Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lantau, Hong Kong
Age: 48
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Come on do you think people are blind? Are you from one of those aviation English organizations which give course on ICAO english? This looks like just another attack on Brian Slade and a piece of advert.
Anyway, i don't know if the ICAO test has really changed but i will take this guy's words with a pinch of salt. Mind you!
Anyway, i don't know if the ICAO test has really changed but i will take this guy's words with a pinch of salt. Mind you!
GregA380's post was accurate and genuinely useful. Thanks for someone telling it like it is.
So XLAN, do you seem to dislike Aviation English organisations? Do you ever think that these standards are for your benefit and that you should be incredibly grateful to people that dedicate their time, experience and unique skill set to actually help people?
Or are you scared that companies like Aviation English Asia, have a very accurate impression of the very real lack of language proficiency among airline pilots.
ICAO English standards were introduced primarily for flight safety not to make money from poor HK locals who want to be pilots but think that focusing on English just for the test will help them.
I received abuse from Slade for 4 years. Some students betrayed me after being pressured by Slade. Slade evidently hates me, because we make him look incompetent. He is. And dishonest too. But I'm not the real victim. The real victim is the public that fly on these flights under the belief that current CX/KA pilots have an operational level of English. Brian Slade's interpretation of the ICAO LPRs in Document 9835 is so absurd that any competent member of a rating organisation would cringe. Here's an example "there is no grammar in the icao test, you just need a good structure- like a beginning, middle and end".
Thanks for this great advice Brian. I'll tell that to your children when they take their HKCEE.
Slade deserves to be publicly criticised on these forums not only because he is a liar, a defamer, and a fraudster peddling irrelevant and useless english classes that are completely inadequate for the purpose sold. He is exploiting the ignorance of Hong Kong people and the Chinese culture of bribery. Brian Slade and Marcus DeSantis have created a culture of intimidation, where pilots are afraid of losing their job for fear of reporting what happens.
If you think that bribing an assessor is an appropriate behaviour for a pilot then just go and give your money to Brian Slade, James Strang and Marcus DeSantis because honestly you would never ever enjoy what we do on our courses.
Do you want to know something else? Professional Aviation English teachers don't hang out in Starbucks or baptist university. We spend 8-12 hours a day talking to real pilots, ATCs and people in the industry. We learn and study aviation constantly. We have to, because we are pilots affected by the lack of language proficiency in commercial aviation too. But despite the need it's hardly a goldmine - it's incredibly difficult work.
Some days we don't even have time for adverts. But airlines like our values, and they like our students so to be honest our students are the best advert we could ever hope for.
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: UK
Age: 31
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi. I'm a third year university student in the UK. Would it be too early to send out an application before I've actually graduated?
Also, how much do they expect you to know for the initial interview if you have had no aviation experience whatsoever?
Thanks
Also, how much do they expect you to know for the initial interview if you have had no aviation experience whatsoever?
Thanks
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 47
Posts: 1,007
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The real victim is the public that fly on these flights under the belief that current CX/KA pilots have an operational level of English.
After 5 years at CX not once have I thought another pilots English was even slightly unsatisfactory.
How many years have you been flying for CX?
If the answer is none, which I think is highly likely, you need to wind your neck in as obviously do not know what you are talking about making comments such as that.
If someones English is not satisfactory I highly doubt they will only fail because of the ICAO test. The interviews are all in English, if it is not up to standard this is where the biggest problem with language skill will be.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lantau, Hong Kong
Age: 48
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the answer is none, which I think is highly likely, you need to wind your neck in as obviously do not know what you are talking about making comments such as that.
1. The previous ICAO test did not test operational language and Slade created a washback effect wherein focus was on the test not on genuine language proficiency outside of the limit of the test. This incidentally had not changed in five years.
2. ICAO level 4 as a global standard is not exactly great. It is illegal for an airline to insist on a higher standard.
3. Culture
4. Attitude of language professionals that think they know everything.
5. Attitude of aviation professionals that think they know everything.
When you have first and second officers that can't distinguish "there are fumes in the cabin" from "there are films in the cabin", or can't distinguish common words you have a problem.
Interviews are sometimes a good tool for assessing language proficiency, and I do partially agree with you there, but there are some things that a need a language test with some scientific data behind it.
Also language proficiency can deteriorate - there are many reasons why. If your experience within CX has been different then good for you. I hope it stays that way, but please consider that there are language professionals that are trying to improve communications and changing the attitude of people that don't know what they don't know is our biggest battle.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: st helens
Age: 40
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey guys..
I submitted a application in June,but up to now not had any reply :-(
How long does it usually take for a response presuming you do if your unsuccessful???
I submitted a application in June,but up to now not had any reply :-(
How long does it usually take for a response presuming you do if your unsuccessful???
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oz
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just be patient. Most people wait 6-12 months for an interview.
HKID holders or people with considerably more experience can normally expect a reply sooner (but not always).
Also depends on which program you have applied to and where you put your preferred location to be.
HKID holders or people with considerably more experience can normally expect a reply sooner (but not always).
Also depends on which program you have applied to and where you put your preferred location to be.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lantau, Hong Kong
Age: 48
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
greatbattle
Ask to speak to Eric or Rachel. I will try to find a specific email and phone number for you. My understanding is that actual ratings were not given until you had received the offer and were about to go on your adventure weekend before Adelaide. I thought that you just got an invitation for an eye test or the next stage if you scored above ICAO level 4.
In my view everyone who got an ICAO level 1,2,3,4,5 or 6 in the previous test should consider that rating as worthless and not an accurate representation of their actual proficiency. If you get a 4 or above in the new test I believe that (based on recent data and those now involved) it is accurate. If you are ICAO level 4 in the new test, that probably means your English still needs work - it's the bare legal minimum to fly.
The ICAO level 4 standard was only set because a lot of old ex-military pilots in russia, china and south america had very little chance of reaching level 5 so the research group that initially advised ICAO settled on 4 as a reasonably achievable global level. Most of those guys already knew how to fly, they just needed to learn how to do it in English. For a Cathay cadet pilot you have to be capable of learning how to fly in English, plus a whole lot of other stuff that isn't in the ICAO descriptors.
If there is a delay in getting feedback, it's probably because of the massive overhaul needed of the system. They also need to retest current FO/SOs which is probably a higher priority than cadet icao tests. In the interim you can always message me, set up a consultation and I'll tell you informally if you are way below 4, borderline 3/4 or approaching 5 based on global benchmarks and a few things that you can or can't do.
Another point mentioning is that if you are level 3 that doesn't mean that you can't do more practice and then retry in 3-6 months. If that is the case you have more chance of getting a level 5 (well, you would if you are an AEA student). There is no pressure to do anything with a specific provider and you can take your time, prepare more and enjoy improving your English.
AEA students that spend 2-6 months doing classes maybe two or three times a week tend to do very well, and absorb a lot of Cathay character from our teachers.
Ask to speak to Eric or Rachel. I will try to find a specific email and phone number for you. My understanding is that actual ratings were not given until you had received the offer and were about to go on your adventure weekend before Adelaide. I thought that you just got an invitation for an eye test or the next stage if you scored above ICAO level 4.
In my view everyone who got an ICAO level 1,2,3,4,5 or 6 in the previous test should consider that rating as worthless and not an accurate representation of their actual proficiency. If you get a 4 or above in the new test I believe that (based on recent data and those now involved) it is accurate. If you are ICAO level 4 in the new test, that probably means your English still needs work - it's the bare legal minimum to fly.
The ICAO level 4 standard was only set because a lot of old ex-military pilots in russia, china and south america had very little chance of reaching level 5 so the research group that initially advised ICAO settled on 4 as a reasonably achievable global level. Most of those guys already knew how to fly, they just needed to learn how to do it in English. For a Cathay cadet pilot you have to be capable of learning how to fly in English, plus a whole lot of other stuff that isn't in the ICAO descriptors.
If there is a delay in getting feedback, it's probably because of the massive overhaul needed of the system. They also need to retest current FO/SOs which is probably a higher priority than cadet icao tests. In the interim you can always message me, set up a consultation and I'll tell you informally if you are way below 4, borderline 3/4 or approaching 5 based on global benchmarks and a few things that you can or can't do.
Another point mentioning is that if you are level 3 that doesn't mean that you can't do more practice and then retry in 3-6 months. If that is the case you have more chance of getting a level 5 (well, you would if you are an AEA student). There is no pressure to do anything with a specific provider and you can take your time, prepare more and enjoy improving your English.
AEA students that spend 2-6 months doing classes maybe two or three times a week tend to do very well, and absorb a lot of Cathay character from our teachers.
Last edited by Michael Egerton; 16th Aug 2012 at 18:42.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 966
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kawcraft
That has to be the most asinine question I've ever seen asked on any forum, ever.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't. Don't do anything in aviation. Stay away from airports, pilots, propellers, engines, metal, composites, air, wind tunnels, everything. Everything.
That has to be the most asinine question I've ever seen asked on any forum, ever.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't. Don't do anything in aviation. Stay away from airports, pilots, propellers, engines, metal, composites, air, wind tunnels, everything. Everything.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Barnet
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cx
Any news on cx ab initio interviews for non hkid holders who were in the interview process prior to the hkid ruling by the immigration but have been left in a waiting pool?
Any rumour of an appeal for such a case?
Any rumour of an appeal for such a case?
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 35
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the latest information I received, they split the initial test into two.
Initial A: Technical MC Questionair (45min)
Compass Aptitude Test (90min)
If you pass, you will be notified within 2 weeks time and be invited to initial B on another day.
Initial B: Reasoning Test
HR and Technical Interview
CPP Personality Test
Hope I can go through the initial A on Tuesday
I received their new arrangement just one week before the assessment
Initial A: Technical MC Questionair (45min)
Compass Aptitude Test (90min)
If you pass, you will be notified within 2 weeks time and be invited to initial B on another day.
Initial B: Reasoning Test
HR and Technical Interview
CPP Personality Test
Hope I can go through the initial A on Tuesday
I received their new arrangement just one week before the assessment
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: west sussex
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
with regards to the holding pool, plenty of people are being placed on CP courses, if you were at stage 1 or beyond before the legislation was implemented then you will be ok.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Midnight Cobra (WTF)
Trying to get around a system is the way they got themselves into such an enormous mess with basings.
HK Immigration has been pretty clear with them so I don't think what you are suggesting would be considered.
They have already tried it anyway, 0hrs - instructor in ADL then work with FTA for 3 years, then get f*(#$ over by CX when they change the contract on you.
Your plan would only work for Aus residents anyway as the Aus Gov is not going to give a working visa to someone with no qualifications for them to "work" for FTA.
So many holes in your suggestion.
Just remember also that you will never get an Australian base either, from the DFOs mouth.
Trying to get around a system is the way they got themselves into such an enormous mess with basings.
HK Immigration has been pretty clear with them so I don't think what you are suggesting would be considered.
They have already tried it anyway, 0hrs - instructor in ADL then work with FTA for 3 years, then get f*(#$ over by CX when they change the contract on you.
Your plan would only work for Aus residents anyway as the Aus Gov is not going to give a working visa to someone with no qualifications for them to "work" for FTA.
So many holes in your suggestion.
Just remember also that you will never get an Australian base either, from the DFOs mouth.