Dual Control Input whilst landing
 

I have noticed that some captains like to keep their hand and feet on the contols whilst I am landing, and some occasionally even make a "dual input" (airbus).

I have several years on the type and my landings on average are just as good/bad as anyone else's.

However some captains don't seem to have confidence in their FO's whilst others are control freaks who like to be in complete control all the time, even when not their sector.

I get annoyed at this as :
- its an insult to my flying ability (to be able to fly myself, I am not at the pre-solo stage, I do have a licence)
- it distracts me as I am trying to land as well as trying to work out what the other pilot is doing with controls/about to do
- intereferes with my flying
- puts me off

As far as I am aware, dual input is not encouraged in the Airbus however some captains are aware that they can make very small inputs without the "dual input" audio (synthetic voice) activating. However I still see the "green arrow" (sidestick priority ligh) illuminate momentarliy up in front of me.

Twice recently the captain interfered with my landing, with the dual input resulting in a less than ideal landing. It was still ok, but it would have worked out just fine if the other pilot did not do anything.

Now should I :
- make a comment to the captain
- speak to management
- make a safety report to management
or
- do nothing and just put up with it

Hand over control. If a captain wants to land the plane it is within his rights to do so. After all he is the pilot in command. So just hand over control, a loud and clear "you have control" whilst removing your hands and feet from them should clear things up. Of course the flare is not the ideal place and time to do that, but it is still better than two pilots fighting for control and muddling up the landing.

- you are joking, are you not? NEVER cease flying an aeroplane until you have confirmed the other pilot has control. '"I have control" is what you need to hear.

JC - I suggest you speak privately to a 'friendly' TC if you know one if you do not feel able to go 'formal'. I would suggest that if it is happening with several Captains, however, you may have a problem and might start with them first? Deal with them as we have suggested, but more than that? This is not normal in my experience - maybe 1 or perhaps 2 who 'interfere' (I had that once, and in my landing brief said that I would hand over if he continued to try to steer (silently) on the rudder pedals during my roll). It stopped.

John Citizen - This sort of thing hacks me off as well. But I'd suggest that you give the unconfident knob control with the appropriate phrase. On the ground, explain why you did and if he doesn't buy it, let him fly every sector. Then complain to the appropriate person AND do the safety paperwork. And it won't only be you who they do it to. People like this have to be retrained until they stop interfering. The more you allow them to continue, the worse they'll get.

PM

Of course, it could be that the original poster is a lousy pilot, and scars the cr*p out of his Captains.:rolleyes:

Of course, it could be that was covered in post #3?

I don't think so.

I already said that my landings are (on average) are just as good/bad as any one else's (on average). We all win some and loose some, no matter how good some think they are.

What if I have not ever flown with this captain before (as recently happened) but he still thinks he should apply a dual input ? :confused:

I haven't even had a chance to proove myself yet (lousy or not) :confused:

Next time I fly with these captains, I might just hold the sidestick priority pushbutton down during the last 100' (that will :mad: them now).

I am only doing it to prevent the other pilot interfering.

Some might say this is dumb/stupid/dangerous and non-SOP, but so is making a dual input to start with (without pressing the sidestick priority pushbutton down in the first place).

I suppose you are taking it as a personal affront to your professionalism. But if you could, just for a moment, empathise with the Captain, and see things from his perspective in line with his personality and professional skills...you may be able to get over this sentiment of 'being under watch'.

As I see it, you may be reacting to the situation where you feel you are under trial. The truth of the matter is, every time you do a fine job of landing, you not only prove your professional acumen but more importantly you prove it to those 'doubting' captains their lack of belief in their FO.

You have to remain professional in your approach and thus prove them wrong in having doubted your skills in the first place.

John C

Don't even think about pressing the takeover button. I hope that was a 'tongue in cheek' remark.

Captains who 'ghost' on the controls are revealing their own shortcomings and lack of self-confidence. However, it should be discussed or reported on the A320. Making a second input gives the algebraic sum of the two sidesticks and can have the opposite effect to that intended.

It will all go away when you get your own command.

It should do, but I'm afraid it doesn't. For example, I have to fly with one total and utter spanner every now and again and his concept of being PNF is that he is ready to take over at a moment's notice and (heavily) rides the controls or that if his thinks that you haven't pushed a button he'll do it for you. For instance, if you get a new heading and level, he'll do the one you don't. Time and time again this git ruins your day... Yes, I do tell the obnoxious **** what I'm doing and yes I do tell him to leave things alone... The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.

PM

JC can't be all that good if he has to resort to this nonsense.
No wonder the Captain is concerned.:eek:

Frankly, if I was JC's Captain, JC would be PNF all the time.

It's our company's policy that the PNF follows through below 'circuit height'.

JC

I have had similar problems and can totally understand where you are coming from.

How I personally look at it, is that the Capt is under a lot of pressure, and license is on the line, so they will do what is required to protect that within reason of course.

I also think to myself, that they are experienced Pilots and may see something you don't, it would be better for them to react before its too late.

I would maybe talk to the Capts concerned, and ask them why they are interfering with the controls, if you do not get a satisfactory response, I would as others have said, is approach a nice Training Capt.

Whwn you see the TC, explain at first you don't want to mention any names, but explain what is happening on your flight.

I noticed you said that you are quite experienced, so this may sound harsh, but maybe tell the TC if he wouldn't mind rostering you on some flights with TC, although on record it would not be classed as a training sector, but therefore it would give you an opportunity to discover if you any problems.

If the TC's are happy, then that just proves your case and then you can move up to the next level.

I had the same situation and it still happens with certain Capts, but speaking to other FO's they say exactly the same.

I flew with some TC's and they do not interfere or anything, and I work much better.

I had one normal line Capt, it was a strong 18kts X wind in rain, he told me that he is not going to make any inputs, he will as per SOP, cover the controls, but the rest is up to me, as he said your Command Training starts when you are in the Right Seat.

Without boasting, I did a really nice landing and got in nicely on the Centre Line, and it made me more confident and determined to do better each flight and think for myself.

I wish you the best of luck.

How can I prove them wrong if they always interfere ? (make a dual input)

Now I must repeat for the third time :

How can I achieve the occasional greaser completely on my own (:eek: an FO can actually land a plane on his own ) with some captains who leave me alone then other captains think they always must make a dual input to help me out like I am some type of cripple ? :ugh:


What nonsense ?

Take a read of this extract from the Airbus manuals :

These captains are coming up with the nonsense to start with and doing something in deliberate breach of Airbus manuals. :eek: :=

Who is doing something wrong (nonsense) to start with ? :eek:

FO has every right to be concerned because clearly it is the captain who is doing something wrong here. :confused: :=

If I (the FO as PF) press and hold down my sidestick pushbutton (for not more than 40 seconds), it will prevent any dual input (as it is not encouraged by Airbus). :ok: I would only do this to prevent any nonsense from the captain, which is a dual input :=

If the insecure and underconfident captain wants to take over control, he still can by pressing his sidestick priority pushbutton down. Isn't this the way it is supposed to happen anyway ? Press the button to take over control !

I have not resorted to this "nonsense" yet (to counteract the Captains nonsense). I was speaking hypothetically. The captain has no wonder to be concerned.

Now if my captains are coming up with this nonsense, and I should not react with my own nonsense (as some say), should I report these captains now or just put with it (with their non-standard ways) ? :ugh:

Maybe if you were my captain doing this to me, I would report you. Just because you are captain it does not mean you can do fly with own non-standard techniques.

Well, it certaily looks as though JC is balanced...a chip on both shoulders.:}
Perhaps he believes he is somehow a better pilot than the Captains he flies with.
IF this was so, I'm sure the airline might consider a command assessment.

What a strange and weird company policy. Has your company experienced more than usual pilot total incapacitation in the circuit area that would dictate the precaution of both pilots on the controls simultaneously?:ok:

Dual inputs are monitored by ACAM in your airline certainly,your ops must be aware of pilots who abuse the dual input.
Meanwhile,you may include in your brief that you accept if your capt takes over control by clearly stating so if in doubt on app/landing.
This mayhelp.

Are these capt junior ones? Hours on left?

I had this exact issue come up once with a Capt while flying as a new hire on a T Prop airliner. I found it extremely disconcerting and talked to the Captain who replied that he always "helped" the FO's on landing and was not going to change how he ran "his" airplane. I then raised the issue with the CP who was surprised and shocked at what was going on. The result was a memorandum that gave clear direction that Capt's were not to make any control inputs without first making the "I have control call". The Captain in question eventually left the company as he was about to be demoted for general incompetence.

Bottom line is you are either PF or PNF , there are no SOP's for "Pilot flying a little bit". This practice is completely unacceptable and as was noted can lead to unexpected aircraft reactions, particularly inn FBW control systems.

411A , I am betting you never shadow the controls as you have enough skills and experience to know how far to let an FO go and when the line is crossed just take full control. If when acting as a TRE you observed a Captain "help" an FO with unannounced control inputs, what would you do ?

Yes, thanks, I agree. After more thought and from reading the replies here, I will never do it, nor have I ever done it before.

Two wrongs do not make a right. :=

It was tongue in cheek.

I do not believe this at all, nor did I ever try and portray this belief. I apologise if did.

Just because I raise concern regarding the behaviour of some captains does not automatically mean that I think that I am better than them.

I admit that I am not ready to be a captain yet, however I am competent enough to be able to land an aeroplane on my own without interference.

I am just annoyed at captains who like to interfere with my landings, which is a big "MUST NOT DO" according to Airbus.

Now back to the original question, how to ideal with this "safety" issue ?

I don't like to dob in my mates (report fellow workers to the company), however from the responses here, it looks like some captains might be offended if I directly express my concern to them.

Obviously some captains (who think they know better than the manuals) think this is their "right".

Looks like I might just have to quietly put up with it.

You would win that bet, I never interfere, unless a dire situation is developing.

Suggest that he find somewhere else to work.

- do you have issues with our suggestions?

They have every right to cover the controls at critical stages of flight, but then every PNF should do this. They shouldn't make dual inputs unless they have stated they have control and you have responded.

I would without doubt bring this up with the captain(s) in question. They may have a reason for making inputs and it is their right to take control at any time. The safety implications of dual inputs in the flare and at any time in flight have been covered by BOAC and others already in the thread. I wouldn't "quietly put up with it". If they are making dual inputs without taking control it is a safety problem and you should deal with the issue positively, firstly with a cordial and polite conversation with the skipper.

As an aside it can be frustrating to fly with a Captain who perhaps lacks confidence in you as a co-pilot and acts in a way that you perceive limits your ability to think and fly in the manner you are accustomed to. These guys exist in every airline. I have found the closer you get to the LHS, the more you put yourself in their position, and it gets easier to understand why some skippers act in this way. It is not a slur on your character or ability. Ultimately it is their command and their responsibility, and is just part and parcel of life as an F/O. We all get the chance to move across to the LHS eventually.

This scribe was the instructor on the simulator panel when pilots from various foreign airlines were being assessed for command slots with a Japanese low cost operator. There were two check pilots from that airline giving instructions in limited English and standing behind the two pilots being tested. My job was to reposition the sim as needed and fail an engine when directed.

First requirement was a take off, and normal circuit and landing. The PNF in the RH seat was a chatterbox and obsessed with continual prompting, cajoling, and basically non-stop "helping" the PF all the way around the circuit. Such was his rate of gabble, the Japanese had no hope of understanding what he was saying. It must have driven his fellow countryman who was PF in the LH seat, around the bend. Both were eastern Europeans

The PF did a very long downwind leg and subsequently undershot to blazes while disregarding GPWS warnings of below glide slope. In short it was pretty lousy flying.

The two check pilots whose English as I said was extremely limited, said they thought the PNF had given excellent support and assessed his verbal diarrhoea as example of very good CRM.

Of course it was obvious they didn't understand one bloody word the PNF was on about, but the fact that he gesticulated freely and talked non-stop until touch-down, pleased them enormously. He won a command slot but didn't last too long. I suspect his yakking got on other crew members' nerves.

JC
I think you should relax about the hands and feet being on the controls - it makes the R/T easier and allows immediate takeover in the event of incapacitation. It is a requirement in some airlines that PNF (whether Capt or F/O) has a hand on the sidestick and feet (lightly) on the rudder pedals.. It is actually Airbus policy for PNF, though you won't find it in FCOM or FCTM at the moment...

Dual input is another matter entirely and you are right to raise the issue - full takeover of control is the only correct way to handle the situation.

I always recall the well-worn RAF QFI brief for the student's first night dual:

"Night flying is just like day flying really, except the controls feel heavier":)

John Citizen,
Yes it can be annoying but never do anything to compromise safety out of frustration or revenge.If he wants control,let him have it.And never snitch.Speak to him face to face like a man.Fight your own battles son.And when youre Captain,dont make his mistakes.Unnecessary dual input is a sign of an insecure Captain.

John Citizen,
Besides it affecting your peace of mind, it puts you under pressure to prove your competence each time you fly. Whereas, your PIC is refusing to see your state, you must be aware of it and may at times be affected by it. Watch out for stress and its ill-effects.

BOAC is so right about the fact of one pilot always flying the aircraft. Never hand over control to anyone until you're sure he has taken it over. Re JC's problem it really depends on company policy. However if PNF is guarding the controls at critical stages it should never interfere with your handling. If he's not happy with your flying he should take control by pressing the takeover Pb (in an Airbus) and stating that he has control. There should NEVER be a dual input on the controls as the inputs are added by the system

If your Capt is not happy with your flying he should tell you but not interfere in your handling. He always has the right to take over for any or indeed no reason if he so wishes. If he continues to interfere then talk to someone about it. In my experience these Capts do not have the confidence that they should have in their F/Os - always assuming the F/O is doing the job properly!

If this happens to most First Officers with most captains at your outfit you have an organizational problem. I would go to the standards guy.

If this happens to you (only) with most captains there is something you are doing that is generating that (wrong) response. I would talk with a friendly TC, ask to fly with him and find out if you could do things differently (flare earlier?, etc)

If this happens to you with just a couple of captains. They have a problem, I would hand over control (but not during the flare) as suggested.

When you are next in the sim ask to perform a toga 10 as a late take over from a mishandled landing. I think you will find it quite enlightening, in the airbus it is very hard. You may find a new sympathy for the captains.

Having said all that dual input is a real no no in the airbus for the reasons already mentioned. In my outfit it will be picked up by FDM and a friendly but firm phone call will ensue.

No need for dual control touch...
 

Why ever would the PM need to "follow through" on the controls by having his feet touching the pedals and having his paw touching the control stick/yoke/wheel..? With feet on the floor, how far would that be from the rudder/brake pedals...6 inches, 12 inches? How many milliseconds would it take to be on the pedals if necessary? How far would your hand be from the stick/yoke/wheel...? How many milliseconds would it take to grab the stick/yoke/wheel if necessary?

Now and then I would see an F/O place his hand(s) on the wheel [B747] during turbulence in cruise; and I would ask him if he was "helping" the autopilot negotiate the inputs; I tell him that if he wants to keep his hands on the wheel that he would have to disconnect the autopilot and fly manual, because I would want to know who's flying the airplane. The usual answer would be that he was only having his hand on the wheel in case the A/P were to disconnect. Gee...it's the same story: How many milliseconds would it take to grab the wheel if the A/P were to disconnect?

Gee Glueball,

Isn't that a bit pedantic?

I can tell you it's not just fo's putting their hands on the wheel (and throttles) during turbulence. Captains do the same.

Some would call it reflex, others might call it airmanship. Especially the 747 autopilot/autothrust system isn't the best in dealing with turbulence.

Going back to the original issue, I found that changing fleet from boeing to airbus would make some skippers a bit twitchy, because on the boeing they could "feel" what the fo was doing and limit any excessive inputs if required, but on the bus he can obviously not feel what's happening as his stick isn't moving (so to speak:}). So maybe that's a factor?

PS. By the way Glueball, if you "want to know who's flying the aircraft" then maybe you should consider looking at your FMA's in front of you. They've got some great info

JC, why don't you just wait until you've shut down and then ask him if there was anything wrong with your approach and landing.

If he says no you can then ask him why he felt that he had to interfere.

If he says yes you can ask him if that was the reason he felt he had to interfere. (you can be a bit more diplomatic though)

You never know, he might not be aware that he is doing what he is and instead of dropping him in it with the senior trainers you may just help him too.

Blimey! Talk about a stuck record! I suggest we leave it to JC to 'sort out' since he does not really appear to have responded to several good suggestions so far? See post #21 18 Jan 2011.

Horse and water comes to mind.

Hello pot, kettle calling...:rolleyes:

Thanks for all your good suggestions

From the A320 FCOM:

FLIGHT CONTROL TAKE-OVER
Because of the nature of fly by wire and Sidestick systems, PNF control inputs to correct the PF inputs are not recommended. If take-over becomes necessary during flight, the PNF clearly announces "I HAVE CONTROL" and assumes control of the aircraft. If required, the Sidestick Priority Pushbutton is pressed and held until the transfer of control is clearly established.

We have a FOQA event for dual control inputs and the results are reported in regular FOQA Reports. Sometimes it is a crew (captain) contact to find out why. Sometimes it is line-indoc, sometimes not, but the matter is addressed as it is considered a serious operational matter. It is abundantly clear in the FCOM: dual inputs on an Airbus are a no-no.

PJ2

Not at all. I think Glueball is absolutely right. I cannot imagine anything that looks so idiotic (sometimes seen it on old flying movies with poncy actors in the cockpit) than the automatic pilot in control and a pilot "following" with his sweaty mitts grasping the wheel in eager anticipation he may have to save the aeroplane fron crashing.:ok:

sounds a little dangerous...and with an Airbus jet, absolutely ridiculous:confused:

only one pilot should be flying the airplane...the other monitoring and assisting

You've never flown an Airbus have you, nor one that without an bloody warning suddenly goes into FLARE mode at 500ft AGL.

WRT the original thread question, I guard the stick for TO and LDG in case of:

1. FO (PF) incapacitation (subtle or otherwise)
2. If the FO actions are obvious that he's going to do something that will get me fired.
3. If he's in the process of doing something that will get me fired.

In all cases I call "I HAVE CONTROL" simultaneously pushing the little red button.

Just to be sure, and to be clear: My F/O will not be "following me through" by touching the wheel [B747], touching the rudder pedals, or be touching the thrust levers when I am flying the sector. :ooh: