Lon More

GSPOT Did you consider the fact that the cause of the restrictions affecting you was probably not at FL450? Few secrors start at that Level, in fact it is entirely possible that you flew in a sector where the lowest level was FL250, and even if you are not actively being controlled you are being monitored thus contributing to the workload. As stated elsewhere the controllers' actions are being monitored for deviations from SOPs (what would your operator do if you did that?)

However the problem probably lies in the fact that, sooner or later, you will have to leave your lofty throne and mingle with the masses on approach to destination, where the traffic flow is being regulated. Your early arrival could just be the one straw that breaks the camel's back.

G-SPOTs Lost

Yep I did consider that, my point is is that I need a whole less monitoring when Im 6000ft vertically clear of other traffic, we dont have the big picture and I've utmost respect for the ones that do regardless of FIR and I dont profess to have all the answers...... but I do have two good ears and an "expanded" button on my TCAS panel. Up there we check in and we check out - very little interaction with controllers as you'd expect

What would you have me do? M0.85 at FL350 amongst the 73's and Airbuses

Anyway notwithstanding all that......I'm not stupid enough to argue on the operational side

Any corporate pilot in his business jet at FL400+ has spent the last 15 years coming of Malaga getting DCT Balen DCT Villatobas DCT Delog dct Salco, we've got quite a distinctive call sign and are always happy to oblige we've even been bribed to climb with a direct in the past..... people cant have it both ways so your arguement about all arriving at the wrong time might have worked if we hadn't been doing it for 10 years + besides our destination aren't in Spain



This is purely work to rule becasue of the salary/ T&C situation, but Spanish ATC have picked the wrong audience - the end user. A strike and total shutdown of the airspace will get peoples attention - not having me arrive with less fuel than I planned for because I cant get a level to counter stronger than forecast winds - we need that flexibility

Instead of focusing on the operational aspect of my post and trying to belittle people with references to "Lofty Thrones" and "Mingling with the Masses" play the ball and not the man - dont personalise things and answer the questions.....

Is quarter of a million quid a year not enough to be an ATCO in Spain?

Without getting into the standard of service we get down there - are they worth twice what a UK ATCO earns?

Whilst having sympathy for the plight of the Spanish ATC - they've had it good for a long long time - obviously some of the horror stories are indeed bordering on negligent/downright dangerous but if its that bad - only cancelling peoples holidays due to ATC action and closing the airspace is going to work - not making me land 15 minutes late with 800lbs less fuel than I thought I would have......

The irony is I'd happily put up with it if I felt it would do any good

samotnik

Yeah, you're right. But the moment, when you have to start your descent, will finally come. And what then? You were expected to arrive to a specific sector, at a specific level and on a specific time. You happened to arrive too soon, the sector you're in is overloaded and you have to hold enroute at FL400+. Are you happy? Or you are in a totally different sector where nobody expected you to descend at all. There is no room, there is no RTF time to handle your descent. What then? Of course nobody will hold you until you burn all the fuel and crash, but such situation is inconvenient, annoying and potentially dangerous. The whole ATM system network is being constantly developed to AVOID such hazards. It's no problem if it happens once per shift, but not if you have several a/c, which you didn't expect to have, at a time...

That' why pilots should not expect that every direct routing request will be approved. ATCos do their best to shortcut your flight, but it's not always possible.

IMHO it's all over again about pilots not being aware of ATC job. Please, visit an ATC facility, talk to ATCos, try to get the big picture. Check how dozens of state-of-art, complex, distributed all over the world systems work to get you (and thousands of other a/c) smoothly through the sky at one time. It's a complex task and sometimes it heavily depends on such small factors as, for instance, sticking close to flight plan routing.

G-SPOTs Lost

Samotnik

I appreciate what you are saying and yes my visit to an ATC facility is long overdue I admit, but again you seem to be cherrypicking your arguements.

But theres been a whole lot more ATC visits by pilots than fam flights in the last 9 years (not through choice admittedly) and I think its sometimes forgotten theat we have our own sets of problems too and its frustrating when they get added to for no apparent reason. Admittedly things aren't as bad as having to take our kids to work but we have issues nevertheless

Once again I'll outline my grievances. PS Ive nothing against Spanish ATC

1. Is quarter of a million quid a year not enough to be an ATCO in Spain?

2. Without getting into the standard of service we get down there - are they worth twice what a UK/EU ATCO earns?

3. Ok you may have me on operational ATC matters - but if we cant get a direct why the restrictions on a cruise level between say 390 and FL450 - theres nobody to bother in the descent in the main between those levels and we'll come down early if you like.

4. How have we coped in the last 10 years with the operational problems you describe or is just coincidence that these problems are more apparent whilst Spanish ATC are fighting for Ts & Cs

Our destination is in the UK - regardless of what sector we end up in we always have to make certain levels at certain places which are far from optimal - not complaining about that - thats just life in the big city, but its important that we get a good level earlier in the flight to make economic sense

Im sorry but it waddles like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, its lays eggs like a duck then its a duck.

This is the result of work to rule by the Spanish, I fully appreciate the need for action you only have to read some of the posts on here to realise it but all you're/they're doing is increasing emmisions, burning fuel, inconveniencing passengers.

GO ON STRIKE - make people aware of your plight get instead of trying to cause death by a thousand paper cuts

samotnik

G-SPOT, I won't discuss about Spanish ATC and their T&C problems. All I want to say is that your aircraft is expected to be in a specific place, at a specific level and on a specified time all the time during your flight. On a busy day the whole network of ATM systems and ATC staff depend on it. There's really been a lot of discussion about how important is it (or not), whether an early/late departure affects this more than any shortcut etc. There are mathematical calculations, numerical models and much of sophisticated software designed to confirm or disconfirm various theories regarding flow management. But for an ATCo on duty it's simple: he can give you a shortcut, or approve a departure outside CTOT window, or not. Some of ATCos are allowed and willing to do it, some don't. Just don't rely on any deviation from your flight plan and if some gets approved, then treat it as a courtesy of a specific fellow down there. Life gets easier this way.

samotnik

BTW, G-SPOT, it's your company who pushes ANSP to save every penny. There is really a lot of pressure from airspace users to cut costs down to the very bottom. Just stop this trend and who knows, with a small increase in ATC fee, every single sector will be manned and you will get any your inflight request approved. Unfortunately, now it look that airlines want to decide about any penny spent by ANSP, provided that, of course, there will be constant cost reduction and quality increase, at one time. Do I tell you how much you should earn as a pilot? Well, unfortunately your company would like to decide on my salary. That's ugly.

G-SPOTs Lost

Samotnik...

Well thanks for that in the context of this thread you've been absolutely no help whatsoever.

Anybody else want to answer the non operational awkward questions without giving the "stock" answer.

Theres upwards of 12 pages on this very subject in rumours and news and its not pleasant reading

Anyway all the best Spanish ATCO's, hope you get it sorted and things come back to this aparently never existed normal soon

Del Prado

1+2 are the same questions and I can't answer it, though I would like to see confirmation of what a Spanish ATCO actually earns rather than the rubbish that's trotted out in the media.

3. That's an operational question.

4. Apparently they've retired all ATCOs aged 57 and over and haven't been recruiting for six? years so I assume staffing levels are way below the levels of 10 years ago.
It looks like this 'crisis' has been orchestrated for quite some time. ie. It's cheaper to offer (generous) overtime to existing ATCOs than hire and train the right amount.
Once the overtime becomes 'normal' unilaterally impose it as a normal working practise and stop overtime payments.
Wait for the right time to do this eg recession and orchestrate media campaign against ATCOs.
Remove their right to strike.

It sets a dangerous precedent for ATCOs across europe and unlike pilots we have very little scope to change employer, which is unfortunate as there's a worldwide shortage of ATCOs.

speedbird462

approach procedures in Spain
I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!

fireflybob

And yet yesterday coming back from south Spain to UK we're filed FL 380 but had to cruise at FL360!! ATC were very apologetic that FL380 was not available but how does this compare with the arguments raised wrt GSPOT?

p_perez

Hello!

AENA published the rosters for august last july 21th, applying the new 10-day notice for Spanish ATCO´s. And here is an example:

1. Vacation
2. 1500->2200
3. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
4. 0000->0800
5. 1500->2200
6. 0800->1500
7. Day off
8. 1500->2200
9. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
10. 0000->0800
11. Day off
12. 1500->2200
13. 1500->2200
14. 1500->2200
15. 0800->1500
16. Day off
17. Day off
18. 0800->1500
19. 1500->2200
20. 1500->2200
21. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
22. 0000->0800
23. 1500->2200
24. 0800->1500
25. 0800->1500
26. 1500->2200
27. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
28. 0000->0800
29. 0800->1500
30. 0800->1500
31. 0800->1500

It sums 194 hrs. in 30 days, with only 4 days off. Notice the last 14 days working in a row, with no day off.



Yet another example:

1. Day off
2. 1500->2200
3. "0700->0830" (he must be on call in this period, if needed, he has to work from the moment he gets the call->1500)
4. 0800->1500
5. 1500->2200
6. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
7. 0000->0800
8. 1500->2200
9. Day off
10. 0800->1500
11. 1500->2200
12. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
13. 0000->0800
14. Day off
15. 1500->2200
16. 0800->1500
17. 1500->2200
18. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
19. 0000->0800
20. Day off
21. 1500->2200
22. 1500->2200
23. 1500->2200
24. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
25. 0000->0800
26. Day off
27. 1500->2200
28. 1500->2200
29. 1500->2200
30. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
31. 0000->0800

In this case, 191,4 hrs. with the chance of becoming 198 hrs. if he gets the call on the 3rd, which is highly probable.

In both cases, you get a 33% rest (sleep) from 2200->0800, and a 25% on remainder periods. Times are local, not UTC.

Salary? Well, I don´t know these guys and their professional level, but it must be around 5000€ (+/- 500€) for this amount of worked hours.

BTW, AENA is hiring, so if you are interested ...


¡Saludos!

lederhosen

You have provided a link into the lion's den as far as us pilots are concerned. So in the full knowledge that I am probably going to get mugged by a band of angry and of course overworked controllers let me say the following.

Your roster does of course look as though the scheduling system is out of control. However given that most of the single days off are actually 48 hour periods free of duty most of us pilots could point to similar stretches.

You do not provide detail as to what duties you are expected to perform during this time. Is any of it standby, reserve or whatever you call it?

It looks as though your employer is attempting to respond to the sickout by scheduling every controller to the limit. That way he has maximum flexibility to respond.

SINGAPURCANAC

requirements? offer? available location? any official link to vacancy.......

andrijander

Lederhosen, just a punctualization, but on those days off you may get a phone call and be told to show up at work (within the hour? correct me if I'm wrong) So forget about going anywhere or leaving your phone out of reach...hardly a day off then, is it? Do you as a pilot suffer that?

Please notice I'm not talking about anything else (sallaries, service quality, etc...)

A.

PD: singapur, one word: esquirol. Not calling you that myself, but be aware you may be called that...with what it entails! So proceed at own risk.

Rgrds to all.

lederhosen

Goodness I stray into the wilds of the Atc forum and so far I have only had one half hearted push from behind. I guess the real mob only comes out at night.

Yes of course I know what standby is. Pilots get lots of it, some for months at a time. I can even guess what punctualisation is, although its not really a level four sort of word.

Just to clarify my question, does any of the 194 hours include any element of standby?

Denti

We currently have quite a few pilots scheduled up to 220 hours of duty per month, no thanks to the spanish ATC situation, amongst other things of course, but it is a major sore point. This of course means increasing sickness percentages, the disruptions of rotations due to ATC delays (way over 2000 hours since may alone) makes a plannable private live for all of our crews completely impossible, not to note that it means we will produce a loss instead of a profit this year due to this endangering around 10.000 jobs and possibly several hundred thousands of stranded passengers.

So it seems you just try to do upon your client what has been done to you, with the marked difference that we have to turn a profit to stay in business, ATC does not.

p_perez

The only standby or on-call shift is on the 3rd day of the 2nd roster. I'm sure there are other tight rosters out there, but I doubt they are comparable to ours.

Every day we go to work we have to insert our ID card in the machine upon arrival and departure: we are required to arrive on time , and we are not allowed to go home early, even if our last period is of rest.

BDiONU

The largest single ATC employer and ANSP in UK, NATS, is not government run, it's a company and must turn a profit. Admittedly the only ANSP in Europe which is privately owned

BD

kontrolor

perez, did you protest when they imposed low quantity of working hours, did you require them to change the rostering - to avoid overtime?

Chesty Morgan

Where's the problem with that? Everyday I go to work I am required to check in on a PC. At the end of my duty I have to walk from the aircraft to the crew room, which can be quite a distance, do a bit of paperwork and then check out on a PC, I'd rather just walk straight through the terminal get the bus and bugger off home but as I'm a professional, with some morals, I do what my company asks of me.

I can't go home early.

Surely turning up on time is what a professional does. If you don't want to be there don't turn up at all but if you do want to be there why would you turn up late?