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Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

South Asia and Far East Wannabes A forum for those applying to Cathay Pacific, Dragonair or any other Hong Kong-based airline or operator. Use this area for both Direct Entry Pilot and Cadet-scheme queries.

Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

Old 27th Sep 2018, 04:13
  #7461 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Toulouse
Posts: 13
Hi Everyone,

I'm planning to apply by the end of this year. If anyone wants to form a study group, my details are listed below.

Phone: +852 67070475
Telegram: @airvib

Many thanks.
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Old 29th Sep 2018, 05:10
  #7462 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 9
Hey Buddy!

Originally Posted by Mikaekae View Post
Could anyone who has done stage 2 shed some light on the flight planning exercise?

I've read through quite a few forums and sources but none actually describes what exactly is included. thanks!
My WhatsApp is 51143537, message me, I belive I can help you with that
Khawaja is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2018, 18:49
  #7463 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 14
Anyone who applied around mid September heard back anything yet?
chermaine is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2018, 08:18
  #7464 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: hk
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by chermaine View Post
Anyone who applied around mid September heard back anything yet?
I applied on 18th Sep, haven’t heard back from cx yet.
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Old 3rd Oct 2018, 07:03
  #7465 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: hk
Posts: 9
Got 1A invitation on 23/10, anyone want to prepare together if your test is around the same time?

Cheers
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Old 3rd Oct 2018, 10:28
  #7466 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: hong kong
Posts: 3
i have just submitted application and now received further info

Please add me in the tg groupgroup: @angela521
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Old 3rd Oct 2018, 17:12
  #7467 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: hong kong
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by jacarandaa View Post
Got 1A invitation on 23/10, anyone want to prepare together if your test is around the same time?

Cheers
I am interested ,how to contact you? add me @angela521
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Old 7th Oct 2018, 07:17
  #7468 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 19
For those looking to apply to Cathay, I just want to show you the new contract that was just released and you will be joining on. It's called COS18 and is full of many clauses. In my opinion it is a severe degradation to previous contracts as your time as an SO is no longer based on seniority, but how many hours you work in a year.

The pay has been reduced to a lower salary with higher hourly wages so that in order to get the pay they quote, you need to make sure you work all of those hours. Any agreements the union comes to on behalf of the pilot body will not benefit those on COS18 unless they are specifically mentioned in writing. The company can employee direct entry captains if they want, which will slow your upgrade time as well.

There is a final clause that states Cathay can amend the rules anytime they want. I will just post here the summary so you may see for yourselves. I am not trying to stop you, but rather let you know what you are getting into ahead of time.

These are just some of the comparisons. Keep in mind all ab initio will have to pay for their training, will not get HKPA for the first three years (unless you join Cathay Dragon as they no longer will have Second Officers) and the company will dock you 16,000HKD per month until your training is paid off. training plus HKPA loss is $30,000HKD/mo less money.....just so you know up front.

Good luck to you. I have attached the actual contract that you will be signing if you do choose to join. You can take a look and make your decision. Please keep in mind, there are other airlines with cadet programs, and for those with hours, strongly consider looking around before making your final decision. Wish you all the best.


“....some SO mates of mine sent me this. They did some digging and this is doing the rounds amongst the SO ranks...


* PXing is now J class only for CN, FO & SO and potential downgrade to PEY is acceptable. (No longer offering F class if available for CN and FO. Our current contract they must fly you back home in no lower than businesss class, whereas the new contract you may operate a long haul flight, and then fly back in economy as a passenger.
* Have to earn sick days. 2 per month in 1st year then 4 per month in 2nd year onwards. 120 Days max can be accrued. (COS08 allows up to 126 days)
* If you are medical unable to fly, the company have the right to assign you full-time ground duties.
* Reserve payment does not occur until after 30 days free reserve in rolling 12 months. They would have to roster and NOT call you in 5 x (6 day reserve blocks) every 12 months for you to even have a sniff at the Reserve day payment. Highly unlikely……
* Positioning allowance (0.25 x Excess Block Hour Rate) will only be paid if Actual Block Hours + Positioning Hours is above the minimum monthly block hours.
* The annual package and payment calculations the company are using in their tables all include P fund contributions and averaging 74 block hours a month (777). Making it look a lot better than it really is.
* Cadets in FTA now have to supply their own uniform (white shirt and navy pants) for the duration of their training.
* A note was made that ANY officer can become a Check and Trainer now.
* Also make note that any one on COS18 can be sent to a Cathay Group airline at any time for training or resource planning requirements. I.e. Air Hong Kong or Cathay Dragon.
* Promotion from within a rank (i.e. SO1 to SO2, FO1 to FO2) is based on Actual Block Hours not anniversary year of service. So work more if you want to be promoted to next pay scale.
* Different Block Hour Rate (after the minimum of 51 block hours a month for 777) for different fleets. 777 being the lowest, then Airbus and 747 getting the most per hour pay after the minimum monthly block hours.
* Target annual block hours 777 = 880 per year (Min. Monthly Block Hours - 51.33)
* Target annual block hours Airbus = 840 per year (Min. Monthly Block Hours - 49)
* Target annual block hours 747 = 725 per year (Min. Monthly Block Hours - 42.29)
* No Overtime. Excess Block Hour Pay is only one figure and not a tiered system. So it will be the same per hour beginning from Minimum Monthly Hours (51hrs on 777) up to 100+ hrs per month is all paid at the same hourly rate (SO1 = $611 per hour)
* No longer a JFO pay or Rank.
* The company has the right to employ DEFO and DECN
* If you swap away duties and it results in you going below your minimum monthly block hours, your pay will be deducted accordingly.
* Annual productivity bonus is only paid if the above mentioned target block hours for each fleet is exceeded and then multiplied by 0.5 of the Block Hour Rate. So hypothetically if you are on 777 and maxed out at 900 hours. You would get 20 hrs extra calculated at your 0.5 Excess Block Hour Rate and that would be your annual bonus. e.g. SO1 (777) = 20 x $305= $6,100. CN1 (777) = 20 x $710 = $14,200.
* This Annual Productivity Bonus is not discretionary and MUST be paid at the end of every year.
* Although company can alter the Target Block Hours as they see fit without any consultation with HKAOA.
* Discretionary Year End Bonus (13th Month) is still available + the Annual Productivity Bonus.
* P fund reduced to 5%- 10% depending on joining rank. (if you are ab initio you get 5% if you are AE/TT you will get 10%. Currently we all get 15.5%)
* No mention of Bypass Pay in any Rank. - if someone upgrades before you, you get no compensation. Whereas now if they upgrade out of seniority, the person who was bypassed will be paid the next level. (FO on CAPT salary until he becomes a capt)
* Snapshot of COS18 left out the line (21.2. The Company will meet the cost of aircraft type endorsements.) under the training section. Could this mean type conversion will mean you are type frozen and bonded to the company for x amount of years to recuperate costs of conversion?
* Given that COS18 employees will effectively only get paid the same as COS08 employees, they will effectively become the ones to pickup the drip and drapes of the duties. COS08 employees will be rostered to fly their max 84 hours before they start rostering COS18 guys because if they don’t exceed there Minimum Monthly Block Hours then the company instantly saves money every month.
* Interesting to see how swaps will be managed also Will CC disapprove swaps now if you tried to swap a duty with a COS18 employee that would push them above their Minimum Monthly Block Hours and incur the company extra $$ whilst we still get paid effectively the same with less work due to our higher fixed based cost point?
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Old 7th Oct 2018, 07:19
  #7469 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 19
COS18 actual contract

Here are the actual contracts you will join under. If it is for you, then so be it, but I just want you to have a full look. Full transparency, so you are not blind sighted when you do join. I do urge you to look at a few companies not just cathay, but in the end, if cathay is where you want to be, then I can not argue. Good luck to you all
Attached Files
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Old 7th Oct 2018, 13:31
  #7470 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 6
Hi all,

Was just wondering: Is the SkyTest better or the Latest Pilot Job in order to prepare for Cathay?
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 00:19
  #7471 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by flyera359 View Post
In my opinion it is a severe degradation to previous contracts as your time as an SO is no longer based on seniority, but how many hours you work in a year.
Im not entirely sure if this is accurate. Based on my interpretation of the contract, your paygrade depends on the hours, but time as an SO is still seniority. Mind you, there used to be a pool of about 500 SOs, and that has increased to a target of about 800 if the rumors are true. So if you are at the bottom of the seniority list, then its hard to say if you will get upgraded by yr 5.

Becoming an SO at cx is also becoming less attractive, and if the airline has trouble hiring SOs, then it is also hard to say when that upgrade comes.


​​​​

Last edited by MrAndy; 8th Oct 2018 at 01:33. Reason: spelling
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 06:35
  #7472 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by MrAndy View Post
Im not entirely sure if this is accurate. Based on my interpretation of the contract, your paygrade depends on the hours, but time as an SO is still seniority. Mind you, there used to be a pool of about 500 SOs, and that has increased to a target of about 800 if the rumors are true. So if you are at the bottom of the seniority list, then its hard to say if you will get upgraded by yr 5.

Becoming an SO at cx is also becoming less attractive, and if the airline has trouble hiring SOs, then it is also hard to say when that upgrade comes.


​​​​
Hi MrAndy. Sadly its pretty accurate as explained to us. Your chance for an upgrade is based on seniority, only if you meet the "productivity requirements".

So when it is your turn to be selected, if you have not flown enough in cathay's eyes, they will bypass you and move to the next person. The current contract is not based on productivity.

Around two years ago, the SO upgrade time had come down to around 2 years and 3 months, which is very fast. If the company were to skip over you, they would have to pay you Junior First Officer pay, until it was your chance to upgrade.

COS18 has no bypass pay written in, so they can skip you with no recourse. Furthermore, the new contract allows Direct Entry FO's and Captains, so if they don't have enough SO's with enough time to upgrade, a direct entry can always fill the spot. Hope this makes sense. (For reference, the current contract does have Direct Entry FO's, and this is what has currently slowed the upgrade times for Second Officers)

I agree becoming an SO is becoming less attractive here, especially if you are ab initio. Hong Kong prices have skyrocketed, and the new contract deducts a lot of pay from you for the first 3 years.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 22:08
  #7473 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: GB
Posts: 35
Thanks for the info flyera359. Sad that it seems to have come to this.. Before at least Cathay was paying for your training so even though the salary wasn't great you'd still be better off than if you went self-funded, now this doesn't seem to be the case!

Just wanted to confirm that as an ab-initio pilot you would lose both HKPA and have to pay $16,000/mth for training costs? If this were the case then as a first year SO you would only take home $15,000/mth net, (from the handbook SO1 pay is ~$31,000/mth) surely Cathay can not expect that to be an attractive package for anyone as that won't even pay rent on even a 700 sq. ft. apartment... Also some people have been saying that they will only recoup 50% of training costs while you're saying it will be the whole thing. How much actually are the training costs in the end? I can't seem to find any reference to this in the documents you posted.
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Old 9th Oct 2018, 06:33
  #7474 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by flyera359 View Post
Hi MrAndy. Sadly its pretty accurate as explained to us. Your chance for an upgrade is based on seniority, only if you meet the "productivity requirements".
Flyera359, can you point to me which page of the contract or employee handbook this is referenced to? I was looking at the handbook, and it seems to state that you will get upgraded based on seniority and as long as you are qualified. If you are right, then that truly sucks because one has limited control over these productivity requirements.
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Old 9th Oct 2018, 13:49
  #7475 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 313
well the funny thing is you do have some control over your productivity and it is your sickness rate. The company has effectively found a way to punish you for going sick, so you can see the situation this will create. Guys will show up to work unfit for duty to ensure their productivity targets are met because otherwise they will be punished with loss of pay and career progression.
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Old 9th Oct 2018, 19:47
  #7476 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by MrAndy View Post
Flyera359, can you point to me which page of the contract or employee handbook this is referenced to? I was looking at the handbook, and it seems to state that you will get upgraded based on seniority and as long as you are qualified. If you are right, then that truly sucks because one has limited control over these productivity requirements.
Hi MrAndy. That's exactly what I was saying. You will be upgraded based on seniority, as long as you are qualified. The Handbook 2018 I posted, shows this in Appendix 8. To make the grade of First officer 1 you will need greater than 2000 hours but less than or equal to 3000 hours. For reference, many ab initio crew (crew with only their initial training in adelaide) do not reach 2000+ hours until around year 4+ in the company. Since these hours count as total time, if you are ab initio and someone junior to you joins with 1000 hours, they will essentially upgrade before you do, even though you are more senior. On COS18, you will not receive Bypass pay (which we do now), hence, you will only upgrade on seniority...as long as you are qualified...according to Cathay's new rules. Currently it is only by seniority, so regardless of time in the company, or hours accrued, when it is your time, and barring any issues in your training file, you are eligible for upgrade. You will notice that those hours change on the 747 fleet. So people on that fleet, junior to you, will become First officer, on that fleet, before you will (depending on which fleet you are assigned). Unfortunately as of late, even though it is in the current contract, Cathay will now allow people to upgrade on a different fleet unless the company sees fit. The 747 fleet, at the moment, is extremely angry about this. Many are trying to get off of the fleet, yet they keep offering cross fleet volunteers only from 777 to Airbus. 747 is essentially stuck with the worst rosters until "the company sees fit". You will notice that last phrase or similar to that many times in the new contract.
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Old 9th Oct 2018, 20:41
  #7477 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by Jetstream alpha View Post
Thanks for the info flyera359. Sad that it seems to have come to this.. Before at least Cathay was paying for your training so even though the salary wasn't great you'd still be better off than if you went self-funded, now this doesn't seem to be the case!

Just wanted to confirm that as an ab-initio pilot you would lose both HKPA and have to pay $16,000/mth for training costs? If this were the case then as a first year SO you would only take home $15,000/mth net, (from the handbook SO1 pay is ~$31,000/mth) surely Cathay can not expect that to be an attractive package for anyone as that won't even pay rent on even a 700 sq. ft. apartment... Also some people have been saying that they will only recoup 50% of training costs while you're saying it will be the whole thing. How much actually are the training costs in the end? I can't seem to find any reference to this in the documents you posted.
Hi Jetstream Alpha. Apologies so late on replying. I first must retract part of my statement as I now can't find where it says the HKPA will not be paid for the first 3 years in the contract. This info actually came from a letter sent by the managers to the cadets who are currently in Adelaide and who would have joined after Dec 1 (when the training completed). As is Cathay policy, even though you are under the company's control in Adelaide, you don't officially join and get a seniority number until your first day of duty in Cathay City. The management wrote a letter stating that the company would reverse the new Contract for all current cadets. The letter, written to ab initio courses, stated that they would receive the full HKPA and would be on COS08 or COS16 (our current conditions of service). Unfortunately I cannot share this letter with you, but I'm hoping someone here who has it would share it. I think the HKPA for new ab initio cadets is assumed, but after further review I don't see it in writing. I will do some digging and get back to you.

As for the training costs, I apologize if I made it seem as though it was all the training costs. It is actually only half and I should have made that clear in the last post. At a total training cost of around 1.2 mil HKD, half of that would be near $600,000HKD. However, there are two different contracts being presented, one for ab initio applicants and one for AE/TT applicants. For clarification, that is applicants with 250 hours and a commercial rating / applicants with a current ATPL and at least 1500 hours, respectively. On that contract, the target salary is $538,000 and is being presented to current applicants during their interviews, who fall into these categories. The difference in pay is around 16-17K/mo I believe. If you multiply both by 36 months (3 years) you get 576-612K HKD. Again, I have seen the documents, but cannot actually share them with you as I don't have the copies. I would hope that someone who has done an interview, and falls in these categories will share them online.

Further for everyone, I am seriously not trying to be a troll here who berates and belittles you for considering this opportunity. I know exactly how it feels to be looking for a job and see a carrier willing to pay you, while you fly in a wide body aircraft. Anyone from North America, Australia, and Europe knows that this life is not normal when starting your career. However, upon reading the contract again, I beg all of you to please look at the wording very carefully and compare them to other airlines, even if it is an airline you are not yet able to apply for. More than our current contract, so many areas end with as Cathay deems fit. For those of you who don't know this company, and I imagine that is a majority seeing as it is a cadet pilot forum, there has never been an increase to a contract when that wording existed. The company has always seen fit to decrease based on the current market. When times are good, your contract stays the same. When times are bad, the contract is threatened and a new contract is made for future employees. Such is the case with COS99 --> COS08 --> a temporary COS16 ---> and now COS18. The only difference is in COS18 most sections end with as the company sees fit / deems necessary/ under review from time to time. Negotiations are completely written out, and it states that such changes will be "binding on such officer".

Furthermore check out the Trade Union Agreement in section 18.
18. TRADE UNION AGREEMENT
The Company may, from time to time, enter into agreements with the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers’ Association or any other registered trade union representing the Company’s pilots. Such will not become part of the contractual terms of your employment unless otherwise expressly agreed with you in writing. The Company may, where appropriate, draw up policies to reflect its agreement with such trade union which will be notified to you.

Basically anything the union is currently fighting to preserve, will not affect anyone on COS18. Furthermore, any future negotiation outcomes will not be available to crew on COS18 unless specifically stated. To make it simple, unless stated by the company, the union can no longer fight for you. While there are many differing views on what a union can and cannot do, the fact that you have absolutely no representation unless the company sees fit should raise some concerns.

In the end, it is always your decision and I along with all other current members must respect that. I will say that this airline has sadly fallen from greatness, and is becoming a stepping stone airline. For those looking to join, get a wide body rating and the time, and get out, I think you are definitely headed in the right direction. I just hope and pray you know what you are signing up for in the interim.
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Old 10th Oct 2018, 04:59
  #7478 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 313
Originally Posted by divergent View Post
flyera359 - All ab initios joining after Dec 1 will not receive HKPA and will only get paid by the base salary which is 31,000ish HKD. This has been confirmed by the new recruitment manager.
Are you sure? Thought they would still get hkpa. If that is the case then I would recommend no one show up on their first day, that salary is just not even close to doable
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Old 10th Oct 2018, 07:08
  #7479 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: wherever I go, there I am.
Posts: 1,897
Have a close read of the new Redundancy Clause as well. It mentions that in the event of redundancy you may be DEMOTED to a lesser rank. So if you are a CAPT, you"re back to FO, and FO back to SO and of course the matching lower salary.

The COS08 and COS99 contracts allow no such demotions. You stay in your rank.



Dan Buster is online now  
Old 10th Oct 2018, 07:23
  #7480 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: wherever I go, there I am.
Posts: 1,897
At the end of the day you have to ask yourself how you will feel working a lot more, for less pay, less protections, less provident fund, less benefits, for doing the exact same job as your colleagues sitting beside you...for an ENTIRE CAREER.
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