CX SO Ugrades??

[MilPilot]

Are SOs currently being upgraded in CX or is there a complete standstill?

[Cpt. Underpants]

Has been slowed to a trickle for about two years but is picking up. Ave time now about 4 years as S/O.

Should change for the better early next year.

[MilPilot]

How does it work if CX needs 40 new FOs at a base, but only 20 SOs are allowed to work there? Can CX then hire DEFO or would they have to give all remaining SOs bypass pay if they do?

[Cpt. Underpants]

S/O's are not allowed permanent bases.

After upgrade to F/O, they are eligible, based on a strict set of criteria for the individual (recently amended) as well as service requirements from CX such as frequency, aircraft type etc.

You have to have legal right of abode in the area where you request your base, but you also have to be on the correct aircraft type and be senior enough.

[MilPilot]

That's what I meant to say - After they upgrade to FO.

So with that in mind - Isn't it likely that CX will have to hire DEFO to fill US bases next year?

Any idea how many American SO's are ready to upgrade to FO?

[Cpt. Underpants]

No idea at all. Lots of rumour mill numbers, but it's not healthy to base life decisions on an internet BB.

Pick a number from 40 to 100 new hires. Septics on a base? Maybe 25% of the total. Who knows?

[MilPilot]

... but it's not healthy to base life decisions on an internet BB....

I know - Tell me what else to do

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Sounds like things are pickup up for them. They are currently hiring FAs and may soon start on DEFOs. There are a BUNCH of DEFOs in a hiring pool.

cliff
LFW

[Eyes only]

Are SOs currently being upgraded in CX or is there a complete standstill?

The upgrades are underway again, from what I understand they are looking at around 26 courses (52 SO upgrades) this year. The SOs are being replaced with CEPs, not DEFOs.

S/O's are not allowed permanent bases

That is not correct, if an SO has been assessed, they can apply for a permanent base and take up that base when they have been upgraded.

Can CX then hire DEFO or would they have to give all remaining SOs bypass pay if they do?

CX can only hire DEFOs if there are no "suitable" SOs, regardless if they have slots available or not. CX is a Hong Kong based airline, that has some of its pilots on bases, not the other way around.

CX can crew its flights out of HKG, it does not "need" bases, just look at how quickly they closed the AMS base this year.

CX has "got around" this is the past by simply not hold assessment boards despite having a large number of SO meeting the requirements. The labour tribunal said this practice was to stop, every SO would need to be assessed before hiring a DEFO.

The last round of DEFOs earned the DEFOs a bad name amongst the trainers, they were less than impressed with the standard that a lot of the people had. Needless to say, a number of them no longer work at CX after being chopped.

[Cpt. Underpants]

they can apply for a permanent base and take up that base when they have been upgraded

...to F/O.

There are NO S/O's on permanent bases.

[Eyes only]

There are NO S/O's on permanent bases.

Thanks for taking the quote out of context from the rest of the sentence.

FO permanent base slots can be held by any FO, or SO that has been assessed. Unassessed SOs cannot bid for a slot.

You are confusing the difference between holding the permanent base slot, and the physical transfer to the permanent base.

FOs do not need to take up that slot immediately, e.g. they may need to do a type conversion. If CX let them take it up immediately CX would be up for all the hotel and allowances in HKG while they convert.

Likewise an SO would need to complete their upgrade before being allowed to transferred to the base slot they hold. Otherwise CX would be up for all the hotel and allowances from the date of the slot being awarded and them being transferred to the base.

Nothing stopping 20 base slots being held by 20 assessed SO, if they have the seniority and no FOs applied for them.

[MilPilot]

CX can crew its flights out of HKG, it does not "need" bases, just look at how quickly they closed the AMS base this year.

It was my understanding that those pilots are being placed at other bases in Europe. Is that not correct? Has any of those been forced to go to HK?

I would think that basings around the world would give added flexibility to some extend. If it wasn't because of flexibility and only in order to save money (expat benefits), couldn't they have settled for a lot fewer bases outside of HK?

The last round of DEFOs earned the DEFOs a bad name amongst the trainers, they were less than impressed with the standard that a lot of the people had. Needless to say, a number of them no longer work at CX after being chopped.

CX have been hiring DEFOs for a long time. Just because they had bad luck with the latest doesn't mean the concept is flawed. Maybe they just lowered the bar too much.
¨
Does flying as SO for 4-5 years make you a better pilot? Surely you will see a lot of stuff and and get a good feel for how CX likes to run things. But how about your own pilot skills and ability to make decisions?

Just a question:
If CX have open FO slots at a BASE and not enough FOs/upgradable SOs with legal right to work there - Does that give them the right to hire DEFO without asseessing SOs without right to work there?

[Cpt. Underpants]

There are NO S/O's on permanent bases.
Thanks for taking the quote out of context from the rest of the sentence.

It's true what they say about arguing on the internet. Being assessed suitable to upg to F/O does not mean that there are S/O's on a base. There are only CN's and F/O's on permanent bases, no assessed suitable S/O's. They still have to get through the upgrade process, apply for a base and be awarded a basing slot if one exists.

Dear G*d. I'm not one for "smileys", but this time I'll make an exception...

[Eyes only]

It was my understanding that those pilots are being placed at other bases in Europe. Is that not correct? Has any of those been forced to go to HK?

Within the "basing area" or HKG, they "created" additional slots on the "basing area" just for them.

I would think that basings around the world would give added flexibility to some extend.

It does, it also adds complexity, e.g. when you put a crew together, the flight time limitations can be interesting depending on which base and which time zone people are on.

CX have been hiring DEFOs for a long time. Just because they had bad luck with the latest doesn't mean the concept is flawed. Maybe they just lowered the bar too much.

True, however most of those were earlier DEFOs were employed on the classic freighters initially. The experience levels they wanted were higher than what they accepted for the DEFOs on the pax fleet.

Does flying as SO for 4-5 years make you a better pilot? Surely you will see a lot of stuff and and get a good feel for how CX likes to run things. But how about your own pilot skills and ability to make decisions?

I think CX has a much better idea of what an SO knows and is capable of before they start a JFO upgrade than what the know about a DEFO. Some DEFOs were employed without even a sim ride (e.g. ex-OASIS). SO have a sim rides every 8 weeks, have annual line checks, and have a technical interview before even being allowed to jump into a JFO position. By the time an SO gets a JFO course, they are a known quantity.

Keep in mind, the competitive level of experience was around 4-5000 hrs with turbine experience for a DESOs position, a lot of them have more jet experience and exposure to flying around Asia than DEFOs.
The JFO upgrade process is harder and longer than the DEFO process, many trainers said the 20 sectors was not enough for a DEFO.

If CX have open FO slots at a BASE and not enough FOs/upgradable SOs with legal right to work there - Does that give them the right to hire DEFO without asseessing SOs without right to work there?

CX it would seem thinks it has the right to do anything. By the contract, and how it has been interpreted by the Labour tribunal, no.

They still have to get through the upgrade process, apply for a base and be awarded a basing slot if one exists.

No, you can apply for, and hold a base slot as an assessed SO, you do not need to hold the rank of JFO or FO.

Likewise FOs can bid for, and hold CN slots on a base if they have the seniority, an FO from AKL did this for SYD CN position.

[MilPilot]

Keep in mind, the competitive level of experience was around 4-5000 hrs with turbine experience for a DESOs position, a lot of them have more jet experience and exposure to flying around Asia than DEFOs.

True, but that is just because the pilot mass available, had that kind of experience. It doesn't say anything about what is required to do the job. If it did, the Cadet scheme would be flawed big time.

A lot of the high timers that applied for DESO instead of DEFO must also have done so by choice. The requirements for applying for DEFO has never been as high as the hours you mention.

Never the less, I hope that CX offers upgrades/BPP to the SOs that require it.

[Eyes only]

If it did, the Cadet scheme would be flawed big time.

CEPs start off as CAT C SOs, they have to spend a longer period of time as an SO before they reach CAT A status, DESOs start off as CAT B. The shortest time frame a DESO has gone through to JFO would be around 12 months.

A lot of the high timers that applied for DESO instead of DEFO must also have done so by choice. The requirements for applying for DEFO has never been as high as the hours you mention.

Not at all. I do not know the exact crossover, if it was the end of 2005 or 2006, before that time, the only way to start on the PAX fleet was CEP or DESO, no DEFOs were available on the PAX fleet.

DEFOs were available on the freighter, but it was a trickle, maybe 2 a month. When they started recruiting DEFOs on the PAX fleet, it was a flood, around 300-400 DEFOs in the space of 2-3 years.

Never the less, I hope that CX offers upgrades/BPP to the SOs that require it.

Last ball park numbers I heard was that 200 captains are in the company beyond the age of 55, and behind the most senior SOs there are around 400 DEFOs. Last number I saw on the HKAOA website was that only 3 SO in total were on bypass. They do this by not holding assessment boards.

They are not only screwing over the SOs with bypass, they are also screwing over 100-150 FOs that should be getting bypass as well with the number of Captains that have extended beyond 55.

[MilPilot]

Quote:
If it did, the Cadet scheme would be flawed big time.
CEPs start off as CAT C SOs, they have to spend a longer period of time as an SO before they reach CAT A status, DESOs start off as CAT B. The shortest time frame a DESO has gone through to JFO would be around 12 months.

Still doesn't bring the cadets anywhere near the times you are talking about.

DEFOs were available on the freighter, but it was a trickle, maybe 2 a month. When they started recruiting DEFOs on the PAX fleet, it was a flood, around 300-400 DEFOs in the space of 2-3 years.

Not that it matters much, but I thought they hired a lot of DEFOs and then changed into the unified FO scheme. Didn't that first happen in 2008?

They do this by not holding assessment boards.

How do they avoid following the court ruling from last year? Wasn't it required after 18 months?

[NoseGear]

MilPilot

MP, are you with CX? Eyes only has given accurate answers to your questions. Im also with CX, and to answer a few more of your queries:
DESO vs CEP - 12 months is indeed a record, these days its over 4 years, thanks in part to the DEFOs on the pax fleet and RA65. The long time from start to upgrade negates the DESO and CEP differences in catagories. Eyes only is right when he says CEP start as Cat C, they do a year as Cat C and are assesed as suitable for Cat B then if they are up to the required standard. Same for the DESO who start as Cat B and go to Cat A. This is only part of the requirement to be upgraded. There is also the Upgrade Technical interview and the assesement board before being considered "suitable" for upgrade. The company has not been paying BPP to any but 3 SOs for over a year now, as the case is under an appeal, a judgement which is due, well, was due, a few months ago. The unified pay scale, in fact, any pay scale is now a complicated minefield, it depends on which basing company you may be with, where you are based, if you are based and when you started....clear as mud?!

Are you looking at applying to Cathay? As far as I know, there is no DEFO recruiting in the immediate future.

Nosey

[Eyes only]

Still doesn't bring the cadets anywhere near the times you are talking about.

True, however I would put any CAT A CEP up against a DEFO in the sim or with tech questions, and the CEP would come out on top. By the time they get to JFO they have had the exposure to the operations, the ops manual, ATC, probably in the region on 30-40 sim sessions using CX procedures.

Not that it matters much, but I thought they hired a lot of DEFOs and then changed into the unified FO scheme. Didn't that first happen in 2008?

No not at all, I cannot remember, but I think they started hiring DEFOs onto the PAX fleet directly in 2005 or 2006. A number of them were employed on COS99, however that is changing with the basing agreements where they are being "forced" over to COS08 if they have not already done so. Others opted to go to COS08 as it got them out of freighter flying, the choice of COS08 and SLS was voluntary compulsory last year.

How do they avoid following the court ruling from last year? Wasn't it required after 18 months?

The matter is still before the court.

Last I saw on the HKAOA website was the judge that heard the appeal had not started their deliberations, I think the appeal was heard late February this year.

The contracts says approximately 18 months, however CX barristers have stated in court that CX is never obliged to upgrade any SO or FO as it is not actually written in the contract.

This was only of the Labour tribunal rulings that CX was appealing, as the Labour tribunal basically said that was an implied term in the contract.

CX is of the view it can just not hold assessment boards for SOs, therefore none are ever found “suitable’, therefore hire as many DEFOs as they like. That is not the view the Labour tribunal had in their deliberations.

I was told by one of the SOs that CX did not hold any assessment boards between Late 2007/2008 until just recently. During that time "hundreds" of DEFOs were employed and "hundreds" of SOs that met all the requirements did not even get a shot at a FO course as CX artificially held them down by not assessing anybody.

[MilPilot]

I hear you both.

And the fact that the CEP comes out on top just proves my point that there is no reason why a DESO would need 4-5000 hours.

I just hear a lot that there are DESOs with more experience than DEFOs, and I can't really see why it matters that much. Besides, total time is an awfull measure of experience After people hit 2000+ PIC I don't think there is that much difference anymore.

Hopefully you will get BPP soon