just came across this article.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/F...ow/2695513.cms
Shouldnt this change be a gradual and natural change.
Most of the Indian guys training abroad cant see beyond an airline job.
But then again GA scene in India is not as big as the western countries.
Your comments please.
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I don't think the article addresses the core issue in that how can the Govt protect 5,000 odd student pilots for jobs that don't exist or are not qualified for? No one doubts the fact that expats will be phased out eventually, but only as the Indian pilots gain their experience, hours, and command. Until then, protecting the jobs of these lads/ladies does not seem particularly relevant. Now if the Govt wants to pay their salaries while they wait, that's a different story. If there is a surplus of low time F/O's, there will be a wait time for employment for many new graduates from flying schools. I think most expats are realistic in their expections of being here. I think submitting a plan of training etc seems to be more of a polictical move.
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You VILL comply!
Quoted from article ...
DGCA chief Kanu Gohain said: "Before they hire an expat pilot, airlines will need to tell us their induction and training programmes for Indians. Unless this is specified, they won’t be allowed to just meet their requirement by hiring foreigners alone. Airlines have to get back shortly with their replies. And if they don't, we have ways to make them comply."
...
With an attitude like that, he'll have NO PROBLEM phasing out expats! Geez!
DGCA chief Kanu Gohain said: "Before they hire an expat pilot, airlines will need to tell us their induction and training programmes for Indians. Unless this is specified, they won’t be allowed to just meet their requirement by hiring foreigners alone. Airlines have to get back shortly with their replies. And if they don't, we have ways to make them comply."
...
With an attitude like that, he'll have NO PROBLEM phasing out expats! Geez!
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Not A surprise !!!
Phasing out expat pilots has been going on for sometime. The south american and east europe pilots were used until dgca
found out that they did not have english speaking abilities. US pilots over 60 were legal until DGCA found out that they were not valid to fly in India. Well since the age 65 rule has been approved in the US, i guess they had to come up with something new. There were also rumors about expats having to do the dreaded indian medical which is not in the best interest of a foreign pilot, since it could cause numerous problems for future employment, anywhere. I hope that this is a wakeup call for some of you'll who have made some drastic changes with great hope for the future.
found out that they did not have english speaking abilities. US pilots over 60 were legal until DGCA found out that they were not valid to fly in India. Well since the age 65 rule has been approved in the US, i guess they had to come up with something new. There were also rumors about expats having to do the dreaded indian medical which is not in the best interest of a foreign pilot, since it could cause numerous problems for future employment, anywhere. I hope that this is a wakeup call for some of you'll who have made some drastic changes with great hope for the future.
Last edited by flightknight; 13th Jan 2008 at 08:37. Reason: aaa
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I think what DGCA is trying here is to ensure the Airlines have a plan in place to get Indian pilots in the long run & not rely only on Expats.
Considering the Expansion in Aviation out here.It makes sense.
regds
MEL
Considering the Expansion in Aviation out here.It makes sense.
regds
MEL
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Well the head of your DGCA sounds like a real brain surgeon.
The reason you need expat pilots and will always need them is twofold.
Firstly it's a numbers game; you won't be able to train enough pilots to crew the number of aircraft on order; certainly not to sit in the LHS. If you do upgrade inexperienced FOs you will have aircraft crashes. That brings us to the second reason (same as Korean) which is experience and safety.
You need us; you can't get around it but we will make you pay through the nose for it. We will push the pay rates up (simple supply and demand), and force you to base us off-shore. Thanks chaps!
The reason you need expat pilots and will always need them is twofold.
Firstly it's a numbers game; you won't be able to train enough pilots to crew the number of aircraft on order; certainly not to sit in the LHS. If you do upgrade inexperienced FOs you will have aircraft crashes. That brings us to the second reason (same as Korean) which is experience and safety.
You need us; you can't get around it but we will make you pay through the nose for it. We will push the pay rates up (simple supply and demand), and force you to base us off-shore. Thanks chaps!
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the newpapers are starting to print articles such as why are the expats being hired when there are indian commercial pilots. they really don't explain there's a BIG difference between the indian pilots available and expats>> years and years of more experience!
its just a political move, very sure backed by the present ruling party. their popularity seems to decreasing as they have "made significant efforts" but not enough.
Aviation development is something the present party is proud of... as there are so many jobs being created because of this.
There is nothing else really that the government is proud of besides the aviation growth story. And they don't want the media to be highlighting the surplus of pilots that is existing.
bottom line is, expats are here to stay!! (unless we hear dgca lets 250hours pilots become captains
its just a political move, very sure backed by the present ruling party. their popularity seems to decreasing as they have "made significant efforts" but not enough.
Aviation development is something the present party is proud of... as there are so many jobs being created because of this.
There is nothing else really that the government is proud of besides the aviation growth story. And they don't want the media to be highlighting the surplus of pilots that is existing.
bottom line is, expats are here to stay!! (unless we hear dgca lets 250hours pilots become captains
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A whole lot of posturing by the DGCA (what's new).
This requirement has been around for a long long time. But asking airlines to put a time frame on expats' tenures is flirting with danger. You can't rush the development of student pilots/first officers by mandating strict limits for expat contracts. This has to be done at a reasonable pace with no external pressures.
You can kick and scream all you want but expats are here to stay.
Sheds some light on their mentality.
This requirement has been around for a long long time. But asking airlines to put a time frame on expats' tenures is flirting with danger. You can't rush the development of student pilots/first officers by mandating strict limits for expat contracts. This has to be done at a reasonable pace with no external pressures.
You can kick and scream all you want but expats are here to stay.
Airlines have to get back shortly with their replies. And if they don't, we have ways to make them comply.
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things at DGCA will never change....
India is the only 3rd world with excellent safety std's and by forcing airlines to push back the highly qualified expat capt's, TRI/TRE's we indians are creating an unsafe enviorment.
Agreed airlines like Jet and Kingfisher has no intentions to run an expensive cadet pilot program untill forced by the DGCA to do so....to make statements like...Quote:
Airlines have to get back shortly with their replies. And if they don't, we have ways to make them comply.
Its just low of the DGCA.....
India is the only 3rd world with excellent safety std's and by forcing airlines to push back the highly qualified expat capt's, TRI/TRE's we indians are creating an unsafe enviorment.
Agreed airlines like Jet and Kingfisher has no intentions to run an expensive cadet pilot program untill forced by the DGCA to do so....to make statements like...Quote:
Airlines have to get back shortly with their replies. And if they don't, we have ways to make them comply.
Its just low of the DGCA.....
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Timetable
Well, the "timetable" is a political ploy and will undoubtably have to revised ... and revised ... and revised ... almost forever as things stand. If the newspapers and politicians ask why there are so many expats, the DGCA can point to this phasing out schedule and reduce the pressure. The smart move would be to lessen restrictions on general aviation (almost nonexistent here) and create a groundswell of training and experience. CFI's could teach for a couple of years, then advance to the right seat of a turboprop, then up the line. We'd have 1500 hour f/o's in Boeings who actually know how to fly and how to work as a crewmember. Don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen.
Contract competition from China is really heating up and I think India is going to have to work (i. e., pay more money) to keep many expats from disappearing. Our xenophobic DGCA chief may get his wish ... sooner than he expects and sooner than the airlines can afford. No, I don't think safety will be compromised - and give India credit for a good record - but growth will be constrained with attendant job stagnation.
Contract competition from China is really heating up and I think India is going to have to work (i. e., pay more money) to keep many expats from disappearing. Our xenophobic DGCA chief may get his wish ... sooner than he expects and sooner than the airlines can afford. No, I don't think safety will be compromised - and give India credit for a good record - but growth will be constrained with attendant job stagnation.
Last edited by Rotorhead1026; 14th Jan 2008 at 06:27.
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a different point
Hello all.
I do agree that the expat "experienced" pilot(TRE/TRI/Captain) is here to stay and his/her experience ,skills, training necessary to sustain the growth in Indian aviation.
But what has irked many including myself in Indian aviation is a group of airlines(private) hiring expat co-pilots....initially the point being made was we need trained,type rated and experienced co-pilots now , otherwise our aircraft will be parked.But hiring fresh foreign CPL holders and sending them to get typed and train them on-line while Indian nationals(CPL holders) are available is criminal .DGCA has taken notice of this and therefore the new directive.I cannot really understand why airlines tried this stunt , it does not make any (economic, political, flight safety,regulatory etc.etc.) sense....
masalama.
I do agree that the expat "experienced" pilot(TRE/TRI/Captain) is here to stay and his/her experience ,skills, training necessary to sustain the growth in Indian aviation.
But what has irked many including myself in Indian aviation is a group of airlines(private) hiring expat co-pilots....initially the point being made was we need trained,type rated and experienced co-pilots now , otherwise our aircraft will be parked.But hiring fresh foreign CPL holders and sending them to get typed and train them on-line while Indian nationals(CPL holders) are available is criminal .DGCA has taken notice of this and therefore the new directive.I cannot really understand why airlines tried this stunt , it does not make any (economic, political, flight safety,regulatory etc.etc.) sense....
masalama.
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I do agree with the previous post. If you have any qualified Indian applicant for any position within the airline, then they should be offered due consideration. Hiring a low time expat F/O while there are equal number of Indian available makes no sense at all. Now if they require high time expat F/Os' with time in type (because of insurance requirements etc) then it makes sense. Sometimes this is a situation that arises when a new aircraft shows up on the property and the new Capts have no time in type.
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masalama,
i did not know there are expat f/o being hired without type rating! then it makes sense for DGCA to do this! damn it! i never thought i'd agree with anything that DGCA does!
i did not know there are expat f/o being hired without type rating! then it makes sense for DGCA to do this! damn it! i never thought i'd agree with anything that DGCA does!
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They were, but for a very brief while. Situation has changed very fast expat f'o's not required anymore.
Doesn't affect NRI's etc. Anyone with PIO/OCI has the right to employment as any Indian citizen (although couple of the private carriers think otherwise).
Doesn't affect NRI's etc. Anyone with PIO/OCI has the right to employment as any Indian citizen (although couple of the private carriers think otherwise).
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Hello all:
This is my first time posting here. I monitor this forum very closely as I am of Indian origin and have lots of friends in the airlines in India.I really don't have a dog in this fight but I would like to add a little historical prespective. Some of you "older" young pilots in India might remember this.
Back in the 70's when Mrs. Gandhi was PM, there was an association created under the auspices of her younger son ,Sanjay ,who was an avid GA pilot and, later, lost his life in a crash. The association was created to protect the interests of the thousands of unemployed pilots who had trained in the civilian environment. They felt (rightly so) that the system was unfair to them .The only two airlines(AI and IA back then) would readily hire an ex airforce guy but not give the civilians much consideration. In the associtaion's opinion, guys(ex. IAF) who had trained for free , served a twenty year period and acquired a pension,took only the regs. exam and then, walked into a job with the big two,whereas they, who had spent a ton of money(unbelievably, about Rs 40,000/- then for a CPL) were ignored unless they had influence.Ahh!! Influence!The bane of the East!!
Long story short, Mrs. G levelled the playing field and all ex serviceman had to take all the tests just like other "normal" pilots,take the flying tests and join the line. Did not change anything but certainly made it tougher for the ex. mil. guys to compete.Who won ? I still haven't figured that out.
I guess,with a few variations, the avaition world in India has come a full circle. Once again, the Govt. is stepping in to "protect" the underdogs(due apologies).Will they implement it?absolutely.Will it be successful?
.
Thanks for listening/reading.
Alt3.
This is my first time posting here. I monitor this forum very closely as I am of Indian origin and have lots of friends in the airlines in India.I really don't have a dog in this fight but I would like to add a little historical prespective. Some of you "older" young pilots in India might remember this.
Back in the 70's when Mrs. Gandhi was PM, there was an association created under the auspices of her younger son ,Sanjay ,who was an avid GA pilot and, later, lost his life in a crash. The association was created to protect the interests of the thousands of unemployed pilots who had trained in the civilian environment. They felt (rightly so) that the system was unfair to them .The only two airlines(AI and IA back then) would readily hire an ex airforce guy but not give the civilians much consideration. In the associtaion's opinion, guys(ex. IAF) who had trained for free , served a twenty year period and acquired a pension,took only the regs. exam and then, walked into a job with the big two,whereas they, who had spent a ton of money(unbelievably, about Rs 40,000/- then for a CPL) were ignored unless they had influence.Ahh!! Influence!The bane of the East!!
Long story short, Mrs. G levelled the playing field and all ex serviceman had to take all the tests just like other "normal" pilots,take the flying tests and join the line. Did not change anything but certainly made it tougher for the ex. mil. guys to compete.Who won ? I still haven't figured that out.
I guess,with a few variations, the avaition world in India has come a full circle. Once again, the Govt. is stepping in to "protect" the underdogs(due apologies).Will they implement it?absolutely.Will it be successful?
.Thanks for listening/reading.
Alt3.
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a3. As I said all smoke and mirrors. They have to appease the local populace. But practically not possible to do at this time. But step back and think why we have this scenario right now. If Indian CPL holders were not too picky about starting off on the ATR's, CRJ's etc. expat F/O's would never have been a reality in India. Correct me if I am wrong but the initial F/O's were only for the smaller size a/c and then it slowly opened the door for all a/c. So maybe a little introspection from the pilots themselves will lead us to the real cause for the scenario.
Even now there is this amazing sense of entitlement amongst fresh guys that they HAVE to get on the Boeing or Airbus. I'm tired of telling everyone I come across that grab whetever they give you cos pretty soon it's gonna be slim pickings for everybody.
Even now there is this amazing sense of entitlement amongst fresh guys that they HAVE to get on the Boeing or Airbus. I'm tired of telling everyone I come across that grab whetever they give you cos pretty soon it's gonna be slim pickings for everybody.
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a step for citizens
why not
governemt of india has to do and take the step,
like in EU +uk+++++
you need right to work ......at least india is giving you the chance to work ....... and also giving too much at the moment......
governemt of india has to do and take the step,
like in EU +uk+++++
you need right to work ......at least india is giving you the chance to work ....... and also giving too much at the moment......
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re av8r76
Fully agree that newjoiners need to appreciate the fact that getting on a turboprop with 200 hours is a dream come true in many countries of the world ...but I need to clarify something here regarding the hiring of non-typed foreign copilots...two programmes offered by our airlines come to mind...
1.Indigo and simcenter: type of aircraft A320.
2.Jet airways and JAA licensed pilots:B737.
Both these programmes seem to be in the doldrums right now but the point being they were not recruiting for the ATR/CRJ type of aircraft....it's good that some sense has prevailed as the supply of fresh CPL holders has ballooned...effectively we were offering a cadet programme(fully paid by candidate) to foreign nationals which is unheard of anywhere else....
1.Indigo and simcenter: type of aircraft A320.
2.Jet airways and JAA licensed pilots:B737.
Both these programmes seem to be in the doldrums right now but the point being they were not recruiting for the ATR/CRJ type of aircraft....it's good that some sense has prevailed as the supply of fresh CPL holders has ballooned...effectively we were offering a cadet programme(fully paid by candidate) to foreign nationals which is unheard of anywhere else....