Cadet Pilot Ts & Cs

[SmilingKnifed]

Ladies and Gents,

A couple of questions regarding the cadet scheme (happy to hear your views too!).

I'm a 29 year old Q400 senior F/O here in the UK with 2000+ hours and 1000+ on type. I applied to Cathay as an SO a couple of years ago and have always had a strong attraction to working there (my elder brother is now an F/O on the 777, via the SO route, and I'm keen on Hong Kong).

Obviously SO recruitment is a non-starter right now and I've been invited to interview for the cadet scheme later this month. I have a full ATPL and don't quite know where I fit into this scheme. I'm told there's no housing allowance, but what are the other T&Cs? Can someone give a vague idea of time to upgrade?

My issue in simple terms is that, while working for Cathay in Hong Kong has been an aspiration for some time, I'm concerned about being able to afford it and whether at this stage of my career it's the right move for me.

Many thanks

SK

[Cedar Tree]

Take a look at the cost of rent in HK and you will quickly find your conclusion. Upgrade to JFO will be 5+ years. My advice, stay where you are and look at other options. Without housing in HK, after acquiring your licensing and experience, I think it would be a poor decision financially to make this move. Quality of life vs income, you'd be better off with airline opportunities in Europe. I'm sure your brother has said something similar. With your experience, only accept a direct entry SO package with housing.

Cheers

[kyandy]

Ask yourself what do you want?
Which company will give you a better opportunity in future?
May I ask when did you apply for CPP?
Cheers
Regards,
Kyandy

[AQIS Boigu]

SK,

Thanks for your sensible and very mature post - most guys younger than you just got the SJS (shiny jet syndrome) and jump at the opportunity without checking the facts (and T&Cs).

Please talk to your brother and you will find out that the cadet scheme is nothing else but a cost cutting mission by the bean counters. How someone with your experience can be called and invited for selection as a potential CX cadet is beyond me (besides for the reason above).

Looking at your age I presume that you will plan to have a family and a few kids at some stage and there is no way you will be able to survive financially (a captain I flew with the other day called the international cadet scheme a "financial suicide mission"); therefore please do the numbers and make a sensible decision.

Since you will be on local conditions the medical AFAIK is the same and they are discussing some education allowance for locally employed pilots; further you will have the same provident fund as every other "B Scaler" (15.5% into a Fidelity account - you can choose how you want to invest it) and staff travel entitlements as everyone else minus possibly your annual confirmed ticket home (there are no international cadets currently working for CX - they are all in ADL atm so not much intel out there - the only non chinese cadets here are people who were born in HKG or have a HKG permanent ID card).

I do realize that working for CX is an aspiration for you as it is/was for all of us CX pilots here but unfortunately the aspiration died with the introduction of this international (cost cutting) cadet scheme. Upgrade time is 5+ years plus hence the idea of using CX as a stepping stone purely to get some widebody jet time is not very practical either.

When I joined I had similiar experience and was about the same age; if I was in your boat I - if I may - would suggest the LCC avenue in Europe and then head to the Middle East or Asia once the market picks up again.

All the best
AB

[kalavo]

What's the word on the grapevine within Cathay - is DESO or DEFO on the cards again any time soon? If/when DESO comes back will housing be included?

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Unfortunately without housing you will be very poor in Hong Kong and unable to lead a reasonable lifestyle. If your going to be poor be poor in you own country.

[donkey123]

Smilingknifed.

I am in a very similar position to you. ATPL 3000+hrs, 2000 heavy turboprop.

I too have always had an ambition to work for CX. So much so that I even went on a sortie a couple of years back to HKG just to make sure that I could actually deal with living there if the chance came up. About that time I also started doing the sums to see if it was financially viable with regard to renting an apartment and generally living in HKG with a DESO salary. It really did shock me just how much it would cost to just exist in HKG (that was with housing allowance). But I was still very keen nontheless.

So learning about the Cadet scheme being open to internationals was a bit of a kick in the guts. But, I thought one day things will pick up and they will surely have to hire DESO again and pay expat terms.

This is just never going to happen when people with your kind of experience are applying for and accepting CADET positions with CADET T's & C's??? Are you really a Cadet???

Not having a personal dig at you at all. We can all make choices, and I guess you asking questions here means you have your doubts.

I would just love to see the ex pat DESO scheme fire up again soon.

Donk

[SnotNoseJockey]

So those of us with experience (4000tt, cap on a TP) are stuffed either way.

Either we wait forever for big brother to recruit (air nz or qf for us dunnunda folk) or sell our souls to the LCC's and cop flak for driving down conditions.

Might seem a little dramatic on my part, but it's bloody heart breaking to see guys who were only a couple of years ahead of you sitting at CX when you know it's a dream you'll never realise.

[kalavo]

Summed it up nicely SNJ. I've got a few hours less than you, but not that far behind. Guys with your sort of experience here are taking a large pay cut to go to Jetstar NZ because Jetstar Oz (similar pay to turboprop command) aren't employing until January.

One of the Check and Trainers at another company here applied for the Jetstar Cadetship! Got through two interviews before they realised he had an ATPL and said he wasn't eligible for the cadetship. Interestingly though they offered to progress his application as direct entry (an application he'd put in 7 months earlier but hadn't heard boo from). He declined stating if it took them two trips he had to pay for to Melbourne how many more would it take to realise there was some box he didn't tick with Direct Entry. But there you go, willing to pay $80k for an A320 endo when guys with less experience than him are only paying $20k.

It's not my favourite option, but the majority of people seem to be playing a game of musical chairs - grab a seat, any seat, at any cost (though if it happens to suit you even better), tick as many boxes as you can in that seat and hope the music starts playing again in a few years time - with only a handful of guys opting to stay in GA until something better is offered. Welcome to GA with Jets.

The FH guys seem to be encouraging it with HKA.

The shipping industry saw a similar change a few decades ago - people went from starting their apprenticeships to becoming a Ship's Captain and had a 40 year career with the same company. Now everyone jumps from job to job and company to company to get ahead - the good news there at least was pay increased after the initial drop in conditions.

[GTC58]

There will be no DESO in the future, as there will be a new cadet short course offered for applicants with min. 1500 hours and ATPL. It is only slightly longer than the old DESO course. The only reason why it is called a cadet course is to save housing. This new course is planned to start beginning 2011.
More interesting is, that the idea came after looking at the huge amount of international cadet applicants which fulfill and/or exceed these minimum requirements.
Heard that the CX cadet program had close to 15000 applications since opened internationally. As long as the international cadet program attracts enough qualified applicants I can't see any reason why to hire DESO.

[MilPilot]

It will be interesting to see if they will hire any DEFO on bases for the next couple of years or wait for the international cadets to upgrade to FOs and then offer bases to them. They will probably be willing to accepts quite different COS from what is offered today.

[donkey123]

Exactly

That is my point GTC58. The DESO programme will never fire up again when they have suitable applicants i.e ATPL with experience accepting this "Short Cadet course" or whatever it is. I mean you can't blame the company here really. If they are getting applicants with the traditional DESO requirements, applying for and accepting these Cadet terms (which is beyond me why) then surely that makes good commercial sense.

Its just a shame for all of us out there with aspirations to work for CX that are not prepared to "commit financial suicide" as another poster put it.

Donk

[RookieRookie]

Let's see!! A metro- bus driver in the State/Canada earns about 41500 USD per year. This equates to roughly 26000 HKD per month. The starting salary for S/O is 33000 HKD. I guess flying as an S/O is better than driving a bus.

[TopTup]

Rookie: better consider the cost of living..... $8500 HKD per month for a SHOEBOX to rent, etc, etc. Cost of living is a NET equation. Then the "experience" you get as SO: it counts for nothing as no airline recognises it. As an SO at CX you don't even have would could be called a "real endorsement". CX guys could elaborate further.

I have some colleagues quite senior at CX. They too cannot fathom why these guys are taking the CEP route with the experience they have. The extra training in time and hence money for ground school, sims, base and line training, etc, required to get a CEP pilot up and running as opposed to the DE path is great. But, not their job or ability to change things.

There are several (at least) pilots on the DESO file who interviewed some time ago with heavy jet time: A330, MD11, 777, as well as 73NG and A320 present experience. I have no idea if they are still waiting for the call. Back when they interviewed (2+ years ago?) the career package (training, lifestyle, salary, housing, general operations, and so on) was and still can be an attractive package.

Now would you, with that above mentioned experience, come to HK as SO with ZERO housing? Hell no. I suppose it will be seen whether CX honor the T & C's under which these guys (DESO's) interviewed for.

CX's management is hell bent on leading the race to the bottom. It appears that the present generations of CX pilots are being bred out. CX is fast becoming "just another airline". 3 years ago it was still held in very high regard as a career for a pilot. Can management still say that now? Do they care? They'll retire with the millions through cost cutting and the bonuses as such. And the union there? They seem to generate enough hot air to be the cause of global warming.

Welcome to "CX Express!" ??

[RookieRookie]

My previous reply was supposed to be a sarcasm. I guess it's really a bad one.=P

I agree the CEP package is an absolute rubbish. However, it works for Cathay for now because they've got enough applicants. People who had interviewed for DESO are now given the Cadet scheme as well.

[stillalbatross]

But at the end of the day you are employable with a widebody rating and time on type and CX training is held in high regard. For someone to sit in a widebody and preach to someone else the they should stay doing what they are doing when it isn't going to help their job chances anywhere in the future or to harp on about the good old days at CX when it's pretty obvious they aren't coming back...............is unbelievable.

CX may not be the best job out there but it will open a lot of other doors that a gazillion turboprop hours won't open.

So much BS on this forum from CX guys who have forgotten what it was like trying to get the f*ck out of GA.......................................

If it's whats on offer and it will help you get ahead then take it.

[RookieRookie]

Human beings are known to have very short memories. Some trainers will destroy a S/O confidence by bullying and intimidating him. But the fact is, these trainers(very rare in CX=) ), have forgotten that once upon a time, they were a very inexperience pilot before. They have been in this job for too long that they forget everybody has got to start off from somewhere.

I'm pretty sure most of the CEP, when they were told by CX that they have got the job , they were very excited. Only when they came back from Adelaide and have worked for a few years, they started to forget why they applied for this job in the first place.

I still think the CEP package is an absolute bollock. But if you have make up your mind and come to HK, you should not resent your decision. You know exactly what you will get, and what you won't. CX is a business, their first priority is saftey(advertised), profit(the real priority).

[betpump5]

they are discussing some education allowance for locally employed pilots

AQIS Bogui,

You are a couple of years late on this one. Educational allowance is already there for LEPs. The allowance is the same for any pilot. 90% off an ESF etc etc.

SmilingKnifed,

Basically, you are offered every benefit a DEFO would get (DESO non existant now) except for housing. But with your experience, I'm surprised you are even considering such a scheme.

Even the new 30 week "short course" wouldn't be for you. I must admit that I'm even surprised CX have invited you for an interview. I assume you are a SFO for Flybe and with your hours, you would be looking at a 50% cut in your wages if you came to Cathay. (The Q400 can't be that bad to land hence you fancy sitting in the back of a 777/A340 for 4 years eating sandwiches!!). The monthly wage is roughly HK$33000 or £2800 and I am sure you are on twice that.

I would say wait for DEFO (plus the benefits that go with it) but in all honesty, you'd probably be beaten at the post by other applicants with not only more hours but with Jet Time on type. Take a look at the Sandpit forum and you'll see the moment DEFO is opened again, you'll have a thousand Emirates pilots trying to apply as they want out.

In terms of upgrades, well rather than basing on hearsay, look at the facts. In a stable environment, you are looking at a max of 4 years. 3 is actually the norm. Even COS08 only shows wages upto a Year4 SO before the table starts on Year1 JFO. JFO upgrades have resumed this year and the SOs that will be upgraded (that also includes CPP cadets) will have been an SO for max 5 years (and this accounts for a very unfortunate few). The majority are actually closer to 4 years AND, don't forget, they were SOs during the worst financial crisis, plus the extension to the retirement age

So during this wave of optimism (cautious optimism I may add), I expect normal service to resume and SOs shouldn't be waiting for more than 4 years anymore.

Like I said before though, with your wealth of experience, there is no course on offer that you would fit into.

[SMOC]

>1500 hrs - Super short (cadet) course - 12 weeks.

<1500 hrs - Short (cadet) course - 30 weeks.

Little to no hours - Standard (cadet) course - 60 weeks.

Over 19,000 applicants. CX will have no problems, they will work out who's likely to leave during the interview process, and those who slip through will be less than 10% and CX will only up the T's & C's when >10% leave.

I don't think 10% has ever left CX

[Paperplanes89]

After a quick read-through I thought my question would be best placed in this thread. With the introduction of the 'short course' for qualified pilots, many with airline hrs, will this effectively bring about the end of the scheme for those with minimal/no hours? Do any complete rookies tend to get on the scheme in the first place that you know of?

Thanks,
Paperplanes89