Hello all....

I'm looking for a MR. FUSION who posted on here several months ago... if you're reading this please send me a PM.

OR

Is there anyone on here who has the simulator profile for the simulator eval? I would greatly appreciate it if someone could send me a PM with this info. Thanks!

This is not "back in the day", this was the package on offer up to what, 2010? And it is not a case of " well maybe its not great, but its better than...."
We ARE trying to discourage you! You are entering a dead end job, with no financial reward for that sacrifice, as you give Cathay the best years of your life accumulating experience that is unusable anywhere else.

Get a clue guys!

And the sheer fact that your intention is to discourage us rather than inform us is enough for me to look elsewhere for information. Thanks for making your ulterior motives clear Ash.

It feels like we're pawns in a bigger game here. Perhaps if enough wannabees are discouraged from applying to Cathay, existing Cathay pilots can maintain their current quality of life.

I for one will certainly not halt my career progression so that a Cathay pilot can make a statement to management.

Inform us objectively, or get off the thread.

Hi Guys,

I would really like to hear from anyone in Sydney who has a stage 1 interview in Brisbane on the 4th of November or round that time and who is interested in a study buddy, two heads/minds are better than one.

PLS PM me if you meet the above minimum requirements.

cheers.

The 2008 GFC never ended, it's only progressing. We saw the U.S banking system collapse in 2008, now we are seeing a global debt crisis and a currency crisis, it won't just be major banks collapsing in the future but we will see countries default. It's game over.

I am a current "iCadet".

What current CX pilots are saying here is very true.

At the moment my lifestyle is borderline satisfactory. It's certainly not great, or even "good". Eventually you will aspire for it to be more than satisfactory but under these terms it never will be. Please seriously consider exactly what I am saying because CX is a massive long-term commitment.

I'm not going to go into why its rubbish, for example the lack of job satisfaction as an SO, taking forever to upgrade, not being able to afford to do anything remotely interesting in Hong Kong, the fact your partner will almost certainly not want to live here etc etc. There are some positives, but the negatives outweight them ten-fold for me.

Looking back, I was incredibly naive to believe all the bull**** they told me about basings, upgrades etc. Its nothing like I thought it would be, or wanted it to be.

If you aspire to have any kind of lifestyle long-term then I strongly urge you to consider every other option before consider coming here.

Phase 1 in London
 

If anybody is going for the selection on 15 November please PM me so we can exchange infos and tips.

To the one who keep saying to look somewhere else as conditions ar S**t I say that I'd rather be in the flight deck than ,as is the case, in the cargo hold humping bags, if you have 5000h and a type it is probably not a good choice but if you don't than there aint many options out there.
Just my point of view.
All the best to everyone.
C84

First off, Dan_buster, how do you mean "informing you guys objectively"? What are your tangible supporting evidence for what you are trying to say on here? I think up to this point, a lot of things presented by individuals such as you on here are subjective in nature.

Secondly, ASH, I think most people here can appreciate your help to some extent. However, the truth of the matter is, everyone should still do their own due diligence. I think anyone who comes to a board such as this to make a life changing decision and takes the advice of anyone without doing their own research (ie personally talk to HR etc) should be labeled as dumb.

Third, in case if anyone forgets, we are in probably one of the worst financial mess since the great depression! High unemployment in Europe and US, now they are saying Asia/China, your target markets, will be affected! I am sure there are tons of young men and women who are in need of a job right now. It doesn’t matter how bad a package is, it is better than being unemployed, living at home and bumming off of your parents at 25. Also, if you think the package given to current iCadets are so bad, how do you think the other guy, who took out $100,000 in student loans to learn how to fly from no hours to a CPL and is now flight instructing, making poverty level feels? Hey, not only do you live poorly, you have a mountain of debt to pay back… Great!! What about the other dude who is now flying commuters making $20-25K and “hot racking” with his buddies as they can only afford a one bedroom apt in San Francisco when three or four of them get together? How about the airlines that are gracious enough to let low time pilots sit in the right seat for a “measly” sum of up to $50,000 with no guaranteed job once they complete the 500 hour "program"? Is that better than the iCadet package???

Lastly, to all the pilots and iCadets of Cathay. If things are so bad there, if the management and pay is so bad, you do know where the door is right???

You need to read a post two above yours Mad-Dog. Most of the guys posting are on the old package, as am I. We stay here as the housing allowance allows us to do ok to good financially. If there was no housing almost every last expat based in HKG would quit, honestly. I know I would. Current icadets are here as they have not been for very long, just spent a year training for this job, believed everything they got told in the interview, are chasing the carrot and shiny jet still. The longest serving icadet I expect is about 2 years as an SO.

What the guy posted two above you:

You could be stuck in HKG with no life, no relationship as can't afford one, unable to enjoy life for 10 years. Seriously it could be 10 years before you can move on. 6-7 years as an SO and the rest to get enough time to get a job back home. I know local guys do ok but that is because HKG is their home.

Obviously what is best for you is what you should do but do not think that people on here are all about protecting their own package, they are not, it is about trying to let you guys know what you are getting into as HR and CX bend the truth. Recently guys have been told 18 month to upgrade, I am pushing 4 years and they are going to be changing the training system SOs do to make the HKCAD happy with the SO rating for longer than 5 years which is the legal limit of a P2X rating currently. Basings, people have been told they can get a base when they are an FO, Auckland is about a 12 year wait as an FO so you have to pass up your command to go there, Europe not much better. To get a London base as a Captain you had to join in the mid to late 80s.

Yeah have a chat with HR and base your decision on that.

When you come to HKG for an interview, if you get one, go down to the bar one evening and have a chat with some current CX guys, they will be happy to help as most are a descent bunch and see what they have to say.

So what does "Ok" to "good" mean? What is "good" or "ok" to you may not be to the person standing next to you. It seems with the package they are offering now, you can get by on your own, maybe not "well", but it beats being unemployed, living at home with your parents which by the way, is the case for 5 million Americans between ages 25 to 35 right now. What kind of life is that? I think right now, Cathay's icadet would good to them as it is a guaranteed job for six years (ironically that bond is also a guarantee you will likely have a job for next six years in these turbulent and unpredictable times)

Maybe I am looking at this with too much business sense (maybe because I am finance guy working for a well hated Wall St. I-bank), but what incentives does Cathay have right now to pay someone "the old package"? Is their pool of applicants drying up? Do they not have to worry about potentially a second financial crisis that is looming (this time, govt debt which is 100 times worse than Lehman). Doesn't Cathay have to make back the billions they lost during the 2008-2009 turmoil so they have a war chest that can sustain them when they lose billions again?

Your notion of not being able to enjoy life for next 10 years etc, with due respect, is it your own personal experience? How can you say someone else would go down that same road? What do you base it off of? Frankly that doesn't have any meanings to me as I control my own destiny and happiness as everyone else should.

By the way, so are now admitting you want to build hours and jump ship, was that your original plan at Cathay? If that was the case, nothing against you as that is your prerogative and how you want to control your life, but I am sure Cathy would have been thrilled to find that out back when they hired you. Maybe in a senese, they got screwed too?

So regarding HR “bending” the truth, you don't think other companies/industries no matter airline, banking, construction etc etc do that? Promises of bonuses, promotions etc that never happen? First, don’t expect anything not written into a contract will happen. This is very common with bonuses which people get screwed on or told they will become a manager "in two years" or whatever. Did you or other cadets make Cathay put into writing when you would expect to upgrade? Second, maybe Cathay had told you what they plan to do in future but their plans changed because of changes in the business environment? (Like company wants to give you bonus but they can’t because they lost money for a particular year). Bottom line, don’t expect something if it is not in writing.

FYI, I love the pay for training programs, how they advertise. “If you pay us $50K, and you finish the program “satisfactorily” after 500 hours, we “may” offer you a permanent position.” Ha! They will really hire the next sucker who is willing to pay $50K to fly in the right seat! Now that is “bending” the truth at its finest.

I think with working/flying for Cathay, you have to expect to be in Hong Kong for your whole career. CX is an airline based in a territory of the PRC and also with at least 29% owned by Air China. If you want to be based out of London, go apply with BA, want to be based in US, choose one of the US carrier. If you chose Cathay, expect to be in Hong Kong, simple as that. Why would you expect to be based in Europe or anywhere not in Asia when you work for an carrier based in Asia?

One definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

That is exactly what they are trying, and repeatedly failing, to do. Of course current Cathay pilots have a union and they could take some action themselves, but that might expose them to some risk, so they'd rather you sacrifice yourself to help them out.

Good luck with that.

Since the point of this thread is to determine financial viability of the current contract, I'd rather pay attention to a pilot with a banking background than a sarcastic cynic.

You have to look at this specific industry as it requires lots of specific skills and training. There are jobs out there for pilots on A320 aircraft offering a tax free salary of over US$18,000 a month. There is a lack of qualified experienced pilots. CX could if they wanted offer a better package and attract quality experienced pilots but they chose not to as it is easier to pay a starry eyed wannabe well below market rates. They are not short of cash, they are making a fortune but finance guys like you have decided it best to get the cheapest guys possible. This is wrong, it removes jobs from people who have experience and will cause them huge problems further down the road. Many senior pilots are against this form of recruiting, cadets should be a part of it but in proportion. Expat cadets should be paid an expat package.


You judge yourself on those around you, at CX most people are on the same deal so you see how others are doing and those ahead of you and its comforting to know that you and your family will be ok. Same with friends in HKG, most are on better packages or similar as that is what it takes in my opinion (yes) for an expat with a family to be happy in HKG. Most icadets who have been here for a while are finding it hard.

No, they are an extremely well off company. They have already made as PROFIT far far more than they lost during 08-09. As a wall street guy am sure you can find this info.

Absolutely not. I enjoy my job and the time off it gives me. My career with Cathay will provide a comfortable and enjoyable life for me, my wife and kids. If they decide to reduce the deal that I signed up for then absolutely as it will only get worse and it is not worth living in HKG on a sub standard contract. I would rather do the same job at home for the same money.

Secondly, with Cathay don't expect anything that IS written into your contract will happen.


I am not trying to put you off. If you have 0 to very little time flying it is without doubt one of the best ways to get into aviation, a pretty boring way but still on of the best. Training paid for, job at the end if you pass, progression into a widebody in 7ish years, faster than through the GA route. Good aircraft, usually good people you work with, professional atmosphere. There are many good points but please don't think you are getting a good deal once you have experience you are not and NEVER will when at CX unless they up the package once icadets start to leave with experience. But this as you say is not written down so can't count on it, expect to be in HKG, like you said, for your whole career on a very poor package for the job you are employed to do.

It's not good
 

You can 'survive' as a single guy in HK on the current package but you can't support a family on it. Listen to the people on this forum who already live here.
Try looking up the cost of housing in HK for a 3 bedroom 1000sqft apartment in the cheaper areas of HK like Tung Chung or Disco Bay. This is the minimum you would want as a Westerner and see what you get.. The numbers don't add up.
All the iCadets I know are either actively looking for other jobs already or will leave as soon as their 6 years are up and they have marketable skills. The only ones who will stay are the ones who have family here or daddies who are Captains.
It's not good.

What is amusing is meeting all the icadet candidates at interview and everyone ignoring the big issue of pay, tax and living costs! On deeper inspection it usually means that the candidate already has a place in HK or has affluent parents who are already established in HK ergo living conditions not an issue. For us other lesser mortals it's a bit more grim...

Dan Buster et al, have all given the skinny from the inside but even the experienced guys, already in steady jet jobs at home and married with kids are tripping over themselves for a shot at the icadet scheme - it is rather bizarre if you ask me. Guys... have a word with yourselves, please!!

Of course, this is ignoring the fact that applying to CX is a cracking way of building interview experience! Just don't get carried away - that's my advice. ;)

VFE.

Hi there, good night to all!
What I have just read is that Cathay Pacific cadet program is not as easy and promising as it looks. I am interested as I am single, 25 years old, almost finishing a degree in Law in Spain. Here everything is crap. When you want a first time job they tell you: 1000 € a month (if possible), workshift 40 hour a week (eventhough those 40's go all they way up to at least, 10 to 20 hours more, UNPAID :suspect:) and of course, a looooong wait to get a better salary.
Then I find CP. Then I said: lets check at pprune. A-5, sunk ! :ugh: Last 3 pages of valuable information :D, though this info is really disappointing:uhoh:. 5 years to upgrade to FO ??? So, if I get the chance and taking a very big guess, I enter CP at 27, finish course at 29, fly SO for 5 years, so it takes me to 34-35 to be FO ??? :ugh: My god ! How about flying for another company then...?

Any piece of more detailed wisdom will be appreciated

EDIT: also, another question. When you are SO, what happens with flown hours? Do they count? If they do, do they count and are useable in case you would like to fly for another airline in the future?

Cheers

@ Dan_Buster
If you have read my original messages, my advice here is not to listen people such as yourself who speak negatively of the cadet program at CX, rather that one should do their own due diligence as everyone’s personal situation is different.


Coincidentally, isn’t one of the biggest gripes here how “bad” financially the new iCadet package is? Wouldn’t a finance person like myself be perfect to chime into this?

@sloppy joe:
There are several industries that require a lot of technical skills, and many that are much more complicated than piloting an aircraft that the salary (especially for entry level position) are significantly lower than what was offered a few years ago such as IT, Engineering. Keep in mind, there are still tons of people, a lot of recent college graduates out there who are unemployed. Pilots are no different, there are tons of licensed CPL and APL in the US (approx 125K CPL and 144K ATP (not including CPL) as provided by FAA) , the supply is great especially since there are still furloughs at major airlines and many qualified commuter pilots waiting for their shot at the majors. Additionally, flying is not what it was decades ago where a piloting requires significant experience and skill. With the current automation, piloting has becoming much easier and safer, hence why there are so many ab initio programs such as one at CX. Besides, for SO, isn’t their primary duties to monitor the system and radios, literally babysit the aircraft? I do not think you need much skill for that and you can almost pick any somewhat intelligent college grad to learn what the knobs and buttons on the MCP, FMC etc does. If you think CX is the only airline to look for no experience or inexperienced pilots, I can tell you several major airlines in Asia, Europe that would gladly take someone with little or no experience and pay “below market” rates, some you even have the honor of paying them! By the way, where did you see these jobs that pay $18K a month? This wouldn’t be airlines in China that require captains right? Please let me know where if not as I know several people who are A320 FO’s looking for jobs right now.
Just because a company which is flush with cash, does not mean they have to start being generous. Being fiscally responsible is most important with running any business as it is all about the bottomline. Business 101, increase revenue and cut expense (highest expenses generally come from salary, wages, “loaded costs” which is benefits etc). Wages should be adjusted via market rates like what most companies/industries are doing right now. If you set a low salary, qualified people are willing to take it, by all means, you get as many as you can, simple law of supply and demand. If the new wannabe’s don’t like the package offered to them, they can say “screw you” and walk the other way. Tell me, what is wrong with CX or any other company trying to save (cut) costs? By the way, there was a post not long ago on this thread, a guy applied to SQ and apparently the salary is lower than what CX is offering. You can say all you want, but the cost of living in Singapore is higher than in Hong Kong. I do not know if you see on the news in Hong Kong about this “Occupy Wall Street” movement. It is really about a bunch of people (actually a lot of them ex-hippies and losers) who are discontent about big corporations. If you follow the news here in US, you will see a lot of corporations are making money, most with record amounts of cash but no one is hiring. At least Cathay can say they are hiring. Besides, FYI, the CX loss for 2009 was approx $1.1 billion, albeit they did make back what was lost in 2010 and likely 2011 (results not avail yet), the industry is forecasting a pretty turbulent 2012 for the airlines. Let me ask you, would this be a good time to start paying more money or being fiscally irresponsible knowing 2012 is likely to be another bad year and further stagnation coming?
One of the things I keep hearing on here is how difficult it is to get by in Hong Kong on the current iCadet package. I think it can generally be agreed here that an SO in the first few years would make about HK$500,000/yr before any bonuses and taxes. However has anyone actually considered the fact that the GDP per capital in HK is approximately HK $250K/yr? Another words, an iCadet in Hong Kong is being paid twice the average person in HK. Before you start to compare to any other airlines etc, here in US, an entry level job for a pilot (after investing close to $100K in training) is a flight instructor making at best $20K or about half of the average a person makes in the US. Which airline can you name where someone with no time or “low time” makes more than the GDP per capita of the country the airline is based in?
Regarding the contract, CX has been keeping up with their end correct? If not, I would suggest that they be sued in court. I have done enough business in HK to know they have one of the best legal system in Asia (probably the world) as they follow the British common law system. Be glad you are not in half the countries in Asia where a contract has no meaning.
I like your last paragraph by the way, makes good sense.
Have a good weekend.

@OneBarWonder:
I think you said a key phrase in your post and that is “minimum you would want as a Westerner…”
In my post above, an iCadet package is around HK$500,000/yr before bonuses and taxes. This is twice the GDP per capita of HK$250K/yr. Another words, you are making twice what an average person in Hong Kong is expected to make.
With working and living overseas, one has to be prepared to embrace the culture and living standards of that country. If you go anywhere outside N America/Europe and expect to live as a westerner, you are going to pay through the nose. In reality, it is not the company’s problem one refuses to live the local standard as an expat. It is really difficult to say you cannot “survive” or “live” in HK on the current iCadet package as you are already being paid twice what an average person makes. The iCadet package is doable, the question is, are the wannabes prepared to live like they are a local, eat the street vendor foods and put aside their western expectation?

SQ Vs CX
 

As correctly pointed out, it is in fact true with the situation in SQ. To say the least, I would not be looking in here if SQ provided a fantastic package. In fact, over the years, the expat community has been dwindled to almost negligible with foreigners taking local terms to remain in the company.

SQ has since started major recruitment from India for cadets and that is the sign to come. As a comparison, A wide body Captain in SQ makes less than an SFO, not counting in bonuses and different tax rates. Cost of living is also high in Singapore and it definitely is a much much smaller place to live in. Just for a comparison, you will require to buy a Certificate of Entitlement just to own a car above 1600cc. At current rate, its approximately 60K USD without even the car price yet!

Not to go about a major comparison between the two, but I think even in Asia, major airlines are losing out to pay packages to LCC and Budget operations like TigerAirways and Jetstarasia in terms of pay packages. Command comes quicker because guys I know are flying 90-100hrs a month and have to be throttled back to not bust the 1000hr/yr restrictions in Singapore.

By all standards, the industry practice of paying great expat rates looks archaic and would definitely be revised as it is evident. I would definitely look at it in a long term perspective to join a company that you see yourself in for at least 20yrs and there is really no gripes with being rewarded only after 12-15yrs when loyalty is not is question. A trait so often missing these days.

Guys, just let 'em go. I have never seen such spirited defense for a dead end job.

And to Mr. Mad Dog, I am going to be very frank with you. We do get a bit personally offended at this whole "cadet" scheme for a few reasons that I dont expect you to undestand.

The Cathay Pacific we joined was not a place we went because it was the least ugly pig at the trough. Or because, hey, it beats throwing bags on the tarmac. We all worked our butts off to get here, building 1000's of hours as Captains in our own countries. We spent months preparing for what was industry known as the toughest job to get on the planet. Out of the 20 guys I interviewed with only 6 got hired, and they were all the cream.

Yes, we get offended as people are treating with flippancy what we worked so hard to obtain. We are seeing the decline of a once great airline before our eyes, and unfortunatly the icadet is the new face of that decline.

Cheers.

Mr. Ash,
I can understand you being offended with this iCadet thing but what I don’t think you, or anyone else who is a seasoned pilot here understands, is, the GOOD TIMES ARE OVER!

It sucks when you work years for a job and then get pissed on. I know! You know why? Because worked hard in school and went to a prestigious college, got a position with a large investment bank in Wall St. in late 1990s, made my first million before age 25, lost some in when the internet bubble burst, made a got few other seven figure compensation package in the mid 2000’s but you know the kicker is, all that bonus etc were in stocks that are worth less than a quarter of their value today!! What is even worse is now I go to work, you get branded the scum of the earth by this stupid “Occupy Wall Street” movement. How would you like it if you went to work every day, work 15+ hour days (averaging close to 100 hours a week), make well less than what you made before, not knowing if today would be your last day since Sept of 2008 and get spit on by a bunch of lazy punks in this baseless movement. Do you think you have it bad now????


I think you have to come to grips with the fact there are hundreds of millions of people from developing countries that are just as smart, if not smarter than us, have harder work ethics coming to this new global economy and they are willing to work for a fraction of what a western is paid. Now you tell me, why do you deserve to be put on a pedestal???

Good day!

Yes, yes, yes..... Upset when it affects your status and job satisfaction but you are so full of comment about professional airman defending the STANDARDS that promote and keep SAFETY as the HIGHEST priority, and not profit margins which the likes of you (it seems) prioritise as most important.

What a naive and ignorant comment. "Good times"?? Since when is paying a competitive and well earned / deserved salary, as well as terms and conditions to be deemed "good times". So I suppose in your eyes a person without a job has the right to call those with the job they earned through hard work, a hell of a lot of sacrifice, dedication and education and getting paid accordingly as "spoilt" or existing under "good times" because to the wannabe all should feel as he/she does, ie self deserving? And if it takes lowering of the profession standards as well as remuneration to short-cut a path, that is OK?

But I will agree that in all too many airlines the "GOOD TIMES" (as you put it) of highly trained and experienced pilots is over.

The 'GOOD TIMES" of passenger safety is over as well.

.........And hence the tragedy here of a once great and revered airline that is nothing but "just another airline" racing to the bottom for what? GREED.

Again, utter dribble and stupidity. So, do your due diligence, just don't listen to anyone with first hand experience, knowledge and information about the very job these kids are seeking. No wonder you are so concerned about your job on "Wall St" if your levels of due diligence is to preclude such sources. You are perfectly suited to the icadet program!!!!!!

A pedestal? No. A fair, competitive salary, as well as terms and conditions reflective of that required to pilot a sophisticated jet transport..... And not if but WHEN things go wrong the likes of "Mad Dog" will be peeing his pants and screaming from the economy seats for the dear pilot to save his life. Oooops! That kid at the controls has ZERO experience outside of the CX umbrella whose simulator training went from 12 to 10 and now SIX sessions as the iCadet aircraft handling training prior to being released to line training, all to save money. His/her TOTAL experience of "tricky" aircraft situations has been inside an air-conditioned box with the 'PAUSE SIM" or "CRASH INHIBIT" function available to Capt Nigel Black (who sells his time and profession out for free on pretty ads promoting a company who seeks to lower recruitment standards, salaries and training levels all to line their own pockets and "profit", all the while his own salary is untouched and doing just fine!!!!). That kid who you rely to save your sorry tail is paid exactly what his skills are and worth - bugger all.

And you say CX needs to make the "billions" it lost during the GFC? "Billions" Maybe if you're referring to the Zimbabwean dollar. Otherwise, you show how little you really know. CX now offer salaries and packages approximately SIXTY PERCENT lower at a time of RECORD PROFITS. Morals? Integrity? Then again, you're a banker (apparently) so I assume through conductive reasoning that such terms are alien to you.

Bet you wish CX recruited, trained, paid & treated it's pilots better at a time when you or your own are on a CX flight when an iCadet SO is alone in a cockpit while the other pilot with 1000's of hours experience (& paid accordingly) is taking a leak. Then again, you don't care because you just saved $20 on a ticket and prefer to rely on "luck" in lieu of "SAFETY".
(That $20 you think you "saved" actually made the airline probably 10 times that. And that makes the travelling public who believe as you do fools).

The HK legal system? Again, you show your ignorance. Do some reading on the CX - AOA relationship before mouthing off on labour laws that you know nothing of. A little book - best seller - was written not long ago highlighting the past 15+ years of CX's relationship with its employees, mainly pilots. Black & white contracts ignored, court case taken and won, then overturned by the highest courts without any need of precedent or justification..... And that same case is going on today 10+ years on.

And here you are mouthing off about "due diligence" regarding people getting in to conversations or situations without doing it!!! (All be it to ignore those with factual comments, experience and knowledge that may not suit the rose colour all too many seek). If you are a "banker", or any profession for that matter, then it is no difficult brain teaser to discover why you lost so much money and worry for your own job! Hell! Who would invest with you if this is your level of knowledge and comprehension????!!!

Hope those "Wall Street" protesters don't make you spill your laté. Those protester can label scum as they please. Most pilots (or reasonable humans) label scum as those who believe the shear and shameless greedy chase for more, more and more money can be at the expense of safety, standards and morals; especially at a time of record profits and self anointed massive salary bonuses. Where you lie on that issue is your own conscience, but your opinions thus far speak for themselves.

Mad-Dog

You really need to do more research before you start justifying the actions of the company we work for to us.

This has been done many many time, we have won many many times, it has been overturned many many times. The HKG legal system is a joke when it comes to workers taking on companies. Blatant breaches of contract on multiple occasions to multiple people worth multi million dollar amounts.

Can anyone please tell me the oldest person recruited under the CX scheme to date?

Hi Guys,

The last few pages have turned into abit of a slaying match, threat is veering alittle off track but for the rest of you, I would really like to hear from anyone in Sydney who has a stage 1 interview in Brisbane on the 4th of November or round that time and who is interested in a study buddy, two heads/minds are better than one.

PLS PM me if you meet the above requirements.

cheers.

Pay comparison
 

Guys,

I have been doing a bit of research and found this document:

http://advertising.scmp.com/recruite...de_hk_2010.pdf

Cathay say $45000 a month for an SO, which looking at this seems okay.

The Boat.

theboat

How many times have we got to tell people this? That is only one side of the equation. You also need to look at a comparison of the cost of living. This seems to be something most wannabes seem to be ignoring unfortunately. For the record I have flown with two iCads in the last month, both of whom are looking at leaving because of the cost of living in Hong Kong.

boat, I applaud you for at least doing a little research.

What is missing from the SCMP table is a significant issue - housing. I guess it depends on what you're used to, but for the vast majority of expats, living with mum and dad doesn't do it, nor is an option here either.

I was in Causeway Bay yesterday (not a flash neighborhood by any measure) and saw several units advertised for sale/rent at $2,000,000 to $2,400,000 range or rental at $10,000 per month.

I suppose it's doable on the CX "allowance" but it's pretty abysmal, by any measure. One room, no stove, pull chain toilet, that sort of thing.

In any other country, the buildings would be in a ghetto, or near condemned status.

I've also flown with a few iCadets these past months, and to a man, they're not optimistic nor inspired for the future - the bleak reality of an existence not a life, is looming.

Think twice.

Cpt. Underpants-

You've hit the nail on the head:

the bleak reality of an existence not a life, is looming.

Sincerely,

One of the many disillusioned iCadets.

I just finished reading this whole thread and I must say I am very disappointed :(
- I can't believe that there are people who are applying for this job not knowing what PPL is. I did a research on it when I was 12 y old knowing already what I wanted to do. FLY. Is it possible you want to do this as a career not knowing basic??? It tells me u never wanted this, and the only thing making you to consider this job was Top Gun or Catch me if you can. So sad!!!
- On the other hand, these senior captains from Cathay. Guys let us bring our own decisions. You are not aware of our current situations. Everybody see this job from their own perspective and ours are not even similar.
I am coming from the flying family and nobody was as negative as you on this thread. We have so many friends in CX and they were very honest about the negative side of this job offer, but at the same time they pointed out good parts of it.
At the moment I am flying to doggiest places in the world in company with not such a good safety record for less money that I will be left after paying accommodation in Hong Kong.
On other side I got an offer to work for a big, stable and safe airline as CX being, how you say, your "bitch" for a few years. big deal!!! Done much worst!!!! :}
The worst case scenario, I do 5y and bugger off if everything is so bad as you r saying!!!!
I know everything is Financial bull****!!!! And it's very hard to keep benefits for your senior crew when company is trying to cut money wherever possible, starting with the SO program.
But please let us be and stop being so negative while on your 3 days layovers, by yourself, bored, frustrated and too old to pick up one of the cabin crew members.
Your bitching on this page will not stop SO program and this way you will just get less and less experienced people and get stuck with these I wrote about first!!!

To everybody else, GOOD LUCK!!!!
Hong Kong is fantastic, but check it first, you have to see are you able to live there before you except this job. :ok:

404 Titan
 

This may be only one side of the equation, but when compared to other professional salaries it appears to be a reasonably balanced equation!
Obviously the cost of living is higher than one might like, but that does not negate the fact that the starting salary (and if you look at other professions in the link you will notice that to reach this salary takes some years) is competitive.
I am not arguing for a second that the cadet programme is the deal of the century, but it is better than having no job. That is a fact.

Fact: your take home won't take you home.

The housing portion of your after tax salary is so disproportionately large (if you choose to live in a spot where browbeaten underperforming high school students aren't flinging themselves off rooftops) that you WILL be on subsistence wages.

Factor in a belligerent, uncaring management who cannot understand the value of motivated, happy employees, and it's not worth it.

Come for the SNJ factor if you must, but there ARE many better options out there.

There may be better jobs out there, but that does not make this a bad job!!! Also, for a low houred inexperienced pilot I actually doubt there are many better jobs. Take BA Citiflyer's Trainee Entry Pilot scheme which is currently open. £22000 a year and you have to live within 90 minutes of London City airport. Oh, and you need a fATPL just to apply.
I can't comment on belligerent uncaring management as I have never worked at Cathay, but this appears to be becoming pretty common across the industry. The two main recruiters in the UK of low hour pilots? Ryanair and Easyjet. At least at Cathay you work for Cathay....

...so you're happy to be on a par with a (locally born and raised) bank manager, who earns about $43000 a month?

A local manager who whiles away the hours in the Tai Kok Tsui branch of DBS, takes lunch breaks from 12:30 till 2, and goes home to his 500 sq ft flat to eat (local) fish or chicken and a bowl of rice...night after interminable night?

Can't afford anything but local TV (TVA and TVB), and buses to and from work, cheek to jowl with the other 90 percentile here?

You truly believe it's "reasonable" to be paid like him?

The fact that a mistake YOU make may cost millions of dollars and possibly many lives, isn't a factor in your reckoning? Your licence (and livelihood) being on the line semi-annually isn't a factor? The endless hours staring into the dark in the wee hours on your third trans polar flight that month, doesn't reckon with you? The ****e hotels and sub standard "food" on board doesn't bother you a bit? The little bump on your forehead that itches after a few years here, isn't an issue?

I believe your reasoning is seriously flawed.

Cathay (mis) management will LOVE you. Come on down. In fact, you can pay US to fly. The jets are BIG, SHINY and NEW...

One more thing: WRONG. VETA or USAB, or VETA Canada, or VETA Australia, NZ, UK...

So let's get this straight. A 20 year old Cadet programme graduate can earn the same as a bank manager (local or not)? That seems pretty reasonable to me seeing as the 20 year old has absolutely zero experience in the industry!!! Is this the same 20 year old who on promotion to FO will have his pay almost double?
I believe your reasoning to be seriously flawed. Continually on this thread it is highlighted how little responsibility an SO has, yet when it suits the argument the SO can make mistakes that cost millions of dollars? Seems like flawed logic to me.
For the record I will not be coming on down to pay you to fly, as I am quite happy where I am. I am simply fed up with aspiring Cathay cadets being fed tired old rhetoric when all they are asking for is advice.
The fact is that the Cathay cadet programme is a good option for some people. Maybe not for you, and maybe not for me. However there are those out there who want to be pilots and this is one of the better ways to become one at present. It's not perfect, but can you tell me where is? What is the option for these young "wannabes"? Retain the moral high ground by not "paying to fly" or accepting lower terms and conditions than you are used to? Well if they do I hope that McDonalds have a branch on said high ground.
Also, for the record, I think it's quite arrogant to assume that a Cathay SO is worth more per month than a local bank manager.

I am interested in applying for the SO program. However, I would come under the Transition training (I have 1650TT and about to finish my ATPLs). I believe the time required to train would be shorter. But I have also been told that I would not receive any pay during the training. Can someone confirm this? How long does the training go for? And does Cathay provide accommodation in Adelaide during the course?

Now, I have looked at accommodation prices in HK on various property websites and on expatforum.com. I have a friend who's in HK as a Cathay SO who is paying about 20k HKD per month for a room in a flat. Factor in other living expenses which would cost another $15-20k (Cost of Living). On a salary of 45k, this seems affordable. Now, is the 45k the base salary and the SOs get flying allowance on top?

So far, how accurate am I with my estimates? The reason I am asking these questions is that I am interested in the Cathay cadet program, but I am reading a lot of negative stories about it (My SO friend is very happy, he has just started his training).

I have been offered another job which would pay for accommodation and food expenses but I would end up flying SE turbo-props for another two years whereas with Cathay, I am flying for Cathay!

It is a hard decision as I have always dreamt working for Cathay. I do not wish to give up on Cathay just because times are tough and Cathay are taking measures of cost cutting. If they are doing this for sake of making more profit and I decide not to apply, who then misses out? I end up flying turbo-props while I watch others fly for Cathay. Grass is always greener on the other side?

So many holes in those arguments kids.....

Yeah - that way the "experienced" and "qualified" pilots were pre-screened. That's how it used to be but as been said so often if you pay bananas you will attract monkeys.

No. Having the slightest fibre of INTEGRITY is better than selling out yourself, your industry and your (hopeful) colleagues.

No again, kid. What you are sick of is reading or asking advice and just not liking what you are told. If you seek advice then be prepared for the good and the bad. In your case - and like many before you - you choose to only want the rose coloured version. 95% of those doing the job you & other seek, for the airline you and others want to work for give you the cold FACTS, but your naivety and ignorance chooses to disregard or discredit that same advice that was asked for.

You would. Before the iCadet program pilots had "skills", "experience" and "credentials". Most even had "integrity". With those attributes came "responsibility" that the travelling public entrusted them with to, when the proverbial does hit the fan, save their life. And at the very least get them from A to B in an extremely demanding environment safely. For this suitably qualified pilots were paid accordingly. Now such pilots are just not wanted by CX because they refuse the insult that is the present package (refer the many pilots who turned down the offer from the DESO hold pool). Bankers wager ON risk for different calculated levels for profit. Pilots and airlines (used to) do all they can to remove risk wherever possible. Bankers get paid when their GAMBLE comes off. 300+ people die when an airline's GAMBLE at placing an inexperienced kid in a seat and the LUCK of the AP and systems fails: the risk did not come off.

I believe the name is "Gimp". Whoring yourself is nothing to be proud of, then again you seem to defend it. Again, welcome to the new breed of CX applicant when the bar is lowered so pathetically low.

So, just call a spade a spade. Most iCadets are their not for their skills, knowledge, credentials and definitely not their experience, but because they are the CHEAPEST OPTION. Plain and simple. Sorry if that opinion (call it advice if you want) does not agree with your ego that needs a cheap and nasty short cut into a job that is detrimental to the aviation industry as a hole.

Flyboy is your perfect example. Whilst he'll get all offended, he's asked the same damn questions that have been posted a few hundred times on this and the other threads:- to which very in depth answers have been given. There lies your professionalism standards and true determination to research facts.....

I can't log into update my application!!! What do I do?? (To do what? Inform CX you just finished "Biggles Goes to the Zoo"?)

How much does it cost to rent a flat in HK??

How long will I be an SO and till I'm a / FO / Capt????

Is Cathay hiring now??

Can anyone tell me about the Cathay cadet program?

hey ewes i dust red dis stuff n wanna be like...whatever n stuff coz its reel cool n stuff dont be hat'in on me n stuff coz i wanna fly n stuff wheres hongkong n do they speek good inglish coz im gonna be a pilot like da tv shows...

Fly_boy....take the turbo prop job. OWN your hours. OWN your future. You'll be a better pilot and a better person for it. You'll earn less money in the short term but in the long term and bigger picture you will
a) maintain your integrity
b) be a better pilot
c) earn more money (long term) and retire better than an iCadet because your first 4-6 years of flying accrues HOURS. An iCadet accrues NONE. The SO P2X rating is not recognised outside of the HK CAD / CX umbrella. You don't like CX after 4-6 years as SO? Where are you going to go with what hours? You haven't even the hours or experience for light twin job meat-bombing somewhere, let alone a C210 charter job: because you have NO HOURS.
d) be in the left seat of a jet sooner
e) your colleagues will respect you.

You're entitled to your opinion ChinaBeached, even if it's totally wrong!

'ChinaBeached'
 

(To do what? Inform CX you just finished "Biggles Goes to the Zoo"?)

CLASSIC!!