The Truth about the SilkAir MI 185 Disaster
There were significant cultural and professional differences in their background which had led to disagreement and an escalating dispute including the captain pulling the CVR to talk off the record. This accords well with the views that copilots have to learn/be taught on the job. There was background stress on both pilots, but not enough to kill for.
On the fatal flight the captain again pulled the CVR and was presumably therefore the first person to speak, probably saying something that to him was innocuous. Somehow that rapidly lead to one of the pilots over-reacting for the split second that turned everything into unrecoverable disaster.
On the fatal flight the captain again pulled the CVR and was presumably therefore the first person to speak, probably saying something that to him was innocuous. Somehow that rapidly lead to one of the pilots over-reacting for the split second that turned everything into unrecoverable disaster.
If you'd like to take a read of the official NTSC report as released by the Indonesian DGCA, here it is for you to download. Go to section 2.12 General Human Performance Issues
on page 40 of the report where the investigators analysed the relationship between the Captain and the F/O. I'll quote the relevant paragraph here for you if you have difficulty in downloading the NTSC report.
2.12 General Human Performance Issues
This section analyses the general human performance issues such as medical, professional qualification, training, fatigue, impairment, improper in-flight management, etc.
The relationship between the PIC and the F/O was examined. There were no reports of any conflict or difficulties between the pilots prior to the occurrence and before the day of the crash. Based on the available recorded data of the CVR, there was no evidence of any conflict or difficulties between the pilots during the approach and landing into Jakarta, on the ground at Jakarta, and during the accident flight. The infrequent non-flight related conversations between the pilots were also cordial. It was concluded that the investigation did not find any evidence of difficulties in the relationship between the two pilots either during or before the accident flight.
This section analyses the general human performance issues such as medical, professional qualification, training, fatigue, impairment, improper in-flight management, etc.
The relationship between the PIC and the F/O was examined. There were no reports of any conflict or difficulties between the pilots prior to the occurrence and before the day of the crash. Based on the available recorded data of the CVR, there was no evidence of any conflict or difficulties between the pilots during the approach and landing into Jakarta, on the ground at Jakarta, and during the accident flight. The infrequent non-flight related conversations between the pilots were also cordial. It was concluded that the investigation did not find any evidence of difficulties in the relationship between the two pilots either during or before the accident flight.
2.14 Specific Human Factors Issues
In this section, the specific, personal, financial backgrounds and recent behaviour of the PIC and the F/O are examined.
2.14.2 First Officer (F/O)
The investigation into the F/O's personal and professional history revealed no unusual issues. No records of incidents or unusual events were found, and no career setbacks or difficulties were experienced. Financial records showed no evidence of financial problems. Interviews with family, close friends and relations seem to indicate that the F/O was a well-balanced and well-adjusted person, and keen on his job, and planning to advance his a flying career. There were no reports on recent changes in his behaviour.
In this section, the specific, personal, financial backgrounds and recent behaviour of the PIC and the F/O are examined.
2.14.2 First Officer (F/O)
The investigation into the F/O's personal and professional history revealed no unusual issues. No records of incidents or unusual events were found, and no career setbacks or difficulties were experienced. Financial records showed no evidence of financial problems. Interviews with family, close friends and relations seem to indicate that the F/O was a well-balanced and well-adjusted person, and keen on his job, and planning to advance his a flying career. There were no reports on recent changes in his behaviour.
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Cruise Ship Incidents Identical To Airliners
Hello everyone, I've followed this thread with much interest and have something to add.
Isn't it about time that the mystery cruise ship electrical system failures and separate engine system failures should be considered to have the same root cause as to the many airliner accidents with the same mystery dual system failures??
In the Wake of Ugly Incidents at Sea, the Cruise Industry Is in Hot Water (Mar21 2013)
Five of Carnival Corporation's cruise ships have suffered engine / propulsion problems in the last two months: the Carnival Triumph, Dream, Legend & Elation and the Carnival-owner P&O Ventura. Prior to that there were major problems with Carnival Breeze, Ecstasy, Splendor and who can forget the Carnival-owned Costa Concordia -- 32 dead.
The principal problems have been engine fires when, somehow, nobody says how, all "hotel" power is lost as a result of a propulsion engine fire in a separate compartment far away. Also there have been long-running problems, mainly with thrust bearings, with 'Azipods," which are rotating propeller pods below the ship, like huge outboard motors (which aren't outboard).
Thank you for listening.
Isn't it about time that the mystery cruise ship electrical system failures and separate engine system failures should be considered to have the same root cause as to the many airliner accidents with the same mystery dual system failures??
In the Wake of Ugly Incidents at Sea, the Cruise Industry Is in Hot Water (Mar21 2013)
Five of Carnival Corporation's cruise ships have suffered engine / propulsion problems in the last two months: the Carnival Triumph, Dream, Legend & Elation and the Carnival-owner P&O Ventura. Prior to that there were major problems with Carnival Breeze, Ecstasy, Splendor and who can forget the Carnival-owned Costa Concordia -- 32 dead.
The principal problems have been engine fires when, somehow, nobody says how, all "hotel" power is lost as a result of a propulsion engine fire in a separate compartment far away. Also there have been long-running problems, mainly with thrust bearings, with 'Azipods," which are rotating propeller pods below the ship, like huge outboard motors (which aren't outboard).
Thank you for listening.
Last edited by Alan Lowey; 30th Jun 2013 at 17:06. Reason: typo
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Dear All,
There is so much bull**** and conjecture here it's making me sick. Guess there are not too many aviation types here anymore as even cruise ship accidents come into the picture. What a bloody ship has to do with the demise of Silk's B737 is beyond me.
Now sticking with the facts. if Parker Hannifin lost the case in a US court, you can bet your bottom dollar that they were culpable for something going wrong with the servo valve they manufactured. Because if there wasn't a problem they would have fought tooth and nail to clear their name.
Now regarding the crew. Personally I cannot believe that they didn't fight the beast all the way to the ground. I really hope that one day the truth will surface. I really feel for the family of the Captain and if he is ever vindicated would like to see apologies posted.
Woo blah........!
There is so much bull**** and conjecture here it's making me sick. Guess there are not too many aviation types here anymore as even cruise ship accidents come into the picture. What a bloody ship has to do with the demise of Silk's B737 is beyond me.
Now sticking with the facts. if Parker Hannifin lost the case in a US court, you can bet your bottom dollar that they were culpable for something going wrong with the servo valve they manufactured. Because if there wasn't a problem they would have fought tooth and nail to clear their name.
Now regarding the crew. Personally I cannot believe that they didn't fight the beast all the way to the ground. I really hope that one day the truth will surface. I really feel for the family of the Captain and if he is ever vindicated would like to see apologies posted.
Woo blah........!
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Sorry Captain Wooblah but from the limited evidence available after the accident it was not the result of a valve failure, the flight controls, including stabiliser trim and power levers were set to dive the aircraft at high speed and there was no malfunctioning valve on board that would have enabled this. As mentioned the natural reaction to save oneself would be to close the power levers and pull back/trim back.
The court case after the KLM/Pan Am Tenerife accident named Boeing as a defendant, Boeing had no case to answer but they immediately paid $5Million into the kitty, knowing they were free of all blame, as this was the cheap way out, much cheaper than defending their position in court through expensive attorneys and multiple, expensive, appeals and much more than they could have possibly been found liable for. The outcome of American courts on liability matters don't always properly reflect the facts.
The court case after the KLM/Pan Am Tenerife accident named Boeing as a defendant, Boeing had no case to answer but they immediately paid $5Million into the kitty, knowing they were free of all blame, as this was the cheap way out, much cheaper than defending their position in court through expensive attorneys and multiple, expensive, appeals and much more than they could have possibly been found liable for. The outcome of American courts on liability matters don't always properly reflect the facts.
Last edited by parabellum; 2nd Jul 2013 at 11:25.
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I am with parabellum on this as was in SQ at the time. No ex fighter pilot would apply power and push the nose down to get out of a high speed dive.
No similarity with the Cruise Ship incident which would appear to be case of a navigating error rather than a deliberate act by the Captain as in the case of the Silk Air incident.
Really no point dragging this up again as there is no new evidence.
No similarity with the Cruise Ship incident which would appear to be case of a navigating error rather than a deliberate act by the Captain as in the case of the Silk Air incident.
Really no point dragging this up again as there is no new evidence.
Last edited by millerscourt; 2nd Jul 2013 at 12:02.
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I agree , I have followed this case with much interest. The servo valves did not cause the problem because historically , the cases of rudder hardover on the Boeing 737 have always happened when the aircraft have descended from high altitude, where the temperatures are well below zero, to low altitude where the temperatures are much higher. In addition , the manoeuvres the Silk Air aircraft went through did not match the flight parameters of previous hard over cases. The action of the pilot speaks for itself. What is sad is that the truth will never come out because it was a case of cover up by vested interests and also a case of making big money for a few others.
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Yes guys,
A sad tale indeed. I guess I just want to believe that as pilots we seriously want to protect those in our care. I can't help but think of the guys that have fought all the way to impact to try and save the passengers and themselves. Egypt air was to me a terrible event. I'd like to think Silk was different. I too have read the available evidence and the FAA / NTSB reports are damning. But within all the reports there seems to be a glimmer albeit fractional. Sadly as correctly put, vested monetary interests will prevent the truth coming out. As with the hijacked MAS B732.
Cheers,
Woobs.
A sad tale indeed. I guess I just want to believe that as pilots we seriously want to protect those in our care. I can't help but think of the guys that have fought all the way to impact to try and save the passengers and themselves. Egypt air was to me a terrible event. I'd like to think Silk was different. I too have read the available evidence and the FAA / NTSB reports are damning. But within all the reports there seems to be a glimmer albeit fractional. Sadly as correctly put, vested monetary interests will prevent the truth coming out. As with the hijacked MAS B732.
Cheers,
Woobs.
I guess I just want to believe that as pilots we seriously want to protect those in our care
How often do we see just that on TV news when a nutter blows up people in some sort of religious fervour and the mother cries "but he was a good boy and he would never ever do such a terrible deed so he must have been framed"
If the cap fits, Capt W, then wear it
Last edited by Centaurus; 7th Jul 2013 at 14:32.
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MI 185
In December, it will be 20 years since this incident.
I was part of the team that trained both pilots. I was also a member of the official crash investigation group. There is no doubt in the minds of members of the investigation team that this crash was caused by deliberate control input by the captain (TWM) who was experiencing serious professional and financial issues at the time.
If he had been suspended instead of demoted after a previous circuit breaker incident, this disaster would not have occurred.
The "official" report was written to appease Singapore (Lyin' City Inc). And that is why the NTSB disagreed with another state's official report - a first, I believe.
Let this one rest but, sadly, there were others before and have been since.
I was part of the team that trained both pilots. I was also a member of the official crash investigation group. There is no doubt in the minds of members of the investigation team that this crash was caused by deliberate control input by the captain (TWM) who was experiencing serious professional and financial issues at the time.
If he had been suspended instead of demoted after a previous circuit breaker incident, this disaster would not have occurred.
The "official" report was written to appease Singapore (Lyin' City Inc). And that is why the NTSB disagreed with another state's official report - a first, I believe.
Let this one rest but, sadly, there were others before and have been since.
