Air Japan/ANA & expat pilots (Merged).
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: German Corner
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air Japan/ANA & expat pilots (Merged).
I see some posts that would seem to suggest that ANA and in particular Air Japan have their issues when it comes to dealing with non-Japanese pilots on contracts.
One point would be Japanese Captains not giving any handling sectors to foreign co-pilots for some strange reason.. do they do this for official reasons or do they consider the GAIJIN to be useless? Others might be decissions taken away from the Captain by groundcrew/handlers etc.
Obviously there are a host of cultural issues involved with problems on each side but is this isolated or do other airlines in Japan have the same problems.
Shags
One point would be Japanese Captains not giving any handling sectors to foreign co-pilots for some strange reason.. do they do this for official reasons or do they consider the GAIJIN to be useless? Others might be decissions taken away from the Captain by groundcrew/handlers etc.
Obviously there are a host of cultural issues involved with problems on each side but is this isolated or do other airlines in Japan have the same problems.
Shags
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Re: Air Japan/ANA & expat pilots
No other airlines in Japan employ F/O's who fly only with Japanese Captains. The JALways F/O's fly with predominantly gaijin skippers, and the other airlines - such as Sky Net Asia, Sky Mark, And Air Do, fly Captain with Captain (Japanese Cap:Foreign Cap as F/O, or Foreign Cap:Japanese Cap as F/O), or Captain (Japanese or Foreign) with local F/O.
We had done the same thing in JAL Express for a couple of years (when the were "getting used" to us), and presently the Japanese Captains on the MD are flying Captain with Captain, because ALL of the F/O's were upgraded and their replacements are still in the sausage factory.
I doubt that the Air Japan foreign F/O's are getting NO handling, unless they are flying outbound with one Captain, and return with a different one.
As someone who has been here for just coming up to 7 years, I would have to say that I did notice it took some time for us to be (partly) accepted. Undoubtedly, the cultural and language barriers were (and occasionally still are) played a not inconsiderable part in this.
However, Japan has been the sole territory of the Japanese pilot, and seeing us (gaijin) here, taking up some of that territory, and doing more work on lesser conditions, has not given them any reason to embrace us.
Upon reflection, I would say that to a certain extent, we were used as a "tool" by the companies to try to alter the incumbent pilots' conditions. And THAT is the reason for the offshoots of the mainlines, which is possibly the reason the mainline pilots who are seconded to the "Air Japans", have little time for the contract foreign pilots, and the new recruit Japanese.
They see THEM as a threat to THEIR conditions.
We had done the same thing in JAL Express for a couple of years (when the were "getting used" to us), and presently the Japanese Captains on the MD are flying Captain with Captain, because ALL of the F/O's were upgraded and their replacements are still in the sausage factory.
I doubt that the Air Japan foreign F/O's are getting NO handling, unless they are flying outbound with one Captain, and return with a different one.
As someone who has been here for just coming up to 7 years, I would have to say that I did notice it took some time for us to be (partly) accepted. Undoubtedly, the cultural and language barriers were (and occasionally still are) played a not inconsiderable part in this.
However, Japan has been the sole territory of the Japanese pilot, and seeing us (gaijin) here, taking up some of that territory, and doing more work on lesser conditions, has not given them any reason to embrace us.
Upon reflection, I would say that to a certain extent, we were used as a "tool" by the companies to try to alter the incumbent pilots' conditions. And THAT is the reason for the offshoots of the mainlines, which is possibly the reason the mainline pilots who are seconded to the "Air Japans", have little time for the contract foreign pilots, and the new recruit Japanese.
They see THEM as a threat to THEIR conditions.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: German Corner
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Air Japan/ANA & expat pilots
So back to my original post - would like to hear from pilots flying in Japan and their thoughts on the topic.
Shags
Shags
Last edited by BlueEagle; 16th Jan 2006 at 21:44.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Antipodes & ....
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Air Japan/ANA & expat pilots
Shag,
I think Kap M has provided some very reasonable and considered comments.
I found them useful and in keeping with what I have already read on PPrune forums and from talking to Japanese friends who work as pilots within the ANA System. They (local Japaneses Pilots) ARE worried about the possibility that their conditions of employment may be eroded by the employment of foreign pilots on lesser conditions - Who would not be?
It does make it a complex issue.
Fark.
I think Kap M has provided some very reasonable and considered comments.
I found them useful and in keeping with what I have already read on PPrune forums and from talking to Japanese friends who work as pilots within the ANA System. They (local Japaneses Pilots) ARE worried about the possibility that their conditions of employment may be eroded by the employment of foreign pilots on lesser conditions - Who would not be?
It does make it a complex issue.
Fark.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Re: Air Japan/ANA & expat pilots
The short answer to your question, glekichi, is "No".
The airlines (to date) have not direct hired any non-Japanese passport holders to the best of my knowledge.
There are quite a lot of contract pilots who have been with JALWays for donkey's years, but none of those live in Japan.
One of the regular PPRuNers has been doing some serious work to try to achieve direct entry, and certainly has the determination and ability to be successful.
The way things are headed, with the pilot shortage soon to impact severely here (and elsewhere) over the next few years, it just may happen that the Japanese airlines might decide to direct hire. However, things happen very, very slowly in this country, and I really do NOT believe that either side would find it easy dealing directly with the other.
We westerners are used to a straight on, face to face dealing with our superiors, which is precisely 180 degrees removed from the way the Japanese do things.
If not done their way, misunderstandings are more likely to occur, resulting in an "awkward" situation for both parties.
I feel that IF the Japanese were to direct hire, it would not be into any of the current airlines, but more likely (would be) a separate entity structured more to having mainly non-Japanese pilots making up the bulk of the pilot workforce. I feel the Japanese would be more comfortable with that sort of a set-up, and is my OPINION only.
SkyNet Asia comes to mind, as an example.
The airlines (to date) have not direct hired any non-Japanese passport holders to the best of my knowledge.
There are quite a lot of contract pilots who have been with JALWays for donkey's years, but none of those live in Japan.
One of the regular PPRuNers has been doing some serious work to try to achieve direct entry, and certainly has the determination and ability to be successful.
The way things are headed, with the pilot shortage soon to impact severely here (and elsewhere) over the next few years, it just may happen that the Japanese airlines might decide to direct hire. However, things happen very, very slowly in this country, and I really do NOT believe that either side would find it easy dealing directly with the other.
We westerners are used to a straight on, face to face dealing with our superiors, which is precisely 180 degrees removed from the way the Japanese do things.
If not done their way, misunderstandings are more likely to occur, resulting in an "awkward" situation for both parties.
I feel that IF the Japanese were to direct hire, it would not be into any of the current airlines, but more likely (would be) a separate entity structured more to having mainly non-Japanese pilots making up the bulk of the pilot workforce. I feel the Japanese would be more comfortable with that sort of a set-up, and is my OPINION only.
SkyNet Asia comes to mind, as an example.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Air Japan/ANA & expat pilots
Don't worry too much about the gaijin pilots not being as skilled as their Jap colleagues. I've never seen a Jap pilot with anything but the most basic of skills, and even those not too polished. They hate disengaging the auto pilot, and they'd use it for take off if they could.
Kaptin M, you said
"and seeing us (gaijin) here, taking up some of that territory, and doing more work on lesser conditions, has not given them any reason to embrace us."
Are you telling me that you are working in Japan for less than local pilots?? Your conditions are less??
Isn't that what you've poured $hit on others on these forums for years?
Farknel, I'm sure the local pilots are worried that their conditions will be eroded by these blow ins, who are the equivalent of strike breakers (without the strike of course).
Kaptin M, you said
"and seeing us (gaijin) here, taking up some of that territory, and doing more work on lesser conditions, has not given them any reason to embrace us."
Are you telling me that you are working in Japan for less than local pilots?? Your conditions are less??
Isn't that what you've poured $hit on others on these forums for years?
Farknel, I'm sure the local pilots are worried that their conditions will be eroded by these blow ins, who are the equivalent of strike breakers (without the strike of course).
Last edited by BlueEagle; 16th Jan 2006 at 09:23.
Re: Air Japan/ANA & expat pilots
I know what you are getting at Kaptin.. makes sense.
Such a large number of people trouble have adjusting to life in Japan.
It is one area I think Japan does have right... If you want to live there youve gotta do things their way. Good on em. When in Rome, I say!!
Not going to help them if they simply need to find pilots fast though.
Dont know why but I found it really easy. Lived there 6 years and although the first few years were a struggle, I found that after mastering the language (It got to the point where nobody would pick that I wasnt Japanese over the phone. Took 5 minutes to convince the police on a 110 call that the name I was saying was my name, not the company name. ) and communicating on their level, they werent negative towards me whatsoever, in any situation. I GUESS the same would work in aviation.
Separate airline? Great... NOVA in the sky - socialize only with other westerners (besides their boy/girlfriend), never see the real Japan, and generally make all westerners look like complete morons..
At least throwing them in the deep end with the Japanese at the main airlines gives people a chance at some day learning a bit about the culture.
Back to the original topic.. Could always take that JCAB license (If I ever get one) somewhere smaller... would be interesting to know what GA pays like in Japan..
Such a large number of people trouble have adjusting to life in Japan.
It is one area I think Japan does have right... If you want to live there youve gotta do things their way. Good on em. When in Rome, I say!!
Not going to help them if they simply need to find pilots fast though.
Dont know why but I found it really easy. Lived there 6 years and although the first few years were a struggle, I found that after mastering the language (It got to the point where nobody would pick that I wasnt Japanese over the phone. Took 5 minutes to convince the police on a 110 call that the name I was saying was my name, not the company name. ) and communicating on their level, they werent negative towards me whatsoever, in any situation. I GUESS the same would work in aviation.
Separate airline? Great... NOVA in the sky - socialize only with other westerners (besides their boy/girlfriend), never see the real Japan, and generally make all westerners look like complete morons..
At least throwing them in the deep end with the Japanese at the main airlines gives people a chance at some day learning a bit about the culture.
Back to the original topic.. Could always take that JCAB license (If I ever get one) somewhere smaller... would be interesting to know what GA pays like in Japan..
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Re: Air Japan/ANA & expat pilots
I've never seen a Jap pilot with anything but the most basic of skills, and even those not too polished. They hate disengaging the auto pilot, and they'd use it for take off if they could.
The F/O's disengage the A/P and the A/T quite early on just about EVERY approach (although they do leave the F/D on), and do quite a nice job of hand flying the intercept and subsequent final approach.
With 17k something hours, I resist the temptation, and usually leave the whole shebang engaged until the last possible moment!
Are you telling me that you are working in Japan for less than local pilots?? Your conditions are less??
OTOH, some are better
We're trying hard to meet somewhere in the middle - it's a great way to play the management off against themselves!
(Always cry poor
)You seem like a fish out of water, JapJok - and from the sentiments expressed, you probably are, regardless of which country you live in!
(And you can be such a catty bitch when the mood swing takes you 
)You make a valid point, glekichi,
It got to the point where nobody would pick that I wasnt Japanese over the phone.
Several times I have had the experience of saying something in Nihongo to one of them, only to met with a blank look - however if a Japanese says the SAME thing to them, it isn't a problem.
Some of them just don't expect a gaijin to be able to speak Japanese (although I have to confess my ability is fairly limited).
would be interesting to know what GA pays like in Japan..
Very few of our F/O's have had G.A. experience prior to staring work with JAL - G.A. jobs are well paid, and few and far between.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suppose Kaptin, that the standard of Jap crews depends on where your own standard is.
From where I stand, their standard is very poor, Captains included.
Perhaps you stand in a different position in the line.
Shags, the Japcaps don't give many sectors to their own FO's. They have an attitude that there is noone so good as a Japcap/ God help us.
From where I stand, their standard is very poor, Captains included.
Perhaps you stand in a different position in the line.
Shags, the Japcaps don't give many sectors to their own FO's. They have an attitude that there is noone so good as a Japcap/ God help us.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: German Corner
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Japjok,
Is this across the board or specific to particular companies?
Do they do this out of selfishness, lack of respect for the F/O or have they got no balls and can't delegate making them overall a poor Captain?
Perhaps it's a practice passed on through the years and not challenged by the F/O's who won't make waves?
Shags
Is this across the board or specific to particular companies?
Do they do this out of selfishness, lack of respect for the F/O or have they got no balls and can't delegate making them overall a poor Captain?
Perhaps it's a practice passed on through the years and not challenged by the F/O's who won't make waves?
Shags
Last edited by Shagtastic; 21st Jan 2006 at 10:08.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
the Japcaps don't give many sectors to their own FO's.
But it isn't so with JAL Express.
The sectors are shared equally between Captain & F/O, unless there are certain operational conditions (x-wind >15kts, visibilty <800m, contaminated runway, wet non-grooved r/w, and a couple of others), that preclude the F/O from flying take-offs/landings.
I guess with your standard, JJ, we can expect to see you appointed Chief Pilot any day soon.
(...if anyone else besides yourself recognises it!
)
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by JapJok
I suppose Kaptin, that the standard of Jap crews depends on where your own standard is.
From where I stand, their standard is very poor, Captains included.
Perhaps you stand in a different position in the line.
Shags, the Japcaps don't give many sectors to their own FO's. They have an attitude that there is noone so good as a Japcap/ God help us.
From where I stand, their standard is very poor, Captains included.
Perhaps you stand in a different position in the line.
Shags, the Japcaps don't give many sectors to their own FO's. They have an attitude that there is noone so good as a Japcap/ God help us.
Still talkin' tough when the door is closed or at the gaijin bar...nice. When your trip starts though, you'll bow to the JCAB checkairman when he meet you at the gate and be a company "yes" man....nice facade. Be a man and say those words in public....yeah I thought so....you'll probably sign-up for another contract term and keep whinning about Japan.
Keep up the good work!!!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Other Places
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is an unfortunate fact of contract flying that a percentage of "senior" (whatever that means from one company to another) first officers are NEVER going to see a command during their career, and end up bitter and disillusioned.
JapJok appears to me, to be one of those.
Rather than moving on to another employer, to start at the bottom of the pile again, he would rather stay where he is now, but complain loudly to one and all of his "superior skills and experience" which are overlooked in favor of the "lesser experienced" local pilots.
If eventually forced to offer the JapJoks of this world an upgrade, it will be on lesser terms than their predecessors, but nonetheless begrudingly accepted as the 30 pieces of silver are traded off for 1 exta gold bar on the coat sleeve.
And he wonders WHY the Japanese consider him a lesser person.
JapJok appears to me, to be one of those.
Rather than moving on to another employer, to start at the bottom of the pile again, he would rather stay where he is now, but complain loudly to one and all of his "superior skills and experience" which are overlooked in favor of the "lesser experienced" local pilots.
If eventually forced to offer the JapJoks of this world an upgrade, it will be on lesser terms than their predecessors, but nonetheless begrudingly accepted as the 30 pieces of silver are traded off for 1 exta gold bar on the coat sleeve.
And he wonders WHY the Japanese consider him a lesser person.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Europe
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air Japan........again
Parc are advertising for contracts commencing Aug '06
Have been through all the stuff on Air Japan etc.
From anyone in the company; I am curious to know from which cities the commuters commute from? Pacific Rim? Oz? US? etc.
If the source of the commute was not an issue, which is the easiest/ most preferable location to commute from?
Thanks
Leviathan
Have been through all the stuff on Air Japan etc.
From anyone in the company; I am curious to know from which cities the commuters commute from? Pacific Rim? Oz? US? etc.
If the source of the commute was not an issue, which is the easiest/ most preferable location to commute from?
Thanks
Leviathan
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have been an FO in Air Japan for a few years now. I thought I'd clear some things up.
Shags: The only local pilots we fly with are senior management pilots, as they are not in the ANA pilots union. There are about 10 of them. They are very friendly, have no angst against us and realise the company needs foreign pilots as they can't train their cadets fast enough. Almost without exception they share flying sector for sector, I could count on one hand when this hasn't happened.
I will add though that during line training it is a JCAB requirement, at least at ANA, that FO's do not fly the aircraft. It's one of many unexplainable Japanese things with no answer, so we try not to think about it and definately don't ask "why?". Maybe this is where the rumour comes from.
5 FO's were upgraded to Capt last year and at least 6 more this year. 2 guys just finished their upgrade sims.
Kaptin M: FO's at Air Japan do NOT only fly with local Captains. Only about 15% or 20% of our flying is with Japanese Capts. ie. that is the percentage of local capts in AJX.
Leviathan: Almost all guys commute from Australia and NZ.
Cheers.
Shags: The only local pilots we fly with are senior management pilots, as they are not in the ANA pilots union. There are about 10 of them. They are very friendly, have no angst against us and realise the company needs foreign pilots as they can't train their cadets fast enough. Almost without exception they share flying sector for sector, I could count on one hand when this hasn't happened.
I will add though that during line training it is a JCAB requirement, at least at ANA, that FO's do not fly the aircraft. It's one of many unexplainable Japanese things with no answer, so we try not to think about it and definately don't ask "why?". Maybe this is where the rumour comes from.
5 FO's were upgraded to Capt last year and at least 6 more this year. 2 guys just finished their upgrade sims.
Kaptin M: FO's at Air Japan do NOT only fly with local Captains. Only about 15% or 20% of our flying is with Japanese Capts. ie. that is the percentage of local capts in AJX.
Leviathan: Almost all guys commute from Australia and NZ.
Cheers.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Between the oceans and the mountains
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is the current time to Command? Is there any Japanese pilot union politics here that would make life difficult when it comes to upgrade? Heard rumors that if a person broke a contract with a Japanese carrier prior, he/she will be black listed, and will no longer be able to get a job with any Japanese carriers. Is this a fact, or does it depends if you broke the contract in good term? Thanks for the info guys.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: South Africa
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air Japan Interview Process
Hey Guys,
Would like to gen up a little for a possible interview.
Does any one know of any good internet web pages which would have some Boeing 767 Gen?
What sort of questions are they likely to ask in the AJX interview?
Would like to gen up a little for a possible interview.
Does any one know of any good internet web pages which would have some Boeing 767 Gen?
What sort of questions are they likely to ask in the AJX interview?
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CFIT: So far has been 3.5 to 4 years to command. But if they only upgrade 6/year, as they seem to be doing then some guys will wait well over 5 years.
Rumors are that the ANA Union has a say in everything AJX does. It is never "in your face" stuff and we never have any dealings with the ANA line pilots.
It's only my opinion, but if you broke the contract and burnt your bridges at the same time, by telling them what you really thought, then I doubt you would work in Japan again. We had a guy who left on good terms though (personal reasons) and was told if he ever wanted his job back to just call.
I should add that AJX is far from a happy place, morale is rock bottom. Many guys will not be renewing contracts.
Rumors are that the ANA Union has a say in everything AJX does. It is never "in your face" stuff and we never have any dealings with the ANA line pilots.
It's only my opinion, but if you broke the contract and burnt your bridges at the same time, by telling them what you really thought, then I doubt you would work in Japan again. We had a guy who left on good terms though (personal reasons) and was told if he ever wanted his job back to just call.
I should add that AJX is far from a happy place, morale is rock bottom. Many guys will not be renewing contracts.