Types of managements at EVA & CAL...
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Types of managements at EVA & CAL...
The texts below is just an example of how the company is run in Taiwan. Threats managements!!!!
I note with interest and disgust the latest posting of a Green Tail Teller article by Captain Manzano from the 747 fleet. I find it both demeaning and threatening and will likely serve no purpose but to "piss off" his troops.
Examples of the message:
"Aside from the above mentioned event, there have also been other discipline events like not using reflective vest for walk around, one pilot dismissed from the company for failing alcohol breath test, improper language on ATC frequency and pilots missing flight assignments.
"Common denominator for the above mentioned events is lack of discipline. The lack of discipline to follow set policies and SOPs that are in place to capture the errors consequential to the threats.
"It is unfortunate that these events have placed our fleet in a bad light.
"To enable us to monitor and strengthen fleet performance, we plan to increase the number of spot checks and line inspections. So, you can expect Tony Lin, David Keng, Perry Poon, James Kuo or myself to join your flight or simulator sessions unannounced.
"Additionally, we have also made arrangement with Check Airmen from other fleets to conduct spot checks and line inspection for us.
" There may be other changes to follow with the aim of improving our performance. This will be announced accordingly.
" In the meantime, we want you to understand and be aware that everything we do has its consequences. It can be a credit for a job well done or the discipline that follows a violation or incident. We must understand that this is a fact. Please think twice before doing anything. "
I suppose "floggings will continue until morale improves."
Edited by ButtCaptain on October 03 2005 at 10:26pm
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"But, Captain..."
I note with interest and disgust the latest posting of a Green Tail Teller article by Captain Manzano from the 747 fleet. I find it both demeaning and threatening and will likely serve no purpose but to "piss off" his troops.
Examples of the message:
"Aside from the above mentioned event, there have also been other discipline events like not using reflective vest for walk around, one pilot dismissed from the company for failing alcohol breath test, improper language on ATC frequency and pilots missing flight assignments.
"Common denominator for the above mentioned events is lack of discipline. The lack of discipline to follow set policies and SOPs that are in place to capture the errors consequential to the threats.
"It is unfortunate that these events have placed our fleet in a bad light.
"To enable us to monitor and strengthen fleet performance, we plan to increase the number of spot checks and line inspections. So, you can expect Tony Lin, David Keng, Perry Poon, James Kuo or myself to join your flight or simulator sessions unannounced.
"Additionally, we have also made arrangement with Check Airmen from other fleets to conduct spot checks and line inspection for us.
" There may be other changes to follow with the aim of improving our performance. This will be announced accordingly.
" In the meantime, we want you to understand and be aware that everything we do has its consequences. It can be a credit for a job well done or the discipline that follows a violation or incident. We must understand that this is a fact. Please think twice before doing anything. "
I suppose "floggings will continue until morale improves."
Edited by ButtCaptain on October 03 2005 at 10:26pm
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"But, Captain..."
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etops777
I'll just take the first so-called example of a "threat":
Therefore are you saying that if you were in charge of operations, that such events are actually not "discipline events", and/or such things are otherwise quite acceptable occurences?
You mean you would not sack someone for failing an alcohol breath test?
"Aside from the above mentioned event, there have also been other discipline events like not using reflective vest for walk around, one pilot dismissed from the company for failing alcohol breath test, improper language on ATC frequency and pilots missing flight assignments.
You mean you would not sack someone for failing an alcohol breath test?
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I think what he is trying to say is that their is a tendency to lead by fear and intimidation as opposed to leading by example. The idea of having spot checks is ridiculous and will lead to a culture of fear which does nothing to improve the airline other than creating automatons who blindly follow policy even when it isn't prudent. They'll end up with a bunch of brown nosing snitches and others who are too afraid to do the right thing. It isn't the kind of environment that I would want to work in.
Typhoonpilot
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"To enable us to monitor and strengthen fleet performance, we plan to increase the number of spot checks and line inspections. So, you can expect Tony Lin, David Keng, Perry Poon, James Kuo or myself to join your flight or simulator sessions unannounced."
SIEG HEIL
SIEG HEIL
Last edited by BlueEagle; 8th Oct 2005 at 06:12.
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Foreign Worker
You are way over the top on your post .. I'm no fan of the b-ll sh-t in TPE but...make good comments say what you need to but what you are doing is distastfull and disrespectfull to say the least
29
You are way over the top on your post .. I'm no fan of the b-ll sh-t in TPE but...make good comments say what you need to but what you are doing is distastfull and disrespectfull to say the least
29
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typhoonpilot
I think what he is trying to say is that their is a tendency to lead by fear and intimidation as opposed to leading by example. The idea of having spot checks is ridiculous and will lead to a culture of fear which does nothing to improve the airline other than creating automatons who blindly follow policy even when it isn't prudent. They'll end up with a bunch of brown nosing snitches and others who are too afraid to do the right thing. It isn't the kind of environment that I would want to work in.
Is it not better for the personnel named, to conduct the checks themselves and observe first hand what is happening, instead of relying on "a bunch of brown nosing snitches", as you have put it?
When are checks most effective? When they are planned and therefore expected? Or when they are unexpected?
How does this "lead to a culture of fear"? Are you not a conscientious pilot who conducts himself more or less the same way whether or not he is doing a base check or a line check?
Or do you produce work that is in conformance with policy, SOP and performance standards only on those special days but otherwise come to work drunk, drugged or with a bad attitude?
If you have a problem with crew who "blindly follow policy even when it isn't prudent", then is it not also your job as a conscientious crewman to raise these issues and get the wrong policies corrected the proper way, instead of doing as you please?
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If you have been "doing the right thing" in the first place, then there is no need to fear any check, right? This may have been issued as a reminder for everyone that there WAS and IS a safety policy in place that any professional pilot working there should have been aware of.
Of course, sucking arse is present in any organization, be it asian or western. And I'm pretty sure EVA and CAL have a few suckers in their midst. It is just human nature. Some people are born into it, some make it into an art form! But to judge a safety policy to lead into such is a bit over the edge.
Of course, sucking arse is present in any organization, be it asian or western. And I'm pretty sure EVA and CAL have a few suckers in their midst. It is just human nature. Some people are born into it, some make it into an art form! But to judge a safety policy to lead into such is a bit over the edge.
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Gents:
Just trying to get some info, I have been invited to an interview, however am quiet hesitant about going because I have heard very negative things about CAL. I am currently on the 747 classic and will upgrade within the next 6 months. I was sent contract highlights but no payscale info. I would like to know, it is true that there is no opportunity for upgrade for expats? Also what are the current payrates? I have heard anywhere from 4600-5100 per month, for me that is a paycut and quiet low to fly a 747. Any info you gents can pass along would be greatly appreciated.
Just trying to get some info, I have been invited to an interview, however am quiet hesitant about going because I have heard very negative things about CAL. I am currently on the 747 classic and will upgrade within the next 6 months. I was sent contract highlights but no payscale info. I would like to know, it is true that there is no opportunity for upgrade for expats? Also what are the current payrates? I have heard anywhere from 4600-5100 per month, for me that is a paycut and quiet low to fly a 747. Any info you gents can pass along would be greatly appreciated.
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To xtwapilot,
So why not wait two years and comes as captain ?? Just an idea.
No upgrade for expats,
Last rumour gives even lower salary for F/O, check carefully before signing!
will upgrade within the next 6 months.
No upgrade for expats,
Last rumour gives even lower salary for F/O, check carefully before signing!
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I just got hired as an FO there and the contract that I signed is showing a monthly income (after doing the math) of US$5,100 to $6,000.
They also made it clear that they do upgrade expats, they have over 50 different nationalities over there and they upgrade by seniority not by nationality. How true, that's for me to find out.
They also made it clear that they do upgrade expats, they have over 50 different nationalities over there and they upgrade by seniority not by nationality. How true, that's for me to find out.
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Medwin,
Not true they do upgrade the odd token expat but for the most part it is locals first everyone else next ...they don't even upgrade the local pilots in order of seniority...it's mostly a political selection as in who spent the most of their days off working for free in the office. Also the locals need only 4000 hours logged to upgrade , expats are only considered if no locals meet the min qualification numbers.
xtwapilot
if you can get a 747 left seat where you are get it ....don't come as an F/O .
18 months ago 744 f/o started at 5300/month for 70hours then it went to 5100 now 4500 but most of the new guys don't have a type rateing so need a long course you would get a short course
these amounts do not include perdiem (4-600/month) or houseing about 1000 as a f/o more for a capt
get your left seat where you are or better yet apply to parc aviation for the NCA contract on a 742 way way better pay
29
they upgrade by seniority not by nationality
xtwapilot
if you can get a 747 left seat where you are get it ....don't come as an F/O .
18 months ago 744 f/o started at 5300/month for 70hours then it went to 5100 now 4500 but most of the new guys don't have a type rateing so need a long course you would get a short course
these amounts do not include perdiem (4-600/month) or houseing about 1000 as a f/o more for a capt
get your left seat where you are or better yet apply to parc aviation for the NCA contract on a 742 way way better pay
29
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Thanks folks, I had pretty well made up my mind about not taking the job because I sent them a message to give me the payscales several days ago and no answer yet. Also everything that I have read here really put the last nail in the coffin for me. Thanks again. BTW I think one of the biggest problems, at least it seems to me is that they can get people to work for 3300/month, if they couldn't, perhaps they would have to rethink things. Thanks again all.
Xtwapilot
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Thermal, just to shed some light onthe subject......
Its not. But when the Chief Pilot or a CA has a personal vendeta, then it is.
See above.
See above again.
Fear......
How about getting a review board for not wearing your reflective safety vest (picture was taken by a station manager somewhere).
Or some cabin crew that were fired recently for taking the unused bread off the plane AFTER the flight.
Doing a GA after being in reverse for 7 seconds on the ground because the captain thought he was unstable and if we go do a GA, then all is OK.
Landing a 747 with less than 4T (total fuel) after he thought he had an unstable approach.
How about being bypassed for an upgrade because you took too may days off after one of your parents passing away.
Being bypassed for an upgrade because you took too many days off for a surgery you had.
Being punished (though a bad schedule) because you didn't get in to your destination airport and had to divert causing delays and hassle for the company.
The BAC limit is .02 (not a typo either). I can trigger that with a fart.
Raise issues. Now you are labeled a bad guy and you are now on the black list. Go to top of page, read answer #1.
Not to mention ALL annual leave has been cancelled and days off shortened, outstation basings cancelled (or to be cancelled).
Read all about it here:
http://nankantraz.org/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1
OK, so how is having spot checks "ridiculous"?
Is it not better for the personnel named, to conduct the checks themselves and observe first hand what is happening, instead of relying on "a bunch of brown nosing snitches", as you have put it?
When are checks most effective? When they are planned and therefore expected? Or when they are unexpected?
How does this "lead to a culture of fear"? Are you not a conscientious pilot who conducts himself more or less the same way whether or not he is doing a base check or a line check?
How about getting a review board for not wearing your reflective safety vest (picture was taken by a station manager somewhere).
Or some cabin crew that were fired recently for taking the unused bread off the plane AFTER the flight.
Doing a GA after being in reverse for 7 seconds on the ground because the captain thought he was unstable and if we go do a GA, then all is OK.
Landing a 747 with less than 4T (total fuel) after he thought he had an unstable approach.
How about being bypassed for an upgrade because you took too may days off after one of your parents passing away.
Being bypassed for an upgrade because you took too many days off for a surgery you had.
Being punished (though a bad schedule) because you didn't get in to your destination airport and had to divert causing delays and hassle for the company.
Or do you produce work that is in conformance with policy, SOP and performance standards only on those special days but otherwise come to work drunk, drugged or with a bad attitude?
If you have a problem with crew who "blindly follow policy even when it isn't prudent", then is it not also your job as a conscientious crewman to raise these issues and get the wrong policies corrected the proper way, instead of doing as you please?
Not to mention ALL annual leave has been cancelled and days off shortened, outstation basings cancelled (or to be cancelled).
Read all about it here:
http://nankantraz.org/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1
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Ah lovely
Here we are squabbling amongst our professional selves largely around the indefensible. Average airline mgt must just love us.
MEDWIN
Please do us a favour, keep all these posts that you've posted,and the threads leading to them and revisit them in say 12 months time, a great deal of line pilots at EVA would be very interested in your views then, I sincerely hope your outlook is as positive.
THERMAL IMAGE
What started this post is a view shared by essentially a large majority of the line pilots at EVA. And thats that the company has little regard for the pilot body welfare, or its views. There's a genuine feeling that the mgt are quite prepared to use all avenues to achieve its goals. I doubt that anybody is defending that an airline shouldn't have the right to invigilate a standard, spot standards checks etc.. but there's a real sense of over intimidation with a untransparent punishment system. This is real... And is not normal in any well run successful airline, with a proavtive operations management.
Here we are squabbling amongst our professional selves largely around the indefensible. Average airline mgt must just love us.
MEDWIN
Please do us a favour, keep all these posts that you've posted,and the threads leading to them and revisit them in say 12 months time, a great deal of line pilots at EVA would be very interested in your views then, I sincerely hope your outlook is as positive.
THERMAL IMAGE
What started this post is a view shared by essentially a large majority of the line pilots at EVA. And thats that the company has little regard for the pilot body welfare, or its views. There's a genuine feeling that the mgt are quite prepared to use all avenues to achieve its goals. I doubt that anybody is defending that an airline shouldn't have the right to invigilate a standard, spot standards checks etc.. but there's a real sense of over intimidation with a untransparent punishment system. This is real... And is not normal in any well run successful airline, with a proavtive operations management.
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Your post is a clever mix of valid and invalid grouses. The stuff of a good story.
The first post by etops777 had no background to what he had posted, so he presented a weak case and ended up looking like some unhappy grumbler ranting away.
Now that you have provided more information, it might be more believable that there are indeed some evil and nasty types in CAL / EVA management waiting to get you. But this is not unusual at all. In just about every airline there will be some characters like that and sometimes they become senior enough.
If there is a bully in your group are you also not responsible if you passively allowed him to become that way? Or are you going to say that he is where he is, completely on his own "merit", in spite of concerted efforts to stop him from getting there?
So let's take your first remark about the safety vest. Is it your suggestion that a "review board" is much too harsh a punishment for not wearing the reflective vest? Since there is clear proof that the event took place, it cannot be mere accusation. Was it already clear to crew that they were to wear the vest (itself a safety-based, very legitimate instruction), and that failure to do so can result in review board consequences? Or was the review board an absurd consequence / abuse of power? Why have you left out such details? You need to be more convincing.
Moving on to the cabin crew being fired for the bread: SIA has also fired crew for similar incidents. They knew it was an offence. They took leftovers, got caught, were investigated and fired, end of story. In the case you mentioned, did the crew know that they were not to do such things? On the other hand, if your company has nothing in writing that prohibits the following, do you therefore then siphon out the kerosene from your tanks if actual burnoff is less than planned burnoff "AFTER" (following your example of using uppercase) a flight?
And finally, your remarks about the 0.02 BAC limit. Sweden also has a 0.02 limit. But to say that you can trigger that with a fart reveals your attitude towards instructions, authority and discipline.
Since there is such an obvious mismatch of expectations, and CAL or EVA management ain't leaving, then just put your money where your mouth is and leave.
The first post by etops777 had no background to what he had posted, so he presented a weak case and ended up looking like some unhappy grumbler ranting away.
Now that you have provided more information, it might be more believable that there are indeed some evil and nasty types in CAL / EVA management waiting to get you. But this is not unusual at all. In just about every airline there will be some characters like that and sometimes they become senior enough.
If there is a bully in your group are you also not responsible if you passively allowed him to become that way? Or are you going to say that he is where he is, completely on his own "merit", in spite of concerted efforts to stop him from getting there?
So let's take your first remark about the safety vest. Is it your suggestion that a "review board" is much too harsh a punishment for not wearing the reflective vest? Since there is clear proof that the event took place, it cannot be mere accusation. Was it already clear to crew that they were to wear the vest (itself a safety-based, very legitimate instruction), and that failure to do so can result in review board consequences? Or was the review board an absurd consequence / abuse of power? Why have you left out such details? You need to be more convincing.
Moving on to the cabin crew being fired for the bread: SIA has also fired crew for similar incidents. They knew it was an offence. They took leftovers, got caught, were investigated and fired, end of story. In the case you mentioned, did the crew know that they were not to do such things? On the other hand, if your company has nothing in writing that prohibits the following, do you therefore then siphon out the kerosene from your tanks if actual burnoff is less than planned burnoff "AFTER" (following your example of using uppercase) a flight?
And finally, your remarks about the 0.02 BAC limit. Sweden also has a 0.02 limit. But to say that you can trigger that with a fart reveals your attitude towards instructions, authority and discipline.
Since there is such an obvious mismatch of expectations, and CAL or EVA management ain't leaving, then just put your money where your mouth is and leave.
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Thermal Image
I've never been really in favour of accusing other pilots of being "a story teller, or a grumbler" on a rumour or discussion forum, such as this, I find it all a bit distasteful really. And i'm not sure at all if you work for EVA or have friends that do, this often helps in raising an opinion I find. But anyway, entitled to your own view you are. You're absolutely correct that an airline does have an obligation to assert a standard and to invigilate that with its workforce. But what is extremely worrying at EVA is that this is all done in a non constructive manner that is totally demoralising. What is most unfortunate is that most are following your sage like advice and are leaving
I've never been really in favour of accusing other pilots of being "a story teller, or a grumbler" on a rumour or discussion forum, such as this, I find it all a bit distasteful really. And i'm not sure at all if you work for EVA or have friends that do, this often helps in raising an opinion I find. But anyway, entitled to your own view you are. You're absolutely correct that an airline does have an obligation to assert a standard and to invigilate that with its workforce. But what is extremely worrying at EVA is that this is all done in a non constructive manner that is totally demoralising. What is most unfortunate is that most are following your sage like advice and are leaving