Indian govt moves to protect Indian student pilots
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Indian expats
I would like to advise caution on the part of nationalism statements. Considering the fact that a lot of professional folks from India are employed in various sectors in other countries. The NRI folks are an integral contributing force in the US, Australia, Europe, Canada etc.
If you have not done your pilot licenses in the US or elsewhere, i guess you may miss the gist of my post.
If you have not done your pilot licenses in the US or elsewhere, i guess you may miss the gist of my post.
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FATA
its only in india where pilots fly on FATA
no indian is flying on FATA in any country.
for a job any body needs
1. right to work
2. licence to apply
3. get salary down the line
but in india
1...............
2. ............
3 job on line....salary well above line.
is it safe in this situation?
dgca/govt of india is always in trying to make aviation a stable sector espacially after experiencing shut down of many operators in 1992 and leaving industry and the pilots on the road as many airlines folded over night eating away public money.
DGCA is trying to stream line for aviation, same standreds of training and licencing as far as indian regitered a/c flying goes.
and so trying to ensure with the airlines to have there own training set ups, to ensure long term stability.
no indian is flying on FATA in any country.
for a job any body needs
1. right to work
2. licence to apply
3. get salary down the line
but in india
1...............
2. ............
3 job on line....salary well above line.
is it safe in this situation?
dgca/govt of india is always in trying to make aviation a stable sector espacially after experiencing shut down of many operators in 1992 and leaving industry and the pilots on the road as many airlines folded over night eating away public money.
DGCA is trying to stream line for aviation, same standreds of training and licencing as far as indian regitered a/c flying goes.
and so trying to ensure with the airlines to have there own training set ups, to ensure long term stability.
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FATA is---Foreign Air Crew Temporary Authorization. It is initially given for 2 years and can be extended at the discretion of the DGCA.
The expat aircrew issue has been blown out of proportion. It is simply supply and demand. Once the Indian crews are trained we will be out of here. There is no conspiracy for a hostile takeover of the industry! It is great that the Govt. wants to protect jobs for locals. Every government on the planet should be doing that.
But for right now if the 800 odd expats left, the only positive outcome would be--no congestion in Delhi, Bangalore & Mumbai. The negatives would far outweigh the positives in terms of growth, stability and employment. There would be plenty of shiny parked airplanes.
P.S. FATA for Indian pilots overseas----Right now there is not a need, but I guarantee if there is a shortage of pilots in the USA/EU, they will recruit Indian pilots as well. If you in a "high demand" profession, overseas countries are still actively recruiting and providing visas for doctors, nurses, engineers, scientists etc. That in essence is the equivalent of a FATA for those professions. Aviation has not made the list yet, but might likely do so in the next ten years. Many Americans have lost jobs to India because of call centre's etc being opened in India. They were not happy about it but it made economic sense for corporate america to do so. There is a recession in the USA which everyone keeps denying. Times are going to get tough globally.
Lets all hold hands and sing Kumbaya!!
The expat aircrew issue has been blown out of proportion. It is simply supply and demand. Once the Indian crews are trained we will be out of here. There is no conspiracy for a hostile takeover of the industry! It is great that the Govt. wants to protect jobs for locals. Every government on the planet should be doing that.
But for right now if the 800 odd expats left, the only positive outcome would be--no congestion in Delhi, Bangalore & Mumbai. The negatives would far outweigh the positives in terms of growth, stability and employment. There would be plenty of shiny parked airplanes.
P.S. FATA for Indian pilots overseas----Right now there is not a need, but I guarantee if there is a shortage of pilots in the USA/EU, they will recruit Indian pilots as well. If you in a "high demand" profession, overseas countries are still actively recruiting and providing visas for doctors, nurses, engineers, scientists etc. That in essence is the equivalent of a FATA for those professions. Aviation has not made the list yet, but might likely do so in the next ten years. Many Americans have lost jobs to India because of call centre's etc being opened in India. They were not happy about it but it made economic sense for corporate america to do so. There is a recession in the USA which everyone keeps denying. Times are going to get tough globally.
Lets all hold hands and sing Kumbaya!!
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The 9W non type rated expats came with 734 and older TR's and were converted to 738's. I met a guy on my layover from SAS who was flying India only in the winters when the aviation scene slowed down back home. He had been on the right seat for almost 8 yrs. So they had experience b4 getting on board. And indeed there was a time albeit a VERY short time that there was a near non existent pool of Indian CPL guys available which forced the airlines to fill the gap temporarily.
As for the Indigo SO drive, I believe it is also open to Indian CPL/ATP guys with even less requirements compared to expats.
For all practical purposes, the DGCA is actually asking airlines to slash costs. With expats costing more than the locals, don't you think the airlines, already operating on wafer thin margins, would do this without any external cajoling?
As stated time and time again, it is a purely supply/demand situation which the airlines have little control over. You can't control either of these even if you are the DGCA. Market forces dictate the need for expats and if the DGCA moves aggressively to curb this then we will, as stated eloquently by Nevrekar, have no congestion in DEL,BOM or BLR.
As for the Indigo SO drive, I believe it is also open to Indian CPL/ATP guys with even less requirements compared to expats.
For all practical purposes, the DGCA is actually asking airlines to slash costs. With expats costing more than the locals, don't you think the airlines, already operating on wafer thin margins, would do this without any external cajoling?
As stated time and time again, it is a purely supply/demand situation which the airlines have little control over. You can't control either of these even if you are the DGCA. Market forces dictate the need for expats and if the DGCA moves aggressively to curb this then we will, as stated eloquently by Nevrekar, have no congestion in DEL,BOM or BLR.
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Hello!!!! "you need us". its the other way round. you have been siting without jobs and are coming to india and in most cases it is the riff-raff who is coming here. Except for the Airbus/Boeing TREs rest are of questionable quality and certainly not better than the pilots available in india. my guess is - take the hint mate and head home as soon as possible. happy landings in whatever country you belong to. if you are so keen on working here, how about having a quid pro quo - asking your airlines to open jobs for pilots from india considering the pilots here are so much better than you guys.
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hold on guys..
whoa nada1234 a little extreme there ...
I think nevrekar brings up a good point regarding high demand profession which is the case with pilots in India right now.Pilots are not in demand in the US /Europe currently but Indians are being hired in other high demand professions.
av8r says...."there was a near non existent pool of Indian CPL guys available which forced the airlines to fill the gap temporarily".
If it was a temporary plug the hole measure, fair enuff , but it did definitely catch many a local pilot's attention... thanks for the clarification...
masalama.
I think nevrekar brings up a good point regarding high demand profession which is the case with pilots in India right now.Pilots are not in demand in the US /Europe currently but Indians are being hired in other high demand professions.
av8r says...."there was a near non existent pool of Indian CPL guys available which forced the airlines to fill the gap temporarily".
If it was a temporary plug the hole measure, fair enuff , but it did definitely catch many a local pilot's attention... thanks for the clarification...
masalama.
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Very funny, getsetgo and nada - talking through your hat with your friends at home might sound impressive enough for them to believe you, but this is an international forum. I know Indian pilots who have flown on the equivalent of FATAs outside India - validations issued by local CAAs for contractors are quite common, I presume you know what ICAO is? Foreign contractors get Indian security clearance and Indian work visas.
If the contractors are not up to scratch, blame the cheapness of most Indian airlines who refuse to pay the money to do a sim check on candidates and then expect them to be a 1-man cockpit, unlike many other airlines around the world who use contractors.
You speak of common standards and training, again I ask have you never heard of ICAO? Salary well "above line" is fantasy, especially with current US dollar rates, and if you think Indian pilots salaries would be what they have risen to now without the salaries that have to be paid to attract the contractors, you live on a different planet.
No-one is denying that there are, as Nevrekar says, over 800 expat pilots in India, earning salaries that are comparable to contracts elsewhere. And I agree that expat F/Os are madness with the amount of Indian wannabes coming through flying schools currently. But please spare us the fantasy that there are hundreds of experienced, current unemployed expat pilots sitting on their asses all around the world just waiting for an opportunity to come to India to drink your beer and take your jobs at salaries 10 times what they earn at home, and that Indians are not given any opportunity to emigrate and work at competitive wages around the rest of the world - where do you think the phrase NRI comes from? There is shortage of experienced Captains worldwide at the minute (Europe also), but there is no shortage of wannabe low timers, as some of your friends with stars in their eyes who are getting the money together to go abroad and train and think they can fall into the right hand seat of an A320 or B737 will shortly find out.
One of these days (not as far away as you think), there will be Indian pilots going for expat jobs again, and you'd better hope they are more informed than you are. The best thing that the DGCA could do at the minute is try to ensure that the wannabe Indian pilots coming back from training looking for work are actually trained properly - many of them are simply useless to the Indian airlines as they stand.
If the contractors are not up to scratch, blame the cheapness of most Indian airlines who refuse to pay the money to do a sim check on candidates and then expect them to be a 1-man cockpit, unlike many other airlines around the world who use contractors.
You speak of common standards and training, again I ask have you never heard of ICAO? Salary well "above line" is fantasy, especially with current US dollar rates, and if you think Indian pilots salaries would be what they have risen to now without the salaries that have to be paid to attract the contractors, you live on a different planet.
No-one is denying that there are, as Nevrekar says, over 800 expat pilots in India, earning salaries that are comparable to contracts elsewhere. And I agree that expat F/Os are madness with the amount of Indian wannabes coming through flying schools currently. But please spare us the fantasy that there are hundreds of experienced, current unemployed expat pilots sitting on their asses all around the world just waiting for an opportunity to come to India to drink your beer and take your jobs at salaries 10 times what they earn at home, and that Indians are not given any opportunity to emigrate and work at competitive wages around the rest of the world - where do you think the phrase NRI comes from? There is shortage of experienced Captains worldwide at the minute (Europe also), but there is no shortage of wannabe low timers, as some of your friends with stars in their eyes who are getting the money together to go abroad and train and think they can fall into the right hand seat of an A320 or B737 will shortly find out.
One of these days (not as far away as you think), there will be Indian pilots going for expat jobs again, and you'd better hope they are more informed than you are. The best thing that the DGCA could do at the minute is try to ensure that the wannabe Indian pilots coming back from training looking for work are actually trained properly - many of them are simply useless to the Indian airlines as they stand.
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retraining
DGCA recognised retraining CPL pilots when they return for jobs in india giving due consideration the quality of training or there induction to jobs,hence DGCA sends message to all airlines to set up training programme.
i think india is very welcoming country...any body can offer you emple of every thing you need, not only beer.
i undersatnd you are doing your medicals in india so you know a lot about ICAO.
Lets have more info on it.
and if some company didnot pay for your sim etc. means you can go to court being in the best democracy on the globe.
thats what i do.
good luck
i think india is very welcoming country...any body can offer you emple of every thing you need, not only beer.
i undersatnd you are doing your medicals in india so you know a lot about ICAO.
Lets have more info on it.
and if some company didnot pay for your sim etc. means you can go to court being in the best democracy on the globe.
thats what i do.
good luck
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over 800 expat pilots in India,
they do not renew there licences in india
but given FATA by dgca
no other ICAO CONTRACTING STATE ISSUES FATA
if any let us know.
over 800 expat pilots in India, earning salaries that are comparable to contracts elsewhere. And I agree .
it is easy bcz there is no medical check in india.
otherwise where is the need to work in india when jobs are all over and paying good money in euro as well.
but given FATA by dgca
no other ICAO CONTRACTING STATE ISSUES FATA
if any let us know.
over 800 expat pilots in India, earning salaries that are comparable to contracts elsewhere. And I agree .
it is easy bcz there is no medical check in india.
otherwise where is the need to work in india when jobs are all over and paying good money in euro as well.
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just to enlighten you
The crews working on FATA in India are reposible for keeping their respective licences current . There are plent of doctors in India certified by FAA to carry out medicals . Dgca requires for you to have at least 3 months of medical validity before issuing anything. So be nice and appreciate the fact that we're allowed to work here without a major fuss.
happy landings
The crews working on FATA in India are reposible for keeping their respective licences current . There are plent of doctors in India certified by FAA to carry out medicals . Dgca requires for you to have at least 3 months of medical validity before issuing anything. So be nice and appreciate the fact that we're allowed to work here without a major fuss.
happy landings
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Nada--Not sure where you work and who you fly with but Spicejet has been hiring guys, most of whom have spent 20 plus year at major airlines in the US, UK and other parts of the world. I don't think you would consider that rif-raff. It is true that the age 60 guys could not fly with a part 121 airline in the US until now, but corporate flying is open to anyone as long as they can pass their FAA medical. We have B747/737/777/727/757 guys from United, Qantas, Korean Air, Alaska, Continental, AirTran, Garuda etc etc.
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licencing is the diffrence
basically there is the diffrence ,not the money or planes ,nor dollors or euro salary.
its the ease of doing flying based on FAA standreds,
instead DGCA standrerds.
{this is where probably DGCA looking to streamline licencing part by asking airlines to have training setup and plans. one licence one state.}
otherwise its very difficult to see why pilots get attrected to india when there are so many jobs for them arround the world and paying best salaries.
considering hight cost of operations all the airlines in big time losses,
and all the airlines have big order book for dilivery of planes.
demand and supply.......
there is big demand for a/c espacially the shiny aeroplanes arround the world, and this is making profit by way of resale/ or leaseing out the a/c to international mkt.flying a/c is making losses in india due to fuel cost and infrastucture. leasing out is making bussiness sence.
And this will decongest not only air , roads and less polution in cities.
its the ease of doing flying based on FAA standreds,
instead DGCA standrerds.
{this is where probably DGCA looking to streamline licencing part by asking airlines to have training setup and plans. one licence one state.}
otherwise its very difficult to see why pilots get attrected to india when there are so many jobs for them arround the world and paying best salaries.
considering hight cost of operations all the airlines in big time losses,
and all the airlines have big order book for dilivery of planes.
demand and supply.......
there is big demand for a/c espacially the shiny aeroplanes arround the world, and this is making profit by way of resale/ or leaseing out the a/c to international mkt.flying a/c is making losses in india due to fuel cost and infrastucture. leasing out is making bussiness sence.
And this will decongest not only air , roads and less polution in cities.
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Mr.Getsetgo
I have just finished my contract with ICAO contracting state on the FATA.
There are a lot of expats who work on the FATA in my country.
No medical check as well, base on home country license & medical.
The expats can't work in India forever, it depends on you.
The question is - are you ready?
I have just finished my contract with ICAO contracting state on the FATA.
There are a lot of expats who work on the FATA in my country.
No medical check as well, base on home country license & medical.
The expats can't work in India forever, it depends on you.
The question is - are you ready?
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thats india is following since 1934
FATA is followed by india since the inception of civil aviation.
as the topic of this thread and the steps taken by DGCA india are the bases of this discussion.
as it looks, long term vision of DGCA is bringing in more uniform and stable aviation envionment.
as the topic of this thread and the steps taken by DGCA india are the bases of this discussion.
as it looks, long term vision of DGCA is bringing in more uniform and stable aviation envionment.
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"they do not renew there licences in india
but given FATA by dgca
no other ICAO CONTRACTING STATE ISSUES FATA
if any let us know."
Just remind you that I answer to your question.
"it is easy bcz there is no medical check in india."
Does it mean you question why other countries require medical check for expats?
Because they give us there own LICENSE not FATA and I don't think your DGCA want to do that.
but given FATA by dgca
no other ICAO CONTRACTING STATE ISSUES FATA
if any let us know."
Just remind you that I answer to your question.
"it is easy bcz there is no medical check in india."
Does it mean you question why other countries require medical check for expats?
Because they give us there own LICENSE not FATA and I don't think your DGCA want to do that.
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uht sky
first of all if you are happy flying on fata , that i can say happy flying.
i didnot ask you any question, if you are happy where you are its your good luck.
i wish you good luck .
i didnot ask you any question, if you are happy where you are its your good luck.
i wish you good luck .
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I get the sense that some of you are angry at the presence of expats flying here in India. Your anger is misguided. The economic growth in India essentially caught the Government and industry off guard. They did not act on the tremendous "need" for pilots early on, offered very little incentive for folks to enter the field or have programs in place to facilitate the process.
The end result is that there are too few qualified pilots to fill Commander positions. I am sure that every airline is very eager to upgrade an Indian national to Commander when they have the hours and are "ready" to undertake the mission at hand. It is in their best interest to do so. Local lads are here to stay (mostly) while expats are products of a revolving door.
But improved terms and conditions overseas will see some Indian's leaving as well to go to Oman, Qatar, Emirates, Ethihad etc.
Infrastructure mismanagement is a big issue in India. For many years due to a stagnant economy, foreign exchange regulations, India chose not to spend money on infrastructure. Roads and highways that should have been built a decade ago are now being considered. Additionally it does not help when the Govt mode of operation is 1. Ready 2. Fire 3. Aim ! All these take an eventual toll. Look at some of the new airports being considered. They are still being built initially as single runway airports--how does that help capacity?
Salaries--At one point I'm told India had one of the worst pay structures for airline pilots (when compared to the West). By Indian standards it was probably ok still. But thanks in part to the expats on the scene pilots here they are able to receive comparable compensation. A 250 hour Indian F/O can make close to 200,000 rupees a month. That's more than what someone would make at Fedex or UPS their first year there. And these would be guys with minimum 6,000 hrs and 3 landings on the moon! Expats would not come here if they were offered less than what the overseas standard is. Do you blame them? Speaking of which the media hype and late call to arms has caused droves of Indians to get their CPL etc. Now they will return with a fresh CPL with nowhere to go, especially once the growth slows down.
The market is growing leaps and bounds but the bubble has to burst soon. The SENSEX has shown signs of that. Airlines are not immune and cannot keep losing millions expecting to keep growing at the same pace. Someone will have to put the brakes on. When that happens and time passes, you will see the number of expats dwindle to a trickle. I predict that the need for expats will be minimal by 2013 and unfortunately for many young Indian's, unemployment as pilots.
In closing if you are angry, look elsewhere-- and don't shoot the messenger!
The end result is that there are too few qualified pilots to fill Commander positions. I am sure that every airline is very eager to upgrade an Indian national to Commander when they have the hours and are "ready" to undertake the mission at hand. It is in their best interest to do so. Local lads are here to stay (mostly) while expats are products of a revolving door.
But improved terms and conditions overseas will see some Indian's leaving as well to go to Oman, Qatar, Emirates, Ethihad etc.
Infrastructure mismanagement is a big issue in India. For many years due to a stagnant economy, foreign exchange regulations, India chose not to spend money on infrastructure. Roads and highways that should have been built a decade ago are now being considered. Additionally it does not help when the Govt mode of operation is 1. Ready 2. Fire 3. Aim ! All these take an eventual toll. Look at some of the new airports being considered. They are still being built initially as single runway airports--how does that help capacity?
Salaries--At one point I'm told India had one of the worst pay structures for airline pilots (when compared to the West). By Indian standards it was probably ok still. But thanks in part to the expats on the scene pilots here they are able to receive comparable compensation. A 250 hour Indian F/O can make close to 200,000 rupees a month. That's more than what someone would make at Fedex or UPS their first year there. And these would be guys with minimum 6,000 hrs and 3 landings on the moon! Expats would not come here if they were offered less than what the overseas standard is. Do you blame them? Speaking of which the media hype and late call to arms has caused droves of Indians to get their CPL etc. Now they will return with a fresh CPL with nowhere to go, especially once the growth slows down.
The market is growing leaps and bounds but the bubble has to burst soon. The SENSEX has shown signs of that. Airlines are not immune and cannot keep losing millions expecting to keep growing at the same pace. Someone will have to put the brakes on. When that happens and time passes, you will see the number of expats dwindle to a trickle. I predict that the need for expats will be minimal by 2013 and unfortunately for many young Indian's, unemployment as pilots.
In closing if you are angry, look elsewhere-- and don't shoot the messenger!
Last edited by Nevrekar; 24th Jan 2008 at 02:25.
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growth/jobs/licence
considering growth in india, and the govt focus on aviation and infrastructure and the dilivery of a/cs in next 3 years all CPL newcomers will get jobs. and also upgrades as and when they qualify for DGCA norms.
this momentum in aviation will take the aviation through 2020 easily unless companies missmanage funds and continue losing money( yes most likely)
and sell off there aeroplanes to make money.
FATA goes no where and it does not threat any body job opportunity.
Your DGCA is looking at 2020 and enforcing these new ideas on the new airlines from time to time.
this momentum in aviation will take the aviation through 2020 easily unless companies missmanage funds and continue losing money( yes most likely)
and sell off there aeroplanes to make money.
FATA goes no where and it does not threat any body job opportunity.
Your DGCA is looking at 2020 and enforcing these new ideas on the new airlines from time to time.
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for your eyes
Fata is clearance obtained by the operator from DGCA on PLEA{ please/kindly} saying that due to the shortage of crew kindly allow MR. .........work with us till we find own crew meeting the requirement.
this is done by the airlines to save on
ground training at least 2-3 months salary,
No C.R.M. training, no bidding for renewal of the crew licence by the company .
No other must routine courses ........
it saves lot of money for the operator
and same time operator is utalising the crew from day-1
generaly FATA is 6 months valid...can be extended to max of 2 years
(new guidelines by DGCA considering the crew is not going cirtain routine courses )
this is done by the airlines to save on
ground training at least 2-3 months salary,
No C.R.M. training, no bidding for renewal of the crew licence by the company .
No other must routine courses ........
it saves lot of money for the operator
and same time operator is utalising the crew from day-1
generaly FATA is 6 months valid...can be extended to max of 2 years
(new guidelines by DGCA considering the crew is not going cirtain routine courses )