Pan Am Beijing
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Pan Am Beijing
What is the deal with this school? I'm considering applying in about a month, but have heard a lot of mixed things. Anyone here currently working there or worked there in the past? How is it? How is the situation with the military severely restricting flight hours?
I understand P. Murphy just left the school and, as far as I can tell, he was pretty much running the place. Any idea how I can contact his replacement?
Thanks
I understand P. Murphy just left the school and, as far as I can tell, he was pretty much running the place. Any idea how I can contact his replacement?
Thanks
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To be more accurate, hardly anyone there works there either. I work for BPA. We do a lot of sitting and waiting for clearances but as far as work...a few of us (that were suckers) teach ground schools but more than 2 airplanes in the traffic patteren at once is cause for celebration around here. We have something like 50 on the ramp in Shijiazhuang alone.
Of the 45 or so instructors at the SJW base maybe 15 fly regularly (10 hours in a good week, usually less). There are another 10 or so of us that have passed our knowledge tests and wait for our Chinese check rides. The rest were not fortunate enough to win the lottery that is the Chinese written tests and so they do odd jobs, tutoring, or nothing as they wait the 28 days the Chinese require before a retest can be taken. Some have been playing that game as long as 6 months and it is seldom any fault on their part.
The main reason for that is the written tests which are rediculous. If you know the FAA material cold, and I do mean cold, then your chances of passing these are about 50/50 because the questions are written in horrible english and in many cases the questions or answers are simply wrong or mismatched. I was at an advantage because I spent the last 4 years teaching a lot of Austrians and Polish students so I'm pretty accustomed to questions that make no sense if you take them literally because of the language barriers. Still, my passing was as much luck as it was knowledge.
It depends on what you're looking for but if you need flight hours this isn't the place to be (they'll tell you 500-1000 a year, in reality about 300 if you're lucky enough to get through all the silly tests). On the bright side, it's easy money and your living expenses are nil so it's a great way to pay down training debts or save some quick cash.
The instructor corps here is a great group of guys (kind of have to be to skip halfway around the world to work as a CFI) so that helps you maintain your sanity a bit. If you want to travel to China on someone else's dime then it's ok.
There are a lot of things that keep us on the ground but ATC, and not always the military, is far and away the biggest culprit.
There are a lot of good people trying very hard here but stacked against Chinese corruption, poor maintanence, bad weather (caused primarially by the pollution here) and mind-boggling incompetance of the vast majority of our massive Chinese staff the obstacles are just too big.
This forum will probably turn into a lightening rod for a lot of nameless posters soon. There was another thread on PPRUNE about a year ago that turned into that. There are a lot of very frustrated people here and they have a right to be. Most are looking for other work. I'd say it's not so bad as long as you come for the right reasons (travel as opposed to flying hours).
I just call it like I see it.
Tailwinds,
Derek
Of the 45 or so instructors at the SJW base maybe 15 fly regularly (10 hours in a good week, usually less). There are another 10 or so of us that have passed our knowledge tests and wait for our Chinese check rides. The rest were not fortunate enough to win the lottery that is the Chinese written tests and so they do odd jobs, tutoring, or nothing as they wait the 28 days the Chinese require before a retest can be taken. Some have been playing that game as long as 6 months and it is seldom any fault on their part.
The main reason for that is the written tests which are rediculous. If you know the FAA material cold, and I do mean cold, then your chances of passing these are about 50/50 because the questions are written in horrible english and in many cases the questions or answers are simply wrong or mismatched. I was at an advantage because I spent the last 4 years teaching a lot of Austrians and Polish students so I'm pretty accustomed to questions that make no sense if you take them literally because of the language barriers. Still, my passing was as much luck as it was knowledge.
It depends on what you're looking for but if you need flight hours this isn't the place to be (they'll tell you 500-1000 a year, in reality about 300 if you're lucky enough to get through all the silly tests). On the bright side, it's easy money and your living expenses are nil so it's a great way to pay down training debts or save some quick cash.
The instructor corps here is a great group of guys (kind of have to be to skip halfway around the world to work as a CFI) so that helps you maintain your sanity a bit. If you want to travel to China on someone else's dime then it's ok.
There are a lot of things that keep us on the ground but ATC, and not always the military, is far and away the biggest culprit.
There are a lot of good people trying very hard here but stacked against Chinese corruption, poor maintanence, bad weather (caused primarially by the pollution here) and mind-boggling incompetance of the vast majority of our massive Chinese staff the obstacles are just too big.
This forum will probably turn into a lightening rod for a lot of nameless posters soon. There was another thread on PPRUNE about a year ago that turned into that. There are a lot of very frustrated people here and they have a right to be. Most are looking for other work. I'd say it's not so bad as long as you come for the right reasons (travel as opposed to flying hours).
I just call it like I see it.
Tailwinds,
Derek
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Pay is based on experiece and liscences. I don't remember the exact scheme but it works out to something like $1,700 USD per month for a guy who still has the ink wet on their certificate. I can tell you for sure that someone with multi-instructor and instrument instructor certificates and 100 hours of dual given gets $2000 a month. It's allstandard package stuff so they don't leave room to negotiate.
They will withold $100 per month for the first ten months but you do get that back (they reimburse your trip expenses on arrival so the witholding protects them from eating that if you skip out before doing any work). Still, if you really don't like it you could jump ship when you recieve your first payday and go home breaking even with a month in China under your belt.
They have a lot a scary language in the contract about having to give 3 months notice or they fine you some rediculous amount for contract breach. The Chinese still haven't figured out that if they removed that crap then people who do quit would give notice instead of just dissappearing on payday. If you have to leave early then that's how you do it (all of us knows who's going when so we don't leave each other hanging or the students in a bind but as far as the Chinese are concerned it's always a total surprise
)
No taxes to pay here and you probably won't pay any back home either (at leat for Americans it's 330 days abroad in a year and you have no tax liability for money made outside the US).
Pay is totally divorced from how much you fly or what those hours are in but the odds of getting in anything other than a DA40 for the first contract seem slim. Then on the other hand there is a huge controversy here at the moment over a bunch of really low time people that got typed in a CJ1 but I'm not gonna touch that, no my business or my problem.
I'm doing my level best to keep a positive outlook here but again I'd admonish you to come here for travel or experience only. Flying is not what Pan Am does and the Chinese have zero interest in quality instruction in the air or on the ground (or in anything else for that matter).
It's almost like a whole 'nother country.
Derek
They will withold $100 per month for the first ten months but you do get that back (they reimburse your trip expenses on arrival so the witholding protects them from eating that if you skip out before doing any work). Still, if you really don't like it you could jump ship when you recieve your first payday and go home breaking even with a month in China under your belt.
They have a lot a scary language in the contract about having to give 3 months notice or they fine you some rediculous amount for contract breach. The Chinese still haven't figured out that if they removed that crap then people who do quit would give notice instead of just dissappearing on payday. If you have to leave early then that's how you do it (all of us knows who's going when so we don't leave each other hanging or the students in a bind but as far as the Chinese are concerned it's always a total surprise
)No taxes to pay here and you probably won't pay any back home either (at leat for Americans it's 330 days abroad in a year and you have no tax liability for money made outside the US).
Pay is totally divorced from how much you fly or what those hours are in but the odds of getting in anything other than a DA40 for the first contract seem slim. Then on the other hand there is a huge controversy here at the moment over a bunch of really low time people that got typed in a CJ1 but I'm not gonna touch that, no my business or my problem.
I'm doing my level best to keep a positive outlook here but again I'd admonish you to come here for travel or experience only. Flying is not what Pan Am does and the Chinese have zero interest in quality instruction in the air or on the ground (or in anything else for that matter).
It's almost like a whole 'nother country.
Derek
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Whats is Like working in Beijing?
I’m posting to see if there is anyone in Beijing with anything positive to say about Pan Am’s operations. I am a UK based instructor and I have submitted my application to Pan Am as I am interested in working there. Most of the posts on this site are about all the negative things at Pan Am which I am grateful for but surely there must be some positive things as well.
A major issue that concerns me is the pollution in Beijing. Just how bad is it at the Pan Am schools? I live in London so am used to City living but does it compare or is it much worse. Have any students complained of any related health problems due to working in Beijing. I think China is one of the most exciting places to be for the future developments within the aviation industry and see this opportunity as a chance to get into that market.
I would like to hear from instructors who are currently in Beijing, please include both the positive and negative parts of your experience.
Thanks
Smoothk
A major issue that concerns me is the pollution in Beijing. Just how bad is it at the Pan Am schools? I live in London so am used to City living but does it compare or is it much worse. Have any students complained of any related health problems due to working in Beijing. I think China is one of the most exciting places to be for the future developments within the aviation industry and see this opportunity as a chance to get into that market.
I would like to hear from instructors who are currently in Beijing, please include both the positive and negative parts of your experience.
Thanks
Smoothk
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Check out these two threads from the Flight Instructors forum;
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=245061
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246851
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=245061
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246851
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Pollution
i doubt many of us have ever experienced air pollution worse than that at Shijiazhuang, the original base for Beijing PanAm. The newer base in Baotou has better air quality, but even there if the atmospheric conditions are right (wrong?) the pollution can be quite bad.
With that said, there did not seem to be many illnesses at Shijiazhuang that could be directly attributed to the air pollution. But certainly it can not be very good for the young, old, or those with existing conditions or allergies.
And to respond to an initial comment, it is correct that I am no longer with the company. Howard Davenport is still there ([email protected]) and the instructor recruiter is Jessica Tian ([email protected]). Their website is available at www.panamaviation.com (there is an English version), but it is somewhat dated as it still carries me as being part of the company.
P. Murphy
With that said, there did not seem to be many illnesses at Shijiazhuang that could be directly attributed to the air pollution. But certainly it can not be very good for the young, old, or those with existing conditions or allergies.
And to respond to an initial comment, it is correct that I am no longer with the company. Howard Davenport is still there ([email protected]) and the instructor recruiter is Jessica Tian ([email protected]). Their website is available at www.panamaviation.com (there is an English version), but it is somewhat dated as it still carries me as being part of the company.
P. Murphy
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Pollution
The pollution in Beijing isn't much worse then what you see in London but you'll only see Beijing on your own time. The company has offices in Beijing but there are no flight operations there of any sort. You'll spend your first 4 or 5 moths in Shijiazhuang and the pollution here is unreal. Some of the worst in China and China has the worst in the world. You'll develop the habit of hacking and spitting here on a regular basis (this is normal and you'll see everyone doing it, even old women--on the train, busses, even occasionally in hotel lobbies).
With a lot of luck you pass the tests on the first try and then you only have to wait 4 or 5 months for "standardization." When, or rather if, that ever happens you have a chance of being shipped somewhere else, most likely Batou. As Pat said the Batou base is supposedly better but I've only been there once so I can't speak much to it. There is one other base, Handan, which is opening next month (it actually looks like it might open in April but to put things in perspective, it has been "openning next month" since I got here in November and a lot of the others guys say it's been "next month" for a year and a half so take that for what it's worth).
The website is far, far out of date and the way communication works here I'd be leery of something else. They are drawing up a new contracts but it is doubtful they will send you the new one. Before I came they sent me the contract ahead of time for review but you will want to make sure they send you the new one, which is doubtlessly less in your favor. When you get here they won't reimburse your trip expenses until after you sign it so you'll want to minimize surprises.
As for the other benifits they will sell you on, namely "banking" days and bonuses, none of that exists anymore and they will change or take away anything they please with a few keystokes of an email. There is absolutely no protection for you anywhere in China. You're a foriegner, you don't speak Chinese and even if you did you would still lack the money and connections to seek any kind of legal protection. Anything that that happens here will be judged as your fault, automatically.
As far as China being the new aviation boom, don't hold your breath. They have to change a lot first and the one thing the Chinese loath above all else is change. Everything here is appearance and as long as it looks like modernization their goal has been met. Progress is a bit more elusive.
Positives: Good group of people to hang around with, learning a new culture, some travel oppertunities in the region, free living and easy money if you keep your head down.
As for the negatives, you'll have no difficulties finding those on those other threads.
Good luck,
Derek
With a lot of luck you pass the tests on the first try and then you only have to wait 4 or 5 months for "standardization." When, or rather if, that ever happens you have a chance of being shipped somewhere else, most likely Batou. As Pat said the Batou base is supposedly better but I've only been there once so I can't speak much to it. There is one other base, Handan, which is opening next month (it actually looks like it might open in April but to put things in perspective, it has been "openning next month" since I got here in November and a lot of the others guys say it's been "next month" for a year and a half so take that for what it's worth).
The website is far, far out of date and the way communication works here I'd be leery of something else. They are drawing up a new contracts but it is doubtful they will send you the new one. Before I came they sent me the contract ahead of time for review but you will want to make sure they send you the new one, which is doubtlessly less in your favor. When you get here they won't reimburse your trip expenses until after you sign it so you'll want to minimize surprises.
As for the other benifits they will sell you on, namely "banking" days and bonuses, none of that exists anymore and they will change or take away anything they please with a few keystokes of an email. There is absolutely no protection for you anywhere in China. You're a foriegner, you don't speak Chinese and even if you did you would still lack the money and connections to seek any kind of legal protection. Anything that that happens here will be judged as your fault, automatically.
As far as China being the new aviation boom, don't hold your breath. They have to change a lot first and the one thing the Chinese loath above all else is change. Everything here is appearance and as long as it looks like modernization their goal has been met. Progress is a bit more elusive.
Positives: Good group of people to hang around with, learning a new culture, some travel oppertunities in the region, free living and easy money if you keep your head down.
As for the negatives, you'll have no difficulties finding those on those other threads.
Good luck,
Derek
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You'll spend your first 4 or 5 moths in Shijiazhuang and the pollution here is unreal. Some of the worst in China and China has the worst in the world. You'll develop the habit of hacking and spitting here on a regular basis (this is normal and you'll see everyone doing it, even old women--on the train, busses, even occasionally in hotel lobbies).
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that's true, they certainly have a little different perspective on manners, which is fun to learn about. Getting right in your face when they talk is another charmer. On the other hand, a girl I know in Beijing said that her province had nearly 2000 a day dying to SARS (funny, you didn't see that in China Daily) and you wonder what effect hygene has (far and away the most common form of disease transfer is 'fecal to mouth'--my Bachelor's is actually in Phisical Anthropology). Most places don't have hot water so weeks without bathing in the winter is not uncommon. Few wash their hands (at all it seems). The kids here don't wear diapers, they have pants with a split in the crotch and they just squat anywhere at anytime. Just about every bathroom in the country has a trash can full of used toilet paper in every stall too.
Ahh...the Pearl of the Orient.
Watch your step,
Derek
Ahh...the Pearl of the Orient.
Watch your step,
Derek
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China job
Hello,
I agree 100 % with Derek. It is a very good report of life at Shijiazhuang airport and in China. I also am employed with BPIAA and have been struggling to get standardized. Many flights are cancelled for ATC delays, trafic delays, maintenance, CFI sickness, myself sick, other flights have priority, ferry flights.... etc. 10 times on the schedule and maybe 1 actual flight. And I passed the written tests relatively fast compared to other guys.Decision are made without our knowledge, on the last minute like last week: a guy comes and tell us to take the CAAC checkride and we are not finished with Flight Standard Dept.
The only good is you get paid, but actually you pay for it: your moral is very low, you can' t plan a trip ahead of time, no future vacation because the instability, irritation, you hear complains from everybody.... It is really chaos here, but normal for China; I TALKED TO A CHARMING CHINESE LADY and she said that in her company they have the same problems: therefore BPIAA is nothing really exceptional for bad management, maybe a little bit more complex due to western and chinese managers fighting to control the place.
Anyway,
Take care Derek,
Flytoo! not too much but....it is China
I agree 100 % with Derek. It is a very good report of life at Shijiazhuang airport and in China. I also am employed with BPIAA and have been struggling to get standardized. Many flights are cancelled for ATC delays, trafic delays, maintenance, CFI sickness, myself sick, other flights have priority, ferry flights.... etc. 10 times on the schedule and maybe 1 actual flight. And I passed the written tests relatively fast compared to other guys.Decision are made without our knowledge, on the last minute like last week: a guy comes and tell us to take the CAAC checkride and we are not finished with Flight Standard Dept.
The only good is you get paid, but actually you pay for it: your moral is very low, you can' t plan a trip ahead of time, no future vacation because the instability, irritation, you hear complains from everybody.... It is really chaos here, but normal for China; I TALKED TO A CHARMING CHINESE LADY and she said that in her company they have the same problems: therefore BPIAA is nothing really exceptional for bad management, maybe a little bit more complex due to western and chinese managers fighting to control the place.
Anyway,
Take care Derek,
Flytoo! not too much but....it is China
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Why not try malaysia?
HM AEROSPACE TRAINING CENTER is looking for flight instructores. They pay 2000 us dollars + housing and you will live in an island. Beutiful place, I have never been there, but it looked beutiful from the internet
.
They require FAA/JAA/ or any ICOA recognized license. You need to have a flight instructor rating + 1500 tt and 500 dual given.
But I bet you if you apply with lower time you will get the job.
There is a flight instructor shortage these days so they might take you.
HM AEROSPACE TRAINING CENTER is looking for flight instructores. They pay 2000 us dollars + housing and you will live in an island. Beutiful place, I have never been there, but it looked beutiful from the internet
. They require FAA/JAA/ or any ICOA recognized license. You need to have a flight instructor rating + 1500 tt and 500 dual given.
But I bet you if you apply with lower time you will get the job.
There is a flight instructor shortage these days so they might take you.
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malaysia!
Hi!
I am thinking about it too! If you go there, give us some live info about it. Of course, on a island with the sea and beach, it will be a major improvement from the pollution from China.
Take care,
Flytoo
I am thinking about it too! If you go there, give us some live info about it. Of course, on a island with the sea and beach, it will be a major improvement from the pollution from China.
Take care,
Flytoo
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news from BPIAA
Hello,
News from BPIAA: starting monday, we have to sign up everyday a presence sheet at 8:00 AM to find out what is our location. If you are not showing up, you will get a paycut. You also have some work to do: if you are not competent for the job, it doesn't matter :just do it, if you don't like it, go back to your country. A new CFI arriving here will be asked to review the checklist on an aircraft that he never flew before and set the SOP for the company. Amazing! I thought you do what and how to fly but not in this case, you will set the new standards. How can a company run like this?
Just bragg how good you are a pilot with thousands of hours and you get a manager job! Fantastic!
It is getting better and better and the rats are leaving the sinking boat!
I love it here!
Flytoo
News from BPIAA: starting monday, we have to sign up everyday a presence sheet at 8:00 AM to find out what is our location. If you are not showing up, you will get a paycut. You also have some work to do: if you are not competent for the job, it doesn't matter :just do it, if you don't like it, go back to your country. A new CFI arriving here will be asked to review the checklist on an aircraft that he never flew before and set the SOP for the company. Amazing! I thought you do what and how to fly but not in this case, you will set the new standards. How can a company run like this?
Just bragg how good you are a pilot with thousands of hours and you get a manager job! Fantastic!
It is getting better and better and the rats are leaving the sinking boat!
I love it here!
Flytoo
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Madman striking!
Hello,
News from BPIAA.
Email from the new management officer: position unknown
"Notice to Airmen and Airwomen
I see you when you're sleeping
I KNOW when you're awake
I KNOW if you 've been bad or good
So sign up for your salary's sake"
This email was send to CFI's because we don't agree with the presence sheet. This seems to be some intimidation manoeuver, with some hitlerian tactics to get the CFI's to behave as he wishes.
What will come next?
Mr Toni Soloman is simply a maniac who tries to run an international group of flight instructors. Can you believe it?
If you want to get a job here, believe me, soon there will be many openings!
Good flights,
Flytoo
News from BPIAA.
Email from the new management officer: position unknown
"Notice to Airmen and Airwomen
I see you when you're sleeping
I KNOW when you're awake
I KNOW if you 've been bad or good
So sign up for your salary's sake"
This email was send to CFI's because we don't agree with the presence sheet. This seems to be some intimidation manoeuver, with some hitlerian tactics to get the CFI's to behave as he wishes.
What will come next?
Mr Toni Soloman is simply a maniac who tries to run an international group of flight instructors. Can you believe it?
If you want to get a job here, believe me, soon there will be many openings!
Good flights,
Flytoo
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Were the SOPs written by Bert Hummingsworth or Martain Field?
You walked past one on the ramp, appearently if you didn't trip and fall down that's a checkride pass
Make sure you include that 7000th Mags on both check in flight and the canopy latch for the ninth time. I never knew how much work a single-engine, fixed gear DA40 could be. The Diamond test pilots that checked us out at the dealership sure made it look easier... eh, what would they know?
I actually had this conversation with a student on Tuesday:
"Sir, in SOP should I look left, right, center then turn or right, left then center then turn? No...is right, center THEN left, I think."
"How about you just look around for traffic?"
"Yes...but what is the procedure?"
"I use the windows."
Make it easy on yourself,
Derek
Make sure you include that 7000th Mags on both check in flight and the canopy latch for the ninth time. I never knew how much work a single-engine, fixed gear DA40 could be. The Diamond test pilots that checked us out at the dealership sure made it look easier... eh, what would they know?
I actually had this conversation with a student on Tuesday:
"Sir, in SOP should I look left, right, center then turn or right, left then center then turn? No...is right, center THEN left, I think."
"How about you just look around for traffic?"
"Yes...but what is the procedure?"
"I use the windows."
Make it easy on yourself,
Derek
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Come to think of it...I'm a moron.
About 3 seconds after hitting "submit" the thought occures to me that the 42 doesn't have Mags...
Eternity, better have them check someone else's just to be safe.
Otherwise we will have to install some.
Clear left (center and right),
Derek
Eternity, better have them check someone else's just to be safe.
Otherwise we will have to install some.
Clear left (center and right),
Derek
PanAm loves you