JAL admits safety wasn't top priority
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So here we are burning the Jap's on their safety standards and their CRM whist just above a thread is running on how the Yanks see British ops (airmanship CRM etc.) as, and I quote :
for running a 747 on 3 engines across the Atlantic… a bit hypocritical don’t you think. As it was stated earlier, others aren’t any better! (Unless of course anything that runs under FAA apparently).
absolutely, positively stupid
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I would have to agree with 841B as a generalization, although it is a bit harsh too, maybe. Yes, there are Japanese captains who are very competent and focused on safety. However the culture here equates more rules with safer operation, and in the process many pilots here lose sight of the big picture and focus just on obeying all the rules. Also, the culture assumes the copilot has very little experience and so the captains generally make unilateral decisions. Copilots are expected not to ever question the captain. In general I think CRM in Japan is about 30 years behind the western world.
N380UA,
Very different situations, the BA 'incident' was a controlled risk all the way through, all be it with a less than optimal outcome I agree. However none if that would have come to light had it not been for the Manchester spotters (and 50 odd pages on the subject in pprune)
However, we have an airline with 1 runway incursion at least this year, (by I believe two senior pilots within the company), several reports of parts falling from aircraft and other problems associated with poor management, poor CRM and endemic cultural issues.
Unfortunately I'm not even sure that a serious incident could change the airline, as whatever happens it will never be their fault, or alternatively some executive will pop out, apologise profusely and return to his desk.
Until the various national bodies, such as the FAA / CAA start to look at the CRM and cultural issues on this airline, and start blocking flights in order to start the change that is required, to avoid an aluminium shower, then the airline will never change.
I think the FAA (for example) should take a longer look at how an airline actually performs on a day to day basis and how it flies in its airspace, rather than specific incidents based around proven, managed SOP's...
and in answer to an earlier post I am personally very familiar with the Japanese disrespect of westerners and western methodology.
Very different situations, the BA 'incident' was a controlled risk all the way through, all be it with a less than optimal outcome I agree. However none if that would have come to light had it not been for the Manchester spotters (and 50 odd pages on the subject in pprune)
However, we have an airline with 1 runway incursion at least this year, (by I believe two senior pilots within the company), several reports of parts falling from aircraft and other problems associated with poor management, poor CRM and endemic cultural issues.
Unfortunately I'm not even sure that a serious incident could change the airline, as whatever happens it will never be their fault, or alternatively some executive will pop out, apologise profusely and return to his desk.
Until the various national bodies, such as the FAA / CAA start to look at the CRM and cultural issues on this airline, and start blocking flights in order to start the change that is required, to avoid an aluminium shower, then the airline will never change.
I think the FAA (for example) should take a longer look at how an airline actually performs on a day to day basis and how it flies in its airspace, rather than specific incidents based around proven, managed SOP's...
and in answer to an earlier post I am personally very familiar with the Japanese disrespect of westerners and western methodology.
Tsamaya sentle
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the BA 'incident' was a controlled risk all the way through, all be it with a less than optimal outcome
What is being discussed here are different risk-taking (or risk-averting) cultures, i.e. different attitudes and approaches towards translating a (potential) danger into a calculable risk. Basically all leading to the same outcome: compromising safety, or even safety breaches. The gist of many postings is that Japanese risk-taking approaches are inferior to "Western" risk attitudes. I am afraid that just because these approaches are different they are not necessarily inferior - in fact, some procedures might even be "better" than those practised in the "West".
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
JAL plane makes emergency landing
Japan Times
NARITA - A Japan Airlines jumbo jet from New York bound for Narita airport made an emergency landing Sunday at Shin-Chitose Airport in Hokkaido after oxygen masks in the passenger cabin were released due to reduced air pressure, JAL officials said. No injuries were reported.
The Boeing 747, en route from So Paulo via New York, made the emergency landing at 12:50 p.m., he officials said.
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Sources tell me that JCAB have taken control (impounded) the aircraft in Chitose to thoroughly examine it, with no JAL staff permitted access. This person also stated that many pax reported feeling cold for some time prior to the "decomp" and ensuing emergency descent.
A friend who was onboard the flight reported the airconditioning going quiet prior to the mask drop, and the emergency descent.
Japan Times
NARITA - A Japan Airlines jumbo jet from New York bound for Narita airport made an emergency landing Sunday at Shin-Chitose Airport in Hokkaido after oxygen masks in the passenger cabin were released due to reduced air pressure, JAL officials said. No injuries were reported.
The Boeing 747, en route from So Paulo via New York, made the emergency landing at 12:50 p.m., he officials said.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources tell me that JCAB have taken control (impounded) the aircraft in Chitose to thoroughly examine it, with no JAL staff permitted access. This person also stated that many pax reported feeling cold for some time prior to the "decomp" and ensuing emergency descent.
A friend who was onboard the flight reported the airconditioning going quiet prior to the mask drop, and the emergency descent.
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http://matt.carter.name/blog/2005/04...n-or-lack.html
As I was trying to find out what type and how old the 747 in the decomp incident was, I came across this report. Though sounding rather discouraging to ever fly with JAL again, it seems that this guy got a serous weed up his arse with JAL altogether. Have a look and judge for your self.
On the byby any clue on what the explosive sound on takeoff could have been?
As I was trying to find out what type and how old the 747 in the decomp incident was, I came across this report. Though sounding rather discouraging to ever fly with JAL again, it seems that this guy got a serous weed up his arse with JAL altogether. Have a look and judge for your self.
On the byby any clue on what the explosive sound on takeoff could have been?
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Does anyone else know about this report from the Dunnunda & Godzone forum?
JAL 747 landing gear snaps during pushback
JAL 747 landing gear snaps during pushback
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Bravo to all those backing JAL's honesty. OK, there is a suggestion that they may not have been as open on previous occassions, but credit where credit's due.
Safety prevention progress often hits a glass ceiling when the "safety is our top priority" brigade hit the streets. Get real- safety costs money. Money is a scarce resource. Money is the top priority.
An example of contrasting safety reporting. I was recently talking to two people about Foreign Object Damage at two airlines (both traditional, major, long haul players). One claims not to have had a single FOD incident in the last decade at Airport X. The other says that at the same airport they have scores of incidents each year costing millions of USD.
How can the airport operator justify safety prevention measures when the size of the problem is such an unknown? Please get the data out there!
Safety prevention progress often hits a glass ceiling when the "safety is our top priority" brigade hit the streets. Get real- safety costs money. Money is a scarce resource. Money is the top priority.
An example of contrasting safety reporting. I was recently talking to two people about Foreign Object Damage at two airlines (both traditional, major, long haul players). One claims not to have had a single FOD incident in the last decade at Airport X. The other says that at the same airport they have scores of incidents each year costing millions of USD.
How can the airport operator justify safety prevention measures when the size of the problem is such an unknown? Please get the data out there!
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http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/ge...20050615h1.htm
BREAKING NEWS
JAL plane loses nose wheel tires in Haneda landing
Compiled from Kyodo, AP
A Japan Airlines passenger jet lost the tires off its two nose wheels Wednesday morning as the aircraft skidded to a landing at Tokyo's Haneda airport, airline and airport officials said.
A Japan Airlines Boeing 767 sits on a runway at Tokyo's Haneda airport without tires on its nose gear after skidding to a stop Wednesday morning.
Airport authorities closed the runway -- one of three at Haneda -- where the Boeing 767 landed at around 10 a.m. with 222 passengers and crew on board from New Chitose Airport in Hokkaido.
Two passengers on the flight complained of neck pain, but no other injuries were reported.
It had been raining in Tokyo for about two hours before the accident.
JAL plane loses nose wheel tires in Haneda landing
Compiled from Kyodo, AP
A Japan Airlines passenger jet lost the tires off its two nose wheels Wednesday morning as the aircraft skidded to a landing at Tokyo's Haneda airport, airline and airport officials said.
A Japan Airlines Boeing 767 sits on a runway at Tokyo's Haneda airport without tires on its nose gear after skidding to a stop Wednesday morning.
Airport authorities closed the runway -- one of three at Haneda -- where the Boeing 767 landed at around 10 a.m. with 222 passengers and crew on board from New Chitose Airport in Hokkaido.
Two passengers on the flight complained of neck pain, but no other injuries were reported.
It had been raining in Tokyo for about two hours before the accident.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
......after skidding to a stop
If journos bothered to do even just a little investigative work, they would find that airline transport aircraft have ANTI-SKID systems incorporated into their systems - even the old F27's that All Nippon operate.
Nosewheels on ALL aircraft, have NO braking system.
If the aircraft took off with no problems - at speeds higher than the touchdown/landing speeds - then one can only assume that, perhaps, there was something on the runway that caused structural tyre failures. eg. a rock, or other debris, or a failure of the tyres themselves due to expansion/contraction at altitude and temperature. (Hokkaido is frequently 20 - 30 degrees at variance from Tokyo).
Two passengers on the flight complained of neck pain, but no other injuries were reported.
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I imagine a 767 with all tires missing on one U/C strut doesn't exactly smoothly coast to a stop either 
Video footage of what a locked wheel on a medium-sized airliner (CV-990) looks like from the outside
BTW: This is a wheel mounted to a testing fixture under the fuselage... not one of the aircraft's own main wheels.
Video footage of what a locked wheel on a medium-sized airliner (CV-990) looks like from the outside
BTW: This is a wheel mounted to a testing fixture under the fuselage... not one of the aircraft's own main wheels.
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I know that Kaptin, but I tought it would be nice to share it anyway.
And to make a point; how exactly is it totally irrelevant? This is just what a landing gear with no tires looks like when it's scraping along the runway, and to be honest I thought it was perfectly relevant for illustration.
Yes, I know it's not a 767 and yes I know it's probably not the same way as this happened, but I'm puzzled as to why you have to slam the door on me this hard.
And if you'd taken the time to look in my profile you would have known I am not a journalist. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings
And to make a point; how exactly is it totally irrelevant? This is just what a landing gear with no tires looks like when it's scraping along the runway, and to be honest I thought it was perfectly relevant for illustration.
Yes, I know it's not a 767 and yes I know it's probably not the same way as this happened, but I'm puzzled as to why you have to slam the door on me this hard.
And if you'd taken the time to look in my profile you would have known I am not a journalist. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings
Last edited by A-FLOOR; 15th Jun 2005 at 13:41.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It's irrelevant, because the video footage is of locked MAIN gear.
Why try to sensationalise a press release of a B767 that has (apparently) experienced a failure of its nose tyres, by providing a link to an aircraft of an unknown type, blowing its main tyres?
Gosh, with all the extra posts, why not let's try this one?
Why try to sensationalise a press release of a B767 that has (apparently) experienced a failure of its nose tyres, by providing a link to an aircraft of an unknown type, blowing its main tyres?
Gosh, with all the extra posts, why not let's try this one?
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No, it's not.
I already mentioned it was a CV-990, and that the footage is of a test with an 11th wheel mounted between the main gears for just this purpose. Not, I repeat NOT the aircraft's own main tyres.
For what it's worth, this is a picture of the setup on the old smoker, in-flight:
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Pho...93-41018-6.jpg
I still don't see why you're getting so worked up over a stupid video. Hard day at the office, perhaps?
I already mentioned it was a CV-990, and that the footage is of a test with an 11th wheel mounted between the main gears for just this purpose. Not, I repeat NOT the aircraft's own main tyres.
For what it's worth, this is a picture of the setup on the old smoker, in-flight:
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Pho...93-41018-6.jpg
I still don't see why you're getting so worked up over a stupid video. Hard day at the office, perhaps?
Last edited by A-FLOOR; 15th Jun 2005 at 14:32.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
So precisely"Why", did you decide to post this IRRELEVANT TO THIS TOPIC video here?
The video is all about locked/blown MAIN tyres/ wheels.
Nothing at all to do with the subject in hand - NOSEWHEELS!
At least we agree on ONE thing - "a stupid video......under the current debate topic!!
Okay, JAL B767's - the aircraft under discussion - have NO braking system on their nosewheels.
The video is all about locked/blown MAIN tyres/ wheels.
Nothing at all to do with the subject in hand - NOSEWHEELS!
At least we agree on ONE thing - "a stupid video......under the current debate topic!!
Okay, JAL B767's - the aircraft under discussion - have NO braking system on their nosewheels.
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I posted it because I remembered looking at it when I saw the picture on the JT website. And so I looked it up on the Dryden website.
Next time I find a video of blown nose gear tires I'll remember to post it right here, okay? Lighten up.
Next time I find a video of blown nose gear tires I'll remember to post it right here, okay? Lighten up.