ATC situation in Spain
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I have just read the long post here and i am an ATCO in uk and if i am completely honest with you, taking into account the hours that have been done in spain, i'm under the impression that the spanish ATCOs earn more than in the UK per hour worked. i hope that helps.
that asside, i can appreciate the fact that a strike wouldn't help your cause and not giving any direct routeings seems like a sensible case considering that you may be concerned with overloads but when im working and i am feeling like i am being overloaded (and in some cases, plan ahead and think you may become overloaded) all i would do is call the previous sector and say "no more traffic". i don't know if that is an option for you but i agree that overloads are a horrible feeling and i believe they should be investigated more in depth and more often not just dismissed in some cases.
i definitely feel for you guys working in spain at the moment. Ts and Cs are very close to being in a dictatorship. anyway, let me know what you think about the stopping of traffic entering your sector which might cause an overload. would like to hear what you think on that point?
good luck
that asside, i can appreciate the fact that a strike wouldn't help your cause and not giving any direct routeings seems like a sensible case considering that you may be concerned with overloads but when im working and i am feeling like i am being overloaded (and in some cases, plan ahead and think you may become overloaded) all i would do is call the previous sector and say "no more traffic". i don't know if that is an option for you but i agree that overloads are a horrible feeling and i believe they should be investigated more in depth and more often not just dismissed in some cases.
i definitely feel for you guys working in spain at the moment. Ts and Cs are very close to being in a dictatorship. anyway, let me know what you think about the stopping of traffic entering your sector which might cause an overload. would like to hear what you think on that point?
good luck
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Conspiracy theories,
If we talk about the past, before february 5th, probably we earned more per worked hour than any ATCO in the world, but like 70% of the income was from overtime. Overtimes were paid around 2,5 to 3 times the value of ordinary time. So when taking the mean income per hour, it was quite high. Now it is payed 0,8 so everything has changed. We never complained about money, but without overtime, our true fixed salary isn't at the top European class.
Regarding the "I don't accept more traffic" method, this is the most important thing that happened with the february decree: We do not have the operational control anymore, we are not the ones deciding the runway in use, we are not the ones deciding if a calibrator flight has to leave due to high trafic load, and we cannot take flow actions as before. And you are talkng about a flow action. Now it's AENA in charge of operationel decisions, made by people on a business with no ATC license, not having a clue of what's happening inside ACC's. They decide biased by economical issues, and that is the reason why flying in Spain is far from being controlled, the reason why there are so many overloads, the reason also why we cannot direct routes, and, imho, the worst thing that happened on febrary 5th. Far worse than the salary cut. It's the only country where the controllers are not the ones who are in charge of operational decisions, but we keep the responsibility intact, he he.
If we talk about the past, before february 5th, probably we earned more per worked hour than any ATCO in the world, but like 70% of the income was from overtime. Overtimes were paid around 2,5 to 3 times the value of ordinary time. So when taking the mean income per hour, it was quite high. Now it is payed 0,8 so everything has changed. We never complained about money, but without overtime, our true fixed salary isn't at the top European class.
Regarding the "I don't accept more traffic" method, this is the most important thing that happened with the february decree: We do not have the operational control anymore, we are not the ones deciding the runway in use, we are not the ones deciding if a calibrator flight has to leave due to high trafic load, and we cannot take flow actions as before. And you are talkng about a flow action. Now it's AENA in charge of operationel decisions, made by people on a business with no ATC license, not having a clue of what's happening inside ACC's. They decide biased by economical issues, and that is the reason why flying in Spain is far from being controlled, the reason why there are so many overloads, the reason also why we cannot direct routes, and, imho, the worst thing that happened on febrary 5th. Far worse than the salary cut. It's the only country where the controllers are not the ones who are in charge of operational decisions, but we keep the responsibility intact, he he.
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p_perez,
I'm under the impression that ATCO's in Spain have been 'fiddling' the system for years. Bending the rules to achieve over time payments that have resulted in the massive salaries. Also the fact that Spanish Air Traffic is not open to competition as a direct result of union protection results in Spain paying 80 odd million euros in fines to the EU.
Is this incorrect? And is all this punishment you are now suffering a result of taking the pi$$ for to long?
This is what I've been told... how true is all of this?
I'm under the impression that ATCO's in Spain have been 'fiddling' the system for years. Bending the rules to achieve over time payments that have resulted in the massive salaries. Also the fact that Spanish Air Traffic is not open to competition as a direct result of union protection results in Spain paying 80 odd million euros in fines to the EU.
Is this incorrect? And is all this punishment you are now suffering a result of taking the pi$$ for to long?
This is what I've been told... how true is all of this?
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However one feels about the Ts & Cs previously enjoyed by Spanish ATCOs, AENA didn't get into a hole this deep without seriously C
P management. Unfortunately for their staff and their users, their way of getting out of the hole seems to have been to fill it with petrol then throw in a match!
One wonder how the previous NATS management regime thought that they could have a meeting of minds when they tried to set up a Joint Venture with AENA to develop ATC systems. Did they do much in the way of due diligence? Still, the lost time and money from that exercise doesn't seem to have significantly harmed anyone's bonuses.
P management. Unfortunately for their staff and their users, their way of getting out of the hole seems to have been to fill it with petrol then throw in a match!One wonder how the previous NATS management regime thought that they could have a meeting of minds when they tried to set up a Joint Venture with AENA to develop ATC systems. Did they do much in the way of due diligence? Still, the lost time and money from that exercise doesn't seem to have significantly harmed anyone's bonuses.
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I laughed the other day when a Royal Air Maroc (RAM) asked Sevilla for a direct and the controller never answered his repeated requests. A few minutes later the same request was asked by the same pilot in his best Spanish.... and he got what he asked for! 
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We asked for a direct yesterday in English but very friendly. We told the controler we would realy appreciate his help since we were hours behind schedule. And we got what we asked for.
I don't think the aggressive, and arrogant comments you sometimes hear from pilots help a lot.
I have my frustrations too with the controlers from time to time. But I will never judge them or behave arrogantly. And I think that a lot of critism is exagerated.
Thank you Perez for your explanation. I understand things a bit more now. I wish you luck and hope that at the same time us pilots and pasengers are not too much affected by it.
And for people who keep talking about the high salaries.... I get a bit tired of the mentality that many people have that others shouldn't make more than what they make... It's just jealousy.
I don't think the aggressive, and arrogant comments you sometimes hear from pilots help a lot.
I have my frustrations too with the controlers from time to time. But I will never judge them or behave arrogantly. And I think that a lot of critism is exagerated.
Thank you Perez for your explanation. I understand things a bit more now. I wish you luck and hope that at the same time us pilots and pasengers are not too much affected by it.
And for people who keep talking about the high salaries.... I get a bit tired of the mentality that many people have that others shouldn't make more than what they make... It's just jealousy.
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And for people who keep talking about the high salaries.... I get a bit tired of the mentality that many people have that others shouldn't make more than what they make... It's just jealousy.
Now if their actions whould get them somewhere I would understand, but just punishing us because they disaggree with their bosses or politicians frustrates me and it will have no result.
What do their chiefs care if we have our already very long day extended by an hour or two or if we burn a ton extra, they probably don't even notice.
If they want to get to the people in charge they should stop working completely instead of harrassing us.
Or they could just be happy that they still earn in one month what you would normally have to work a year for, even if it means they will have to settle with one Ferrari less each year.
By the way, I'm not jealous but I find it difficult to imagine that when you have such an irrealistically astronomically high sallary you still aren't happy about what you have.
That's just my opinion.
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bart2, I'm sorry, but you're just crying like a baby. It looks like you ARE jealous that someone makes more money than you. I'm sorry to inform you, but there are millions people on Earth making more than 2kEUR/month. Many among them are pilots. Kill'em all.
Maybe you should just become an ATCo? If you think it's an easy job that everybody can perform, than there's nothing easier just to hop in and start doing it, earning those zillions of phollars.
In any case that ATC doesn't give you shortcuts and non-FP levels due to their strike-like action (which is what I disagree, in my opinion it's not a proper way to strike, but anyway in some countries it's the only legal solution), it's your company who has a problem. If your company punishes you because you didn't get a shortcut or didn't manage to take off outside CTOT window, then you simply have a very, very, very ****ty job. Change it ASAP.
If you get back home two hours late on a regular basis, it means nothing more than that your company has a big problem creating schedules appropriate to this busy, high traffic volume and "cost-effective" time.
BTW, remember that some ATCos are fighting their fight because they have the same problem - they do overtime that they don't get paid for and they are forced to come back to work without appropriate rest. And there is no doubt - ATC job is more exhausting than pilot, since it requires constant attention, otherwise situation easily gets bad. So much attention, that if there is a video on youtube showing some ATCos not paying attention to their screens for a couple of seconds, a dozen of pilots calls them 'chimps' and demands to sack them. Bear that in mind next time you will relax in the cockpit, monitoring occasional transmissions, watching beautiful views and drinking cofee served by good-looking attendant.
ATC job has one major difference comparing to yours - possibilities to change the employer are very, very limited. So we have no other option than to fight, and you can simply switch to another airline. Which is what I suggest strongly, if any late arrival is your PERSONAL problem and not your company's.
Maybe you should just become an ATCo? If you think it's an easy job that everybody can perform, than there's nothing easier just to hop in and start doing it, earning those zillions of phollars.
In any case that ATC doesn't give you shortcuts and non-FP levels due to their strike-like action (which is what I disagree, in my opinion it's not a proper way to strike, but anyway in some countries it's the only legal solution), it's your company who has a problem. If your company punishes you because you didn't get a shortcut or didn't manage to take off outside CTOT window, then you simply have a very, very, very ****ty job. Change it ASAP.
If you get back home two hours late on a regular basis, it means nothing more than that your company has a big problem creating schedules appropriate to this busy, high traffic volume and "cost-effective" time.
BTW, remember that some ATCos are fighting their fight because they have the same problem - they do overtime that they don't get paid for and they are forced to come back to work without appropriate rest. And there is no doubt - ATC job is more exhausting than pilot, since it requires constant attention, otherwise situation easily gets bad. So much attention, that if there is a video on youtube showing some ATCos not paying attention to their screens for a couple of seconds, a dozen of pilots calls them 'chimps' and demands to sack them. Bear that in mind next time you will relax in the cockpit, monitoring occasional transmissions, watching beautiful views and drinking cofee served by good-looking attendant.
ATC job has one major difference comparing to yours - possibilities to change the employer are very, very limited. So we have no other option than to fight, and you can simply switch to another airline. Which is what I suggest strongly, if any late arrival is your PERSONAL problem and not your company's.
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bart2, I'm sorry, but you're just crying like a baby. It looks like you ARE jealous that someone makes more money than you. I'm sorry to inform you, but there are millions people on Earth making more than 2kEUR/month. Many among them are pilots. Kill'em all.
What I am saying is that for that kind of money they are getting I think a likewise effort from their side is not too much to ask. And furthermore I don't see how they will get what they want just by making us fly the planned route or turning a 12 hour working day into a 13 hour working day because of the associated slots.
But anyway, I am wasting my time trying to get my point across because it is useless anyway. People tend to see thing from their point of view only, I should not have bothered posting anything.
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People tend to see thing from their point of view only
"Sometimes it is better to leave people wondering if you might be a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
Privatisation of Spanish ATC
The way I see it is this...AENA consists of two sections i.e. Airports and Air Traffic Services (= ATC). In recent years the construction industry and thrived on unneeded airport Terminal "improvement" projects such as can be seen today at Madrid, Barcleona, Alicante etc.....pockets have been lined no doubt by many individuals in all politcal parties during their construction.
Now the building boom has come to an end and AENA is looking for new ways to help out it's pals. The cherry now is the Privatisation of Spanish ATC. A few individuals will come out of this very well indeed. This is what this is really all about.
Now the building boom has come to an end and AENA is looking for new ways to help out it's pals. The cherry now is the Privatisation of Spanish ATC. A few individuals will come out of this very well indeed. This is what this is really all about.
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Spanish Air Traffic Controllers say no strike in August
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By h.b. - Aug 10, 2010 - 9:35 PM
César Cabo, the communications secretary of the USCA union - EFE
The decision has been welcomed by the tourist sector and talks with AENA are set to restart on Wednesday
The Spanish Air Traffic Controllers have decided, in a meeting this (Tuesday) evening that they will not call a strike in August. The USCA union says they have taken the decision following requests from the tourist sector and the airlines, underlining that they understand the concerns voiced by the industry.
USCA Spokesman, César Cabo, said the decision was ‘a demonstration of responsibility’ by the controllers.
Airlines, hoteliers and travel agencies have been quick to welcome the decision.
The Spanish Airport Authority, AENA, has responded to the news by saying that they will restart talks with the union tomorrow, Wednesday.
Read more: Spanish Air Traffic Controllers say no strike in August
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By h.b. - Aug 10, 2010 - 9:35 PM
César Cabo, the communications secretary of the USCA union - EFE The decision has been welcomed by the tourist sector and talks with AENA are set to restart on Wednesday
The Spanish Air Traffic Controllers have decided, in a meeting this (Tuesday) evening that they will not call a strike in August. The USCA union says they have taken the decision following requests from the tourist sector and the airlines, underlining that they understand the concerns voiced by the industry.
USCA Spokesman, César Cabo, said the decision was ‘a demonstration of responsibility’ by the controllers.
Airlines, hoteliers and travel agencies have been quick to welcome the decision.
The Spanish Airport Authority, AENA, has responded to the news by saying that they will restart talks with the union tomorrow, Wednesday.
Read more: Spanish Air Traffic Controllers say no strike in August
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p_perez,
Just wanted to express my deepest sympathy with you and your colleagues. It is indeed shocking to watch the tyranny being imposed on your terms and conditions. Good luck
Are there any further development since your last post ?
Just wanted to express my deepest sympathy with you and your colleagues. It is indeed shocking to watch the tyranny being imposed on your terms and conditions. Good luck
Are there any further development since your last post ?
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Nothing has improved since summer. And on top of that this week AENA has notified us (of course without negotiating) that hour working hours have been increased to 1800 (used to be 1200 and then 1670 after the decree on february) and how and when we have to enjoy next year's holidays.
Last ATCOs coming out from the "old" ATC school (since the decree we now have three new private ATC schools in Spain) have just been employed by AENA with a different contract and with salaries ranging from 1800 to 2100 euros (taxes not included).
In the next weeks we'll know (or so they say) which twrs will be privatized. We still have no idea of what is going to happen with the ATCOs working in them.
And looks like our situation is spreading to other countries (preparing for the single sky?). I'm happy to see that at last we are starting to have some coordination between european ATC trade unions.
Last ATCOs coming out from the "old" ATC school (since the decree we now have three new private ATC schools in Spain) have just been employed by AENA with a different contract and with salaries ranging from 1800 to 2100 euros (taxes not included).
In the next weeks we'll know (or so they say) which twrs will be privatized. We still have no idea of what is going to happen with the ATCOs working in them.
And looks like our situation is spreading to other countries (preparing for the single sky?). I'm happy to see that at last we are starting to have some coordination between european ATC trade unions.
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A small update here:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post6067318
I feel that the climax is near ...
Saludos!
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post6067318
I feel that the climax is near ...
Saludos!
