Pilot fatigue...a victory, of sorts
 

Very interesting, and well done to anyone who stands up for themselves.

I am concerned that I did not know about the case, as it could affect other UK pilots.

Where publicity is appropriate, we need to know about this sort of thing, so:-

- support can be offered;

- the behaviour of employers is know to employees.

If only we had a resource whereby such case information is shared for us all to benefit.

How would such a thing be facilitated, I wonder ...........

Although the company have been totally discredited, the payout is unlikely to be adequate compensation for the loss of his position, and future difficulty in explaining his situation to any prospective employer.

In the meantime the company have managed to achieve a convincing demonstration of "pour encourager les autres " for a relatively small forfeit (I imagine ) & will never have another fatigue report /refusal to extend for the foreseeable.

Whilst admirable in itself, it is a hopeless gesture in the grand scheme of things if no action is taken against the company by the relevant authority charged with oversight, and that ain't gonna happen any time soon . . . too many "old boys club" / funny handshakes around for that to be a risk. :mad:

Well, maybe; it was certainly a factor a decade or two ago and for all I know still is.

But the most likely reason in 2016 is the mixture of aeronautical incompetence, bureaucracy, and time-serving laziness that has taken over at the UK CAA, where anyone who might have had the balls to confront and face down the operational management of a major operator on a safety issue left the building a long time ago.

Every time you get Ill because of fatigue, report it as an industrial injury. Then things will change.

I think you will find that the payout will be very much more than adequate.
This tale has been very long in the telling as has a fair way to go yet.

Oh my. The company produced a duty schedule beyond permissible max FDP and told court it would be legal for CMD to use discretion to make their plan happen!

Genuine question, is this how UK CAA interprets the rules? Here's ours, I believe bog standard, OM-A wording (my bolding ):
(caveat: the above issue is not the crux of the argument at court as I understand it, and was completely avoided in the judgement)

One of the dissapointing things here is that BALPA did not give their support until this was well down the road, given the importance of this to ALL members I would say this should have been supported right from the start!

Just a shame that the F word is being used so much when the S word Sleepiness is more appropriate in this case.

Anyone know how to download and save the judgement? My efforts so far lose the formatting in PDF.

PC Windows 10.......don't ask!

So far, I cannot read beyond the bottom of page 25.

Starbear,

Try "print to file".

After the tram crash in Croydon there are a few cases coming to light of the drivers being 'sleepy' at the controls. Pax taking photos of a nodding off driver last week. Now I understand the real reason for a locked cockpit door and no visits.

Disgusted is too lame a word (if as reported ) BALPA didn't support this from Day 1 . . . . . where are this Unions Balls ?

Oh, I know . . . down at the local lodge, where they always hold balls. . . . .


I know you think I have some sort of obsession with this, but, having been a victim of it in 1996, when the 2 guys on the opposite side of the table were in fact being helped, rather than challenged, by my "support" on my side of the table (who, of course went on to become part of the Flt Ops management ) I don't believe it has changed measurably.

Ask your CC member directly . . . do you drink in the same lodge as the management ? go on, ask him !

Mr Angry....care to elaborate?

Senior Management,and Corporate Leaders should face prison terms should their organisation be found culpable or complicit in, fatigue-producing rosters or work practices, should that be found to be a causal factor in an accident.

The fish rots at the head, and these pricks should not just take the credit for profits.

Anything that affects the cognitive capability of a pilot is a safety issue. I've heard the argument between the F and S word and it's total BS.

The case which the court solved seems clear. Company was found to had acted illegaly in persecuting the pilot after his fatigued call and refusal of duty.
a) he did operate beyond the normally allowed FDP the day before
b) he genuinely felt unfit (personal remark: the term fatigue is normally associated with a different type of un-fitness)
c) moreover, the court explains that because of B he was not legal to operate anyhow.

Had the verdict been opposite, the whole idea of managing fatigue-associated risks (not the individual implemented systems = companies' procedures, but the concept in general ) would have been shred to pieces. So quite simple in this respect.

The narrative of the first day is what I find interesting. At the duty start, the plan was beyond the max permissible FDP. Are you allowed to commence a duty which requires discretion to complete?

Ask a certain Eastern European low cost Airbus operator who regularly rostered duties that were planned to go into discretion. Two such days in a row were not uncommon.

Right way up.

I too, would be intrigued to hear how Mr Angry's own personal experience has coloured his opinion. :)

How do we know his union did not give him their full support?

What happened to Tired Pilots Risk Lives?? That was a big campaign. This would have been such good PR for them, and a huge victory and precedent to quote in future.

So sad when individuals have to be sacrificed when there are thousands of pilots standing shoulder to shoulder.

We do stand shoulder to shoulder on fatigue, do we not?

If the guy concerned ever looks at this, hear this: you are a legend, "thank you on behalf of every UK pilot".

It is worth remembering that a Chief Pilot's favourite employee is the pilot he has never heard of. That pilot has never filed a safety report, always takes minimum fuel, always seems to arrive with fuel above minimums, always flies 2/3 hours of discretion without question and does all this without attracting complaints from his co-workers.

If you are someone that draws the line at rule-bending, never sharp-pencils loadsheets or flight plans and always files an MOR when safety is threatened - Then you are deemed to be 'difficult'.

Remember..... a Chief Pilot spends 98% of his working time dealing with 2% of his workforce. If an opportunity is presented to him to dispense with some/all of those 2% then he would obviously look to lighten his workload. It is simply human nature.

Chief Pilots are rather like football managers. 3 defeats and you are looking at the dole queue. If the CP says 'No' to one of his commercial superiors too many times then another ambitious individual is never far away.... waiting in the wings for his job.

Others' wrongdoings do not make mine right. If done on regular basis, the amount of MORs would raise a flag, enabling the scenario to be trapped by the system. Were those within the limit on the PLOGs?

In the case discussed the company's stance at court is that you can commence a duty planned on the use of discretion. Well, not in my EASA based OM-A, but maybe the wording of regulations has changed since.
Many of us, over-the-channel or even AOC-of-convenience operators, do look towards the UK for best practice. Hence my question about UK CAA stance on this, present day.

Oh believe me I wasn't suggesting it made it right, quite the opposite. Having worked such punishing rosters - where it was the norm for controlled rest to be carried out on every sector - the neglect from the airline and the regulator in allowing such practices to occur is frightening.

As I understand it, the pilot involved approached BALPA for legal assistance. The case was judged by the BALPA lawyers to be below a certain percentage chance of succeeding and so declined to fund the action. On winning the action, BALPA have been funding subsequent action and the remedy claim.

Rex, I did not, for a second. May I suspect, that Wizzair in the way of post-totalitarian mindset (same roots as me, actually) rigged the paperwork to make it look in line with the books?

I read the rest of your sentence as "misconduct by the operator and blind eye from regulator", in which I guess we'd now come the full circle back to the topic of this thread?

here is a link to download the complete 13 Mb PDF file.
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AnNYZSyyHWmAkn0zBoDnaKbDzQvJ

F & B

FWIW as I've heard it (through union sources) the sequence of events is pretty much as macdo described : the Union didn't provide support initially...

Magplug's got it right. The individual concerned would almost certainly be seen by (mis)management as being one of the 2%. His peers hold him in high regard and are grateful to him for standing up for common sense.

A shame the management took this stance when they did. It was an error of judgement on their behalf but they'll never admit it or say sorry.

Tay Cough

Thnak you for the suggestion which unfortunately was not successful. Think I have tried everything now and am now trawling through the document online. Its a pity because I think every airline pilot should read and keep this. Thanks again anyway.

Just spotted Mach 62's link: Thank you, worked perfectly.

[I fly from London to Australia non-stop
Will take 17 hours to Perth making it the worlds longest non stop route.[/I]

Well that's alright then. They'll lobby the muppets at EASA that there is a strong case to increase FTL's to make this economical. They could use a 'dispatch crew' to reduce check in to 30mins. They could then include a bunk behind the flight deck with a panic button for the 'on watch' pilot. C.A's would keep an eye on the PF to make sure they're awake. PM is napping & then they swap over.
Perhaps 2 hours discretion will be required, but hey, that's the norm, no? To avoid jet lag the crew will decamp into airport hotel, eat, sleep, shower, eat again then after 15hours total rest be on the way home.
Job done. Never say Never. Inspect the rosters from decades ago & now. Money talks, no shouts.

Thanks Mach62 for making the file available.

Interesting reading, well done to that captain concerned, curiously I wonder if those involved in this whole mismanagement such as the named Chief Pilot and DFO will continue to work in that company, surely their deceptive fraudulent behaviour which the tribunal unmasked, really inspire confidence in their pilots, should they be allowed to continue leading? those are serious questions which should be answered, they seem willing to risk public safety in order to simply by that account spite somebody who stood up to them.

Stan / Right Way

My view is inappropriate use of the word fatigue that's all. I've suffered from fatigue for sure and I might be wrong as the report didn't include the Captains roster leading up to the event.
All too often the F word is used when sleepiness might be more appropriate e.g. the need to sleep.

It's questionable why BALPA initially didn't get involve, as the chief pilot use to be the company council member, "old boys club"

And the named person as the Director of Ops this guy, VIDEO: Paul Hutchings, Group Director of Flight Operations ? World Travel Awards

Well say no more.

Did I hear that Director of Ops call the Dreamliner an Airbus A321 (at 00.38)?

it is actually the interviewer getting things wrong as TCX do not have the Screamliner! PH merely corrects him without making it too obvious!

My understanding on block times was that the schedule was in place seasonally. If on the day the predicted block time was longer the FDP was based on the scheduled time rather than the actual. This was of course on the assumption that the block time was accurate (which with so much time spent on OTP these days they normally are, apart from Ryanair who seem always to be much longer). The flight however was a one off. There must be data though on the flight to/from as these are standard sectors the bit in-between not.
In the days of CAP371 this was a constant discussion on long haul flights e.g. the old up to 7 and factorisation of ETOPS flights. You'd have thought the Captain would have run into that before and had similar discussions. In this case if the schedule was 8hrs 55hrs but due to headwinds 9hrs 40mins the FDP was based on the schedule times not predicted.
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Thank you Twiglet. Seasonal schedule and days when winds blow just the other way, it happens. However this was a round-robin routing, was it not?

Mr Angry

His roster of 3 earlies including an extended 3rd day followed by a transition to a late would suggest a fatiguing roster.

I am intrigued to the type of operation you fly in. You speak of the need to sleep rather than it being fatigue however his roster caused that lack of sleep by the earlies that then meant he woke early (5.30 ish) on the day of his late duty. That is fatigue!