The Truth about the SilkAir MI 185 Disaster
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The Truth about SilkAir MI 185
Parabellum, just what is conjecture, manufactured, or very strange about saying that two professional airline pilots got up and went to work that day without either of them planning to kill themselves and 103 others?
My main point however, is that there already was well recorded cover-up of the background that the copilot came from; and that it was therefore very likely that the cover-up would carry over to the investigation of SilkAir MI 185 and most probably explain why it was inconclusive.
My main point however, is that there already was well recorded cover-up of the background that the copilot came from; and that it was therefore very likely that the cover-up would carry over to the investigation of SilkAir MI 185 and most probably explain why it was inconclusive.
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"... that there already was well recorded cover-up of the background that the copilot came from"
As Captain Wooblah says:
I do not think the FO's training school or his initial flight training had anything to do with the accident.
Silkair and it's training syllabus would have professionally assessed his abilities and would not have let him clear to line unless he met the company standard which is as high a standard found anywhere in the world.
Silkair and it's training syllabus would have professionally assessed his abilities and would not have let him clear to line unless he met the company standard which is as high a standard found anywhere in the world.
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The Truth about SilkAir MI 185
Parabellum, when court injunction is taken out against the aviation authority and ombudsman information requests refused, then there is indisputably a covering-up in the copilots' background.
Whether this information is relevant to MI 185 is not for the coverers-up to decide but should be for an open forum to decide - for which we presently only have PPRuNe.
At this stage we are looking at latent weaknesses and human factors which are more likely to show over time to captains in line oerations that in formal airline flight testing.
Interestingly, the current Erebus thread on DG and P Reporting Points has some relevant debate on continuing to discuss as-yet unresolved tragedies.
Whether this information is relevant to MI 185 is not for the coverers-up to decide but should be for an open forum to decide - for which we presently only have PPRuNe.
At this stage we are looking at latent weaknesses and human factors which are more likely to show over time to captains in line oerations that in formal airline flight testing.
Interestingly, the current Erebus thread on DG and P Reporting Points has some relevant debate on continuing to discuss as-yet unresolved tragedies.
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nortwinds
Two years ago CAPTAIN WOOBLAH told you that you were flogging a dead horse yet you are still flogging that same dead horse.
The only relevant background is Tsu's immediate one of demotion, personal and professional disgrace, loss of face and financial ruin.
Two years ago CAPTAIN WOOBLAH told you that you were flogging a dead horse yet you are still flogging that same dead horse.
The only relevant background is Tsu's immediate one of demotion, personal and professional disgrace, loss of face and financial ruin.
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The Truth about SilkAir MI 185
Thank you Millerscourt but the discussion of the SilkAir MI 185 tragedy has developed considerably over the last couple of years and it will continue to progress.
To assist this progress, would you like to comment upon how much what you call the captain's "demotion, personal and professional disgrace, loss of face and financial ruin" was directly caused by a couple of two particular co-pilots.
To assist this progress, would you like to comment upon how much what you call the captain's "demotion, personal and professional disgrace, loss of face and financial ruin" was directly caused by a couple of two particular co-pilots.
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The Truth about SilkAir MI 185
Millerscourt, while awaiting your response, it may be of interest to mention an old novel called Airscream by John Bruce about a fictional NZ air disaster cover-up - co-incidently in the training area of the copilots' flying school.
Just fiction, of course, although no less a PPRuNer than Prospector said the author "certainly did his homework on ... the Aviation scene in NZ at the time'.
The novel, for that was all it was, and the plot is irrelevant, did however explore in detail how tensions could build up between pilots in an aircraft cockpit.
Just fiction, of course, although no less a PPRuNer than Prospector said the author "certainly did his homework on ... the Aviation scene in NZ at the time'.
The novel, for that was all it was, and the plot is irrelevant, did however explore in detail how tensions could build up between pilots in an aircraft cockpit.
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nortwinds
I was not going to reply as it is time to put this thread to bed as you clearly have an agenda all of your own in bringing it up time and time again when nothing further is going to be discovered.
However Tsu's financial ruin was caused by his own greed and stupidity. Losing a line training salary caused by his unusual way of operating was no big deal financially compared to his personal finances.
Yes he had to be reported by co pilots as he was flying dangerously. The days of F/O's sitting there and saying nothing is over.Perhaps flying with this particular F/O was just too much for him on the day and he flipped. We will never know whether he pre planned this or did it on the spur of the moment.
Please not lets have any more rubbish about where the F/O got his basic training.
This is my final word on the subject.
I was not going to reply as it is time to put this thread to bed as you clearly have an agenda all of your own in bringing it up time and time again when nothing further is going to be discovered.
However Tsu's financial ruin was caused by his own greed and stupidity. Losing a line training salary caused by his unusual way of operating was no big deal financially compared to his personal finances.
Yes he had to be reported by co pilots as he was flying dangerously. The days of F/O's sitting there and saying nothing is over.Perhaps flying with this particular F/O was just too much for him on the day and he flipped. We will never know whether he pre planned this or did it on the spur of the moment.
Please not lets have any more rubbish about where the F/O got his basic training.
This is my final word on the subject.
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The Truth about SilkAir MI 185
Millerscourt, my agenda remains simply as justice and as learning from the tragedy of SilkAir MI 185 to minimise the chances of it ever happening again.
There are few further facts to discover - probably the main outstanding fact is what the flying school process was to select which of its trainees were selected for the coveted airline entry positions as copilots with Garuda.
What we are doing now is reconsidering the known facts and we really are moving closer to discovering the truth. Your own contributions towards this are much appreciated and it would be disappointing if you left the debate.
However, you repeat, in your ongoing derogation of the captain, your claim to his "financial ruin". This was investigated by the Singapore Police who commented on the NTSC's draft Final Report that the claim of debt was "incorrect" and that "the pilot's realizable assets were higher than his loans and debts".
The involvement of the same couple of copilots in all the incidents, including the CVR incidents, leading right up to the final tragic flight is crtical; and this is the first forum in which this aspect has even started to be discussed.
Yes of course a copilot has a duty to speak up - but this is a very difficult area and it takes experience to know when and to know how to speak up.
In this particular case, quite apart from the cross-cultural aspect, there was a huge cockpit gradient in terms of knowledge and of experience. The background of the copilots is therefore very relevant in this comparison with the educated, experienced, ex-military captain.
There are few further facts to discover - probably the main outstanding fact is what the flying school process was to select which of its trainees were selected for the coveted airline entry positions as copilots with Garuda.
What we are doing now is reconsidering the known facts and we really are moving closer to discovering the truth. Your own contributions towards this are much appreciated and it would be disappointing if you left the debate.
However, you repeat, in your ongoing derogation of the captain, your claim to his "financial ruin". This was investigated by the Singapore Police who commented on the NTSC's draft Final Report that the claim of debt was "incorrect" and that "the pilot's realizable assets were higher than his loans and debts".
The involvement of the same couple of copilots in all the incidents, including the CVR incidents, leading right up to the final tragic flight is crtical; and this is the first forum in which this aspect has even started to be discussed.
Yes of course a copilot has a duty to speak up - but this is a very difficult area and it takes experience to know when and to know how to speak up.
In this particular case, quite apart from the cross-cultural aspect, there was a huge cockpit gradient in terms of knowledge and of experience. The background of the copilots is therefore very relevant in this comparison with the educated, experienced, ex-military captain.
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The truth about SilkAir MI 185
Thank you Leftseatview.
ICAO held its first Asia and Pacific regional seminar on cross-cultural issues in aviation safety in Bangkok from 12 to 14 August 1998 - less than a year after the SilkAir MI 185 tragedy.
The proceedings of the seminar record no mention of MI 185 even though the attendance list included some of the managers of the co-pilot's flying school.
Nevertheless, Ansett Australia presented a relevant paper "A tale of two cultures - Part 2" which clearly identified the very different cultural factors which would have underlain the captain and the copilot of MI 185.
The example Ansett used was of a Western captain, and an Eastern copilot - especially if ex-military. With MI 185, the situation was even more extreme with an ex-military captain and a New Zealand Western copilot.
It is surprising that the area of cross culture, with the same pilots being involved in all the ongoing incidents which culminated in the SilkAir MI 185 tragedy, has not yet been explored.
ICAO held its first Asia and Pacific regional seminar on cross-cultural issues in aviation safety in Bangkok from 12 to 14 August 1998 - less than a year after the SilkAir MI 185 tragedy.
The proceedings of the seminar record no mention of MI 185 even though the attendance list included some of the managers of the co-pilot's flying school.
Nevertheless, Ansett Australia presented a relevant paper "A tale of two cultures - Part 2" which clearly identified the very different cultural factors which would have underlain the captain and the copilot of MI 185.
The example Ansett used was of a Western captain, and an Eastern copilot - especially if ex-military. With MI 185, the situation was even more extreme with an ex-military captain and a New Zealand Western copilot.
It is surprising that the area of cross culture, with the same pilots being involved in all the ongoing incidents which culminated in the SilkAir MI 185 tragedy, has not yet been explored.
I understand that Silk Air, today, have a number of western expat F/Os who are under the command of local Captains. If the company thought that this is an issue, then they would have already stopped this practice long ago. But they haven't.
The reason why it hasn't been explored yet is because it is a non-issue.
It is surprising that the area of cross culture, with the same pilots being involved in all the ongoing incidents which culminated in the SilkAir MI 185 tragedy, has not yet been explored.
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Oh didn't you read that part of the ATPL human factors textbook WSSS, it is actually a well documented risk that normal, socially well adjusted western FO's, may have a sudden uncontrollable desire to deliberately pull the CVR and FDR circuit breakers, apply full forward trim and spear the plane into the ground, because they were flying with a difficult local captain 
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I understand that Silk Air, today, have a number of western expat F/Os who are under the command of local Captains.
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"As a passenger, I feel much more confident knowing that the local captain is under the watchfull eye of a qualified western F/O."
Hahahahahahaha..........
This must be the funniest, so far.
Hahahahahahaha..........
This must be the funniest, so far.
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PappyJ: what is it your are insinuating ?? 
Would a local captain, trained and qualified in the west count as a one of those who need a Western F/O ????
You just lightened up my day ....
Would a local captain, trained and qualified in the west count as a one of those who need a Western F/O ????
You just lightened up my day ....
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Would a local captain, trained and qualified in the west count as a one of those who need a Western F/O ????
Are you insinuating that there's a difference?
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PappyJ
before I run for cover, and let the thread back to it's original intent ..
Would a Western Pilot Trained in Asia make a difference, in your opinion ?
Cheers, I dont expect you to answer that anyway ...
before I run for cover, and let the thread back to it's original intent ..
Would a Western Pilot Trained in Asia make a difference, in your opinion ?
Cheers, I dont expect you to answer that anyway ...
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pappy j... do run for cover as advised.... however the view you share is typical of an uninformed, ignorant non aviator... one does wonder why asian power houses like SIA have fairly decent load factors while not flying in hills with local captains as well as non western expat captain??? if they needed a western watch dog.. the will never be a need for western co-pilots in non western carriers!!! please pappy j,lets keep this as an intelligent disussion about a sad incident
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looks to me that pappyj was just making a little joke. obviously he doesn't know that Singaporeans don't have a sense of humor and aint capable of thinking outside the boundarys.
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Adrian:
Another stereotyping of Singaporeans ..
If it was implied that I don't have a sense of humor, I am not a Singaporean, and, I do have a sense of humor ... And I do know more than enough Singaporeans who have a great sense of humor, but then again, don't laugh at some certain Western jokes, which only said Western Country people understand .. and probably the whole of Asia will also have problem seeing the humorous side of such jokes .. like an English comedian who was making jokes about Merseyside, and apart from the Brits in the crowd, not many even know what he was talkign about .. [Damn - that is too much of a thread drift .. ]
I still am perplexed with PappyJ's suggestion that Western Co-Pilots are much better .. that Asian Pilots ..
Anyway, let's get back to the subject matter at hand .. and not let this thread deviate into another assault on Singapore.
Apologies for the drift ..
Another stereotyping of Singaporeans ..
If it was implied that I don't have a sense of humor, I am not a Singaporean, and, I do have a sense of humor ... And I do know more than enough Singaporeans who have a great sense of humor, but then again, don't laugh at some certain Western jokes, which only said Western Country people understand .. and probably the whole of Asia will also have problem seeing the humorous side of such jokes .. like an English comedian who was making jokes about Merseyside, and apart from the Brits in the crowd, not many even know what he was talkign about .. [Damn - that is too much of a thread drift .. ]
I still am perplexed with PappyJ's suggestion that Western Co-Pilots are much better .. that Asian Pilots ..
Anyway, let's get back to the subject matter at hand .. and not let this thread deviate into another assault on Singapore.
Apologies for the drift ..