Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme
cx_773er
There is nothing stopping someone from Europe where I acknowledge the cost of pilot training is prohibitively expensive, going to the USA i.e. Florida, and doing their training there. There is a whole industry there that has built their business around this type of training. With the low US$ this would make this path especially attractive to Europeans. Once the training is completed then taking that licence to Africa, South America or Asia and gaining some real world experience. I went to Papua New Guinea. Again one must think outside the box if one wants to succeed in this industry. Job’s very rarely come to those that aren’t prepared to take a gamble. Go where the jobs are.
There is nothing stopping someone from Europe where I acknowledge the cost of pilot training is prohibitively expensive, going to the USA i.e. Florida, and doing their training there. There is a whole industry there that has built their business around this type of training. With the low US$ this would make this path especially attractive to Europeans. Once the training is completed then taking that licence to Africa, South America or Asia and gaining some real world experience. I went to Papua New Guinea. Again one must think outside the box if one wants to succeed in this industry. Job’s very rarely come to those that aren’t prepared to take a gamble. Go where the jobs are.
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Just wondering why you used the "cash housing" compared to the "owner occupied housing"? would it be possable to compare the with the same housing allowance??
Thanks for doing all the work to show what the real cost is
Cheers
Samwheel
Thanks for doing all the work to show what the real cost is
Cheers
Samwheel
Samwheel
The whole point is that the iCads aren’t on the same housing assistance as DESO’s employed in 2008 and prior. I have been very generous and assumed that the iCad will use his cash allowance to pay off a mortgage which in reality is very doubtful. If they use it to just pay rent then they may as well be flushing the HK$720,000.00 down the toilet as it is only going into someone elses pocket but they are paying the tax on it. So as you can see I have been very conservative with my figures.
The whole point is that the iCads aren’t on the same housing assistance as DESO’s employed in 2008 and prior. I have been very generous and assumed that the iCad will use his cash allowance to pay off a mortgage which in reality is very doubtful. If they use it to just pay rent then they may as well be flushing the HK$720,000.00 down the toilet as it is only going into someone elses pocket but they are paying the tax on it. So as you can see I have been very conservative with my figures.
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Those at help out in recruitment basically fall into two catagories 1) self serving who believe that the company will look favourably upon them for future management rolls. 2) those on long term sick leave that are able and assigned to do it.
The pilots roll in the interview process is purely to ask technical questions, if they decided to start lecturing the candidate on the real iCad's situation they would be hauled out by the HR guys and wouldn't be doing interviews again.
Therefore looking at the big picture, 404 is doing exactly what you are asking for, those in CX warning iCads on their impending doom.
The pilots roll in the interview process is purely to ask technical questions, if they decided to start lecturing the candidate on the real iCad's situation they would be hauled out by the HR guys and wouldn't be doing interviews again.
Therefore looking at the big picture, 404 is doing exactly what you are asking for, those in CX warning iCads on their impending doom.
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At least they are giving cadets some sort of payment towards housing. In America, not only will you not get any compensation for housing, they will pay you less than a McDonalds employee to fly 5 legs a day...take what you can and be thankful.
This job is not for people who have a family to feed, this is for a young single guy with no commitments. Sure its going to be tough for the first couple years, I understand Hong Kong is expensive but you have to find a way to get by, get a roommate (maybe another cadet), take public transportation, maybe dont go out as much. This is a great opportunity people, you have to always look down the road. You can take out a loan or work 5 days a week and pay for your flight training, sure, I did it...but does that mean you're going to get hired by an airline now that you have a commercial license? By getting on with CX, you are securing yourself a future. Tons and tons of american pilots would give their left nut to leave their job in the US to come fly for Cathay..this is a great job!...Many airlines now days are cutting back by furloughing, pay cuts, termination of pension's and so on. Why not work for an airline that has never furloughed in almost over 70 years?
Lets say this, you have 250 hours, a commercial, instrument rating and a multi engine rating, now what? Who in the hell is going to put you anywhere near a jet? I'll tell you who, no one! Not only did it take you a couple years of training to get your ratings, you gotta spend another couple years building flight time now (not to mention all the money you have spent). Last I checked the requirement for a DESO at CX is "A minimum of 1000 hours fixed wing". That is a lot of flight time to build. Remember, the golden rule about a successful career at an airline is "Seniority", Seniority is everything in an airline. You want to get in sooner than later. I personally would suggest to anyone who wants a career in the aviation industry and is willing to live in hong kong to apply for this position.
Worst case senerio, you leave Cathay after six years and start over somewhere else....believe me, any airline that see's you have six years of 777, A330/340, 747 cruise pilot time, would love to hire...dont think just because your not doing takeoff's and landings that your time in the plane isnt valuable.
If your really worried about the money you will loose if you are a Cadet or a DESO, do yourself a favor, get your ratings and flight time, apply and just maybe you will get hired...
Thats just my 2 cents, you can either take it or leave it...
Cheers
Source: Plenty of family in the aviation industry, and in training departments at major us airlines.
This job is not for people who have a family to feed, this is for a young single guy with no commitments. Sure its going to be tough for the first couple years, I understand Hong Kong is expensive but you have to find a way to get by, get a roommate (maybe another cadet), take public transportation, maybe dont go out as much. This is a great opportunity people, you have to always look down the road. You can take out a loan or work 5 days a week and pay for your flight training, sure, I did it...but does that mean you're going to get hired by an airline now that you have a commercial license? By getting on with CX, you are securing yourself a future. Tons and tons of american pilots would give their left nut to leave their job in the US to come fly for Cathay..this is a great job!...Many airlines now days are cutting back by furloughing, pay cuts, termination of pension's and so on. Why not work for an airline that has never furloughed in almost over 70 years?
Lets say this, you have 250 hours, a commercial, instrument rating and a multi engine rating, now what? Who in the hell is going to put you anywhere near a jet? I'll tell you who, no one! Not only did it take you a couple years of training to get your ratings, you gotta spend another couple years building flight time now (not to mention all the money you have spent). Last I checked the requirement for a DESO at CX is "A minimum of 1000 hours fixed wing". That is a lot of flight time to build. Remember, the golden rule about a successful career at an airline is "Seniority", Seniority is everything in an airline. You want to get in sooner than later. I personally would suggest to anyone who wants a career in the aviation industry and is willing to live in hong kong to apply for this position.
Worst case senerio, you leave Cathay after six years and start over somewhere else....believe me, any airline that see's you have six years of 777, A330/340, 747 cruise pilot time, would love to hire...dont think just because your not doing takeoff's and landings that your time in the plane isnt valuable.
If your really worried about the money you will loose if you are a Cadet or a DESO, do yourself a favor, get your ratings and flight time, apply and just maybe you will get hired...
Thats just my 2 cents, you can either take it or leave it...
Cheers
Source: Plenty of family in the aviation industry, and in training departments at major us airlines.
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VarigMD11
As we discussed earlier (pilot A and pilot B) if you are planning to get into the cadet program don't bother getting "experience" as the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
sure you may have good flying skills, good decision making skills etc
but you will be forever looked down upon for accepting the low T&C
you will have ZERO benefits compared to some ab initio (provided you start as SO at same time). even worse while you're out there "gaining experience", if some ab initio gets to S/O first, he/she will progress far ahead of you in seniority.
i can understand why its important to have GA experience but if there are captains in CX who were ab initio cadets, then surely this cadet program must provide sufficient training to become a decent captain.
thats just my 2 cents
sure you may have good flying skills, good decision making skills etc
but you will be forever looked down upon for accepting the low T&C
you will have ZERO benefits compared to some ab initio (provided you start as SO at same time). even worse while you're out there "gaining experience", if some ab initio gets to S/O first, he/she will progress far ahead of you in seniority.
i can understand why its important to have GA experience but if there are captains in CX who were ab initio cadets, then surely this cadet program must provide sufficient training to become a decent captain.
thats just my 2 cents
cx_773er,
Cathay provides a P2X endorsement when you qualify as an S/O. This is a simulator only rating and qualifies you to operate as Cruise pilot only.
If you have a look at the minimum requirements for entry into Emirates , Qatar and Etihad, you will see that S/O time is not highly regarded.
From Emirates website mins include :A minimum of 4000 hours total flying time (may include 25% P3 or FEO time to a max of 500 hr).
If Cathay is able to schedule Longhaul flying with 1x capt, 1x f/o, and 2x s/o, which may be the case shortly. Upgrade time could exceed 6 years ( already been stated above). If this happens then the time to reach the minimum requirements for the Middle East carriers is probably 10 years. To be competetive , probably 12-14 years.
Do you wish to waste 10 years of your life on a poor contract with Cathay, only to start at the bottom of another carrier? It does not make much sense.
To remain at Cathay for your entire carrier will not give you a comfortable lifestyle until the 15 to 20 year mark when you eventually make Captain ( if you pass the upgrade).
In the meantime unless you remain celibate until 45 or 50 years old you will probably have to factor in a wife and family. Are they going to be happy to share an apartment wil other guys. How about living in a 600 sq ft apartment for the next 15-20 years.
If you use a bit of common sense you will see it is not a logical career move.
Cathay provides a P2X endorsement when you qualify as an S/O. This is a simulator only rating and qualifies you to operate as Cruise pilot only.
If you have a look at the minimum requirements for entry into Emirates , Qatar and Etihad, you will see that S/O time is not highly regarded.
From Emirates website mins include :A minimum of 4000 hours total flying time (may include 25% P3 or FEO time to a max of 500 hr).
If Cathay is able to schedule Longhaul flying with 1x capt, 1x f/o, and 2x s/o, which may be the case shortly. Upgrade time could exceed 6 years ( already been stated above). If this happens then the time to reach the minimum requirements for the Middle East carriers is probably 10 years. To be competetive , probably 12-14 years.
Do you wish to waste 10 years of your life on a poor contract with Cathay, only to start at the bottom of another carrier? It does not make much sense.
To remain at Cathay for your entire carrier will not give you a comfortable lifestyle until the 15 to 20 year mark when you eventually make Captain ( if you pass the upgrade).
In the meantime unless you remain celibate until 45 or 50 years old you will probably have to factor in a wife and family. Are they going to be happy to share an apartment wil other guys. How about living in a 600 sq ft apartment for the next 15-20 years.
If you use a bit of common sense you will see it is not a logical career move.
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Although few people would really know when/if this would ever happen, does anyone had an educated guess as to the likelihood of DESO of even DEFO ever returning to CX?
How successful has the Cadet program been, before international and inclusive of, at producing good pilots when upgrade time comes? I realize these questions may have no answer, but there must be people out there reading this who are in the 'know' regarding the relative success of the program from a piloting/upgrade standpoint?
How successful has the Cadet program been, before international and inclusive of, at producing good pilots when upgrade time comes? I realize these questions may have no answer, but there must be people out there reading this who are in the 'know' regarding the relative success of the program from a piloting/upgrade standpoint?
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cx_773er
You are sort of correct but missing the bigger picture.
If you all joined as Ab-initio there are no advantages. The only advantages are for CX who've successfully reduced the conditions of new joiners.
By not accepting, CX will have to raise it.
The more of you that 'get to S/O first' ensures the deal will never be improved. The guy who goes out to get real flying experience, can see that this deal is no good and wants something better. That's why relatively nobody has accepted it.
but you will be forever looked down upon for accepting the low T&C
you will have ZERO benefits compared to some ab initio (provided you start as SO at same time). even worse while you're out there "gaining experience", if some ab initio gets to S/O first, he/she will progress far ahead of you in seniority.
you will have ZERO benefits compared to some ab initio (provided you start as SO at same time). even worse while you're out there "gaining experience", if some ab initio gets to S/O first, he/she will progress far ahead of you in seniority.
If you all joined as Ab-initio there are no advantages. The only advantages are for CX who've successfully reduced the conditions of new joiners.
By not accepting, CX will have to raise it.
The more of you that 'get to S/O first' ensures the deal will never be improved. The guy who goes out to get real flying experience, can see that this deal is no good and wants something better. That's why relatively nobody has accepted it.
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EM777
The point that many are trying to make here is that these are "golden handcuffs". In case you're not a native English speaker, here's a definition:
Don't take this dumb offer. You will forever regret it. It has to be the most expensive "free" training ever offered. If you're in doubt, solicit the services of a financial advisor to look it over on your behalf. If he/she tells you to go for it...fine. Then fire him.
The point that many are trying to make here is that these are "golden handcuffs". In case you're not a native English speaker, here's a definition:
golden handcuffs
pl.n. Slang (used with a sing. verb)
A lucrative incentive to an executive intended to discourage resignation or ensure long-term cooperation after departure.
pl.n. Slang (used with a sing. verb)
A lucrative incentive to an executive intended to discourage resignation or ensure long-term cooperation after departure.
Last edited by Cpt. Underpants; 13th Apr 2011 at 10:47.
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ATPL Requirements.
HK
http://www.cad.gov.hk/application/Up...m%20ATPL-A.pdf
Convert to JAA
JAA Conversion - Airline Pilot Central Forums
Convert to Aust.
HTTP://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...guidelines.pdf
You may have to stay at CX a little longer just to be able to get the hours to convert your HK ATPL. A lot of your P2X hours will be worth little to nothing in the eyes of other authorities.
http://www.cad.gov.hk/application/Up...m%20ATPL-A.pdf
Convert to JAA
JAA Conversion - Airline Pilot Central Forums
Convert to Aust.
HTTP://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...guidelines.pdf
You may have to stay at CX a little longer just to be able to get the hours to convert your HK ATPL. A lot of your P2X hours will be worth little to nothing in the eyes of other authorities.
Last edited by SMOC; 13th Apr 2011 at 07:03.
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Biggest Wannabe
Hey guys!
I've read the thread from page one till this page and it is VERY interesting to say the least. But my question is (for those willing to help out): although Cathay says we do not need a degree to apply; would it matter if we do or don't? And being a someone who has next to no flying hours (15 hours cessna, 2.5 Alt Sim), a citizen of HK but living in Vancouver B.C... is it a wise idea to apply for Cathay pacific to the cadet program? Thank you for all those who reply
Fong3r
I've read the thread from page one till this page and it is VERY interesting to say the least. But my question is (for those willing to help out): although Cathay says we do not need a degree to apply; would it matter if we do or don't? And being a someone who has next to no flying hours (15 hours cessna, 2.5 Alt Sim), a citizen of HK but living in Vancouver B.C... is it a wise idea to apply for Cathay pacific to the cadet program? Thank you for all those who reply
Fong3r
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Hey Fong3r, i guess if you meet the minimum education requirements then i see no problem. Having a degree may help, how much? I guess it depends on what other things you can bring to the table, e.g. flying hours, age, other relevant experience.
As for you being a HK citizen, i think that is a big plus. And although you have only 15 hours, its better than alot of people who have no hours what so ever. More over, i'm sure you're building hours to either a PPL or CPL, so if you do apply and manage to get to an interview, you would have a whole heap more hours by then!
Since you mentioned you've read the thread, the last 20-40 pages gives a pretty good oversight of the current conditions, and the biggest thing is housing. I think for people who already have a house/unit in HK, then the program is very attractive and a great opportunity. The real problem seems to be for non HK citizens and residents, who may find the exorbient HK housing prices a bit steeper than what they're probably use to seeing.
IMO, i think you should apply, you have some basic things that are more advantageous than many applicants
As for you being a HK citizen, i think that is a big plus. And although you have only 15 hours, its better than alot of people who have no hours what so ever. More over, i'm sure you're building hours to either a PPL or CPL, so if you do apply and manage to get to an interview, you would have a whole heap more hours by then!
Since you mentioned you've read the thread, the last 20-40 pages gives a pretty good oversight of the current conditions, and the biggest thing is housing. I think for people who already have a house/unit in HK, then the program is very attractive and a great opportunity. The real problem seems to be for non HK citizens and residents, who may find the exorbient HK housing prices a bit steeper than what they're probably use to seeing.
IMO, i think you should apply, you have some basic things that are more advantageous than many applicants
Last edited by orangeboy; 16th Apr 2011 at 12:24.
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To all the guys saying "I'll do my 6-8 years and then move on". Think about this. If you accept the job, you are lowering the industry standard, where are you going to move to? CX gets guys in the door for a package which is quite frankly embarrassing, next EK say well if we offer these guys 2c more they come to us, where are you going to go and recoup the ammout you have lost over those years?
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Are you guys serious?
Of course I can understand this stance but what about the guys actually creating this mess? Those aren't the Ab-Initio's! Those are the guys allready flying! If the contracted pilots would actually do something then that would really make an impact. Now it only affects me.
So, very noble and so forth to say no. But what if you just want to fly and take the opportunity?
Then you are shun forever by the guys already living their dream.
So; flame me - but there are two sides to this story.
It's not like you are actually paying for your hours, and that's what currently happens. Compared to many offers CX's offer is still incredible.
What I am more interested about is the actual flying roster.
Either way: my point is that the pilots actually flying can make a much bigger impact than the ones dreaming about becomming one.
Of course I can understand this stance but what about the guys actually creating this mess? Those aren't the Ab-Initio's! Those are the guys allready flying! If the contracted pilots would actually do something then that would really make an impact. Now it only affects me.
So, very noble and so forth to say no. But what if you just want to fly and take the opportunity?
Then you are shun forever by the guys already living their dream.
So; flame me - but there are two sides to this story.
It's not like you are actually paying for your hours, and that's what currently happens. Compared to many offers CX's offer is still incredible.
What I am more interested about is the actual flying roster.
Either way: my point is that the pilots actually flying can make a much bigger impact than the ones dreaming about becomming one.
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Quote:
my point is that the pilots actually flying can make a much bigger impact than the ones dreaming about becomming one.
just out of curiosity, how does CX handle pilot strikes?. say a bunch of S/Os on the iCad T&Cs didn't show up to work or something, what would that do?
and i just want to know what pushed CX to introduce the 10k/mth allowance?
my point is that the pilots actually flying can make a much bigger impact than the ones dreaming about becomming one.
just out of curiosity, how does CX handle pilot strikes?. say a bunch of S/Os on the iCad T&Cs didn't show up to work or something, what would that do?
and i just want to know what pushed CX to introduce the 10k/mth allowance?
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did this actually happen??
read this article. its a couple months old but im just curious if it actually is true?
Cathay Pacific pilots were to bid on them by raising salaries to 12 percent after the company’s pilots are threatening not to work on Christmas day. And after that happened, the thing gets clear and benefits for the pilots themselves. They finally got the higher salary than before. Quoted from the Straits Times, Sunday (01/02/2011), within the past six weeks, 1,800 members of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association called for a number of agreements, including salary increases which increased by more than 30 percent.
“We believe that this package is very good and we hope that our pilots will see it all balanced and there are still many problems to be discussed with representatives of the pilot as long as we are negotiating with them,” said a spokesman for Cathay Pacific anonymity.
Flag carrier based in Hong Kong will give an award to the pilot with up to nine percent wage increase and subsequently by two-three per cent in May 2012. Related to this issue, the union could not be reached for comment, but chairman Peter Vinna just had explained in the letter that this is a good start to fix the salary level and form the foundation on which to base further than before.
Cathay Pacific pilots were to bid on them by raising salaries to 12 percent after the company’s pilots are threatening not to work on Christmas day. And after that happened, the thing gets clear and benefits for the pilots themselves. They finally got the higher salary than before. Quoted from the Straits Times, Sunday (01/02/2011), within the past six weeks, 1,800 members of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association called for a number of agreements, including salary increases which increased by more than 30 percent.
“We believe that this package is very good and we hope that our pilots will see it all balanced and there are still many problems to be discussed with representatives of the pilot as long as we are negotiating with them,” said a spokesman for Cathay Pacific anonymity.
Flag carrier based in Hong Kong will give an award to the pilot with up to nine percent wage increase and subsequently by two-three per cent in May 2012. Related to this issue, the union could not be reached for comment, but chairman Peter Vinna just had explained in the letter that this is a good start to fix the salary level and form the foundation on which to base further than before.