CX/FTA Instructor Secondment
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Canada
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even in canada, some instructors are pretty young,
like my college, there are couple guys aged about 19to20.
they are still capable to teach.
i think, my personal opinion.
even when being hired, u won't be teaching the cadets.
u will probably be teaching the locals at the beginning and then jump further.
like my college, there are couple guys aged about 19to20.
they are still capable to teach.
i think, my personal opinion.
even when being hired, u won't be teaching the cadets.
u will probably be teaching the locals at the beginning and then jump further.
at the moment doesn't look like they have sorted out the issues with DIMIA yet...
and i would really be surprised they would hire hk local for this program as if they haven't pissed off the cadets grads enuf when they brought this out....
PS if u look further on the deal, the graduate will be working in AFTC doing private students before joining FTA teaching cadets
and i would really be surprised they would hire hk local for this program as if they haven't pissed off the cadets grads enuf when they brought this out....
PS if u look further on the deal, the graduate will be working in AFTC doing private students before joining FTA teaching cadets
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Another thing to point out, they could just mess with you and not give you a recommendation for class 2. Then either you stick with it until they do give you a recommendation, or you leave.
And odds are you wouldn't want to leave if you had to pay back a lot of the training to them, so you're on puppet strings until they want to recommend you. (might happen if they're still short on instructors)
And odds are you wouldn't want to leave if you had to pay back a lot of the training to them, so you're on puppet strings until they want to recommend you. (might happen if they're still short on instructors)
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Basically you're going to be an indentured slave for about 5 years.
And they'll be holding the Cathay carrot over your head the entire time.
They'll be the like the woman who controls the supply of sex, and you're the horny guy. Total power imbalance.
And they'll be holding the Cathay carrot over your head the entire time.
They'll be the like the woman who controls the supply of sex, and you're the horny guy. Total power imbalance.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Hong Kong
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But if you have no other job, what's wrong with this one until a better one comes along?
You could just as easily be a slave to a dodgy GA operator and wait a hell of a lot more years to get an airline job...maybe even never.
Sounds a lot like sour grapes. I'm sure if this had been around when you started out you would have jumped at the chance.
You could just as easily be a slave to a dodgy GA operator and wait a hell of a lot more years to get an airline job...maybe even never.
Sounds a lot like sour grapes. I'm sure if this had been around when you started out you would have jumped at the chance.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Oh, out of curiosity, when you people say age doesn't matter as an instructor. Be honest, when you're paying $200 an hour to fly a C172 and $50 of that is going to an instructor, would you rather pay $50 for a Class 1 or a Class 3? (or even a lower class depending on which country)
I'd rather pay my $50 to the instructor who knows the best way to teach, doesn't miss the occasional field for PFLs, doesn't attempt to spin an aircraft with power off the 'wrong way', has experience in teaching, knows how to get a point across in multiple ways incase you have problems understanding it one way, gives you control long enough for you to fix your errors instead of them taking over early.
I've seen way too many instructors with students doing circuits, the student is off the centerline and instead of having the student fix it, the instructor just takes over. I've also seen instructors attempt to spin a C172 without power to the left (i think left is the harder way..its been awhile) multiple times ending up wasting 30 min of a student's time.
When you pay someone $50 an hour, you pay for the best, not the ones who just want to be up there longer to build up their hours. (Yes, that's what all young instructors want to do)
I'd rather pay my $50 to the instructor who knows the best way to teach, doesn't miss the occasional field for PFLs, doesn't attempt to spin an aircraft with power off the 'wrong way', has experience in teaching, knows how to get a point across in multiple ways incase you have problems understanding it one way, gives you control long enough for you to fix your errors instead of them taking over early.
I've seen way too many instructors with students doing circuits, the student is off the centerline and instead of having the student fix it, the instructor just takes over. I've also seen instructors attempt to spin a C172 without power to the left (i think left is the harder way..its been awhile) multiple times ending up wasting 30 min of a student's time.
When you pay someone $50 an hour, you pay for the best, not the ones who just want to be up there longer to build up their hours. (Yes, that's what all young instructors want to do)
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Hong Kong
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Midgetboy,
FTA is a little different in it's approach. At most GA flying schools (Where I started out), the emphasis was on letting the student fly as much as possible. This meant that the method of teaching was rather more "Direct-Monitor". This invariably leads to more directing and monitoring. The reason being that the student feels he/she is getting more for their money because they are getting more time at the controls.
In Adelaide at FTA, the students are not "off the street" as such, and are cadets from various airlines. There are the odd "private" student who joins one of the main courses though. The teaching mentality is different. You are able to spend more time "DEMO-Direct-Monitor" and so as an instructor, you get more hands on.
This may not matter to all, but I found my personal flying skill improved considerably simply because I was Demo-ing more. You might end up doing hours of circuits, but as you move up the ranks you will also do 2-3 instrument ratings at a time. You get quite good at hand flying an NDB approach whilst failing the inboard engine.
The point to all of this and to respond to your post, is that even though the instructor is younger than you, this in no way means the level of instruction is inferior. At FTA they do a LOT of flying and they demo everything. This can't be said for most GA flying schools.
FTA is a little different in it's approach. At most GA flying schools (Where I started out), the emphasis was on letting the student fly as much as possible. This meant that the method of teaching was rather more "Direct-Monitor". This invariably leads to more directing and monitoring. The reason being that the student feels he/she is getting more for their money because they are getting more time at the controls.
In Adelaide at FTA, the students are not "off the street" as such, and are cadets from various airlines. There are the odd "private" student who joins one of the main courses though. The teaching mentality is different. You are able to spend more time "DEMO-Direct-Monitor" and so as an instructor, you get more hands on.
This may not matter to all, but I found my personal flying skill improved considerably simply because I was Demo-ing more. You might end up doing hours of circuits, but as you move up the ranks you will also do 2-3 instrument ratings at a time. You get quite good at hand flying an NDB approach whilst failing the inboard engine.
The point to all of this and to respond to your post, is that even though the instructor is younger than you, this in no way means the level of instruction is inferior. At FTA they do a LOT of flying and they demo everything. This can't be said for most GA flying schools.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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But if you have no other job, what's wrong with this one until a better one comes along?
You could just as easily be a slave to a dodgy GA operator and wait a hell of a lot more years to get an airline job...maybe even never.
In 5 years Cathay might not even be around. Who knows.
Who is to say Cathay's staffing circumstances won't change? As Rummie would day, there are a lot of known unknowns and unknown unknowns involved when you're dealing with time scales such as this...
Sorry if it sounds like sour grapes, but it's more like cynicism. Things rarely work out as you expect them...
Join Date: Oct 2007
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@Waldo, ofcourse FTA would be different, I was just pointing out how hard it might be sometimes for a young flight instructor to work at other flight schools, especially when the student is paying themself and they won't just fly with any instructor. For obvious reasons, cadets at Cx won't complain who they're flying with, they can't.
It's just that, I work at a flight school (not as an instructor) and I've noticed so many horrible instructors. I know Cx and FTA won't hire horrible instructors for this program, but like I said, the rest of the world isn't like that. When you see instructors who get afraid of coming within a mile horizontally from a mountain in a C172, you know it's your time to jump out of the plane with a parachute.
It's just that, I work at a flight school (not as an instructor) and I've noticed so many horrible instructors. I know Cx and FTA won't hire horrible instructors for this program, but like I said, the rest of the world isn't like that. When you see instructors who get afraid of coming within a mile horizontally from a mountain in a C172, you know it's your time to jump out of the plane with a parachute.
Midget,
who told you cathay cadets aren't allowed to complain who they're flying with??? there's something call personality clash and sometimes it just doesn't work out with one specific instructor, and for the benefit of the cadet, the school will make such arrangement to find another instructor for him/her to get the best of out the cadet.... and there were instructors who had some major issues with instructing cadets properly at FTA too....
who told you cathay cadets aren't allowed to complain who they're flying with??? there's something call personality clash and sometimes it just doesn't work out with one specific instructor, and for the benefit of the cadet, the school will make such arrangement to find another instructor for him/her to get the best of out the cadet.... and there were instructors who had some major issues with instructing cadets properly at FTA too....
Just a side note, after 5 years at FTA I would expect that with the hours they fly annually, even without this program you would be eligible for an SO CX position anyway. The only difference I can see is that you have already done your interview before you start, so you know the job is yours once your time is up. And either way you'd be an expat, so by definition if you're an expat you'd certainly expect to get expat benefits...
Again, as far as I see, the only difference is that you've done the interview, which by the looks of it you MUST PASS before being hired. Then you do the time working at FTA, and when the times is up, doing the max hours a year they seem to expect, youd certainly be more than eligible to apply. But, from day one you know the job is yours unless CX go bust. Don't quite understand how that annoys cadets, but anyway.
Again, as far as I see, the only difference is that you've done the interview, which by the looks of it you MUST PASS before being hired. Then you do the time working at FTA, and when the times is up, doing the max hours a year they seem to expect, youd certainly be more than eligible to apply. But, from day one you know the job is yours unless CX go bust. Don't quite understand how that annoys cadets, but anyway.
Join Date: Jul 2005
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My question:
When they claim "secondment" back to FTA... does that imply that you are still employed by Cathay and paid by Cathay? Or are you somehow "released" to FTA and employed (and therefore paid) by them? What I'm getting at is who's paying the bills here? Furthermore, considering that you are issued with a CX seniority number after 6 months (issue of grade 2), is there any chance you'll be on SO pay?
I know, I know, highly unlikely...
Also: They seem to be having problems with foreign licence conversions. FTA aren't sure how they're going to handle the logistics of this program. However, there will be interviews and testing in ADL and a second interview with CX in HKG.
When they claim "secondment" back to FTA... does that imply that you are still employed by Cathay and paid by Cathay? Or are you somehow "released" to FTA and employed (and therefore paid) by them? What I'm getting at is who's paying the bills here? Furthermore, considering that you are issued with a CX seniority number after 6 months (issue of grade 2), is there any chance you'll be on SO pay?
I know, I know, highly unlikely...Also: They seem to be having problems with foreign licence conversions. FTA aren't sure how they're going to handle the logistics of this program. However, there will be interviews and testing in ADL and a second interview with CX in HKG.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Cap'n Arrr, the reason for the FTA secondment scheme annoying present, past and future cadets is that the program is open to anyone, expat or not. Yet the company did not think to give this opportunity to the guys and girls who have gone through the cadet program and are currently employed. If given the choice to pay AUD$30,000 and then instruct at FTA for a few years before getting the FULL package at CX over being employed on a local contract and earning 50% less than what the expats get for doing the same job for your entire career within the company.... what will any sane person choose? Not to mention that the majority of most cadets these days are expats anyway. I think you will find many expats actually being more 'locals' than a lot of the cadets.
The other issue is that the people going through this program will be jumping the queue in the seniority list without actually working for CX (ie: flying a CX aircraft). But this is an issue for the AOA to take up.
The other issue is that the people going through this program will be jumping the queue in the seniority list without actually working for CX (ie: flying a CX aircraft). But this is an issue for the AOA to take up.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Midget-
Probably the same cadet who told you there are 25 CX cadets this year?
Cadets at FTA are allowed to complain. All they need to do is to talk to the their respective training manager.
Don't take this personally, but please get your facts straight before posting. Thanks.
Everyone-
Back to the topic. If you guys look at the website about the program, there are "subject to satisfactory performance and behavior" everywhere.
I would go as far as saying that the program is essentially a 6-year interview process, which starts from training for the licenses all the way until the last days, 6 years from now, as a flight instructor at FTA.
6 years is a long time. 6 years ago, the airline industry around the world were still suffering from the wake of 9/11, where tens of thousands of pilots went jobless. Then there were SARS, and now, the world is experiencing the worst pilot shortage in 30 years.
As a few others have pointed out, no one knows what happens in these 4, 5 or 6 years. Even if there are no major events that hinder the industry growth, a lot could happen to you as an instructor.
If you screw up just this much, you might not be flying rubber dog s**t out of Hong Kong!
Flight instructors don't need to work 5 years to land an airline job. It would be a regional airline job, but they would at least get turboprop or jet experiences under their belt. On the other hand, not many major airlines look at applicants with only piston experience.
There are compromises if one were to join this program. It just depends on if you are willing to live with those compromises.
Probably the same cadet who told you there are 25 CX cadets this year?
Cadets at FTA are allowed to complain. All they need to do is to talk to the their respective training manager.
Don't take this personally, but please get your facts straight before posting. Thanks.
Everyone-
Back to the topic. If you guys look at the website about the program, there are "subject to satisfactory performance and behavior" everywhere.
I would go as far as saying that the program is essentially a 6-year interview process, which starts from training for the licenses all the way until the last days, 6 years from now, as a flight instructor at FTA.
6 years is a long time. 6 years ago, the airline industry around the world were still suffering from the wake of 9/11, where tens of thousands of pilots went jobless. Then there were SARS, and now, the world is experiencing the worst pilot shortage in 30 years.
As a few others have pointed out, no one knows what happens in these 4, 5 or 6 years. Even if there are no major events that hinder the industry growth, a lot could happen to you as an instructor.
If you screw up just this much, you might not be flying rubber dog s**t out of Hong Kong!
Flight instructors don't need to work 5 years to land an airline job. It would be a regional airline job, but they would at least get turboprop or jet experiences under their belt. On the other hand, not many major airlines look at applicants with only piston experience.
There are compromises if one were to join this program. It just depends on if you are willing to live with those compromises.
sgsslok
I gather from your profile you are probably a cadet so I will answer your points based on this.
And you don’t think this is what it is like when you join CX? Every promotion you will get here is subject to that and in some cases if you don’t perform you will be fired.
And again you think it will stop when you come to CX or any airline that matter. This is an industry where you will be scrutinised and micro managed until you are blue in the face. I suggest you get use to it now because it will never stop.
So what you are trying to tell people here is that if they don’t go this way but instead go and pay for their own licences etc and do the years slogging it out in GA that it will be different? I’ve got news for you buddy. This industry is a hard slog and there are no guarantees what ever way you may decide to go.
And more debt to pay for the turbo prop endorsement. The way the pay structure is with some of these regional’s you’re better off staying in GA because you will earn more and that isn't much either.
That’s funny. The last time I looked at QF for example there were many DESO getting in with only piston engine time. I got into CX with only piston time back in 2000, mind you I had a s**t load of it and the right type as well.
Yes there are, just as there are compromises with every path to a major airline job. If it’s GA it’s living in s**t hole places, crap pay and flogged out aircraft as well as paying off a huge debt to get your licence in the first place. If it’s the military you have ROS issues and possibly being shot at and killed.
If you think AUD$30000.00 is a large debt, my training costs were about AUD$20000.00 more than this and I learnt to fly in the mid 80’s. To learn to fly today with all these tickets you won’t have much change out of AUD$100000.00. If you then go to the regional’s it will be even more when you add on the endorsement costs that most of them seem to charge these days and possibly ROS or bonding just to rub the salt in.
Quite frankly I see way more positives to this scheme than negatives and I have been in the industry 22 years now and seen them all.
I gather from your profile you are probably a cadet so I will answer your points based on this.
If you guys look at the website about the program, there are "subject to satisfactory performance and behavior" everywhere.
I would go as far as saying that the program is essentially a 6-year interview process, which starts from training for the licenses all the way until the last days, 6 years from now, as a flight instructor at FTA.
As a few others have pointed out, no one knows what happens in these 4, 5 or 6 years. Even if there are no major events that hinder the industry growth, a lot could happen to you as an instructor.
Flight instructors don't need to work 5 years to land an airline job. It would be a regional airline job, but they would at least get turboprop or jet experiences under their belt.
On the other hand, not many major airlines look at applicants with only piston experience.
There are compromises if one were to join this program. It just depends on if you are willing to live with those compromises.
If you think AUD$30000.00 is a large debt, my training costs were about AUD$20000.00 more than this and I learnt to fly in the mid 80’s. To learn to fly today with all these tickets you won’t have much change out of AUD$100000.00. If you then go to the regional’s it will be even more when you add on the endorsement costs that most of them seem to charge these days and possibly ROS or bonding just to rub the salt in.
Quite frankly I see way more positives to this scheme than negatives and I have been in the industry 22 years now and seen them all.
Well said Kelv, especially even though it's only open for aussies atm, I am sure there are heaps of past cadets who are aussies and wouldn't mind paying 30K-35K ...
404Titan, both you and sggslok have some good points, but the dude knows what it's like in GA, the dude has done part of the hardship before going to parafield anyway....
404Titan, both you and sggslok have some good points, but the dude knows what it's like in GA, the dude has done part of the hardship before going to parafield anyway....
hyg
I think you have to look at it from a minimum cost point of view for the applicant. If they have more than 2-3 years already in GA, I wouldn’t bother with this CX/FTA scholarship deal. You’re better off slogging it out for another 2-3 years and applying to CX or what ever airline and take your chance then. If you have less than this it is a very good deal from a cost and time prospective. Less debt, living in a capital city, good pay for GA standards and an almost guaranteed path into a major airline.
Current DESO’s coming into CX have already done on average about 7 years in GA excluding training time so the idea of doing about 4 years at FTA, having most of your training paid for and having a guaranteed job at CX at the end of it if you perform is very appealing indeed.
I think you have to look at it from a minimum cost point of view for the applicant. If they have more than 2-3 years already in GA, I wouldn’t bother with this CX/FTA scholarship deal. You’re better off slogging it out for another 2-3 years and applying to CX or what ever airline and take your chance then. If you have less than this it is a very good deal from a cost and time prospective. Less debt, living in a capital city, good pay for GA standards and an almost guaranteed path into a major airline.
Current DESO’s coming into CX have already done on average about 7 years in GA excluding training time so the idea of doing about 4 years at FTA, having most of your training paid for and having a guaranteed job at CX at the end of it if you perform is very appealing indeed.