Happened last night here on the Fylde Riviera.

Someone with a green laser purposely and directly focussed the flightdeck of a 737 on finals.

Be sure this was from 'Cooksons' area of Lytham Industrial estate, nothing to do with the Illuminations.

Having been targeted inbound to LPL last week I thought how nice it would have been to open a hole in the aircraft and let out one of those fancy laser guided devices that would have really spoilt the tw@ts evening. I can but dream.

CJ:
No, because it is not a simple answer.

For obvious reasons it is very difficult to do research into the flux levels required to permanently damage human retinas. The best we can do is to look at industrial accidents, and work backwards to try and figure out where the thresholds lie - however due to the low numbers of incidents this does not produce accurate data. Also most of the work has been into non-visible wavelengths, as they are far more common in industrial contexts.

The best efforts of the industry and regulators have led to the laser Safety Classes (Laser safety - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which I wrote about on a previous post. The best models so far work on the assumption that permanent damage to the retina is thermal, so is a combination of flux level, wavelength and time.

Given the difficulty in aiming a laser at an aircraft (even for the military this has proved insurmaountable so far), it is almost impossible for the beam to be held on your eyeball for long enough to do thermal damage to your retina. You are talking milliseconds if not microseconds of exposure. Plenty of time to dazzle you, to leave afterimages, to disorient you. But not enough to cause permanent damage.

S.

Sorry about the wildly inaccurate moon numbers in the last post. The perils of trying to write this stuff from memory.

So let's do a calculation.

For a handheld laser pointed at an aircraft, let's work on the assumption that the eyeball is expose to the beam for 1/1000th of a second.

For visible light, for 1ms, the Maximum Permitted Exposure (MPE) flux is 0.01 W/cm2. (From IEC 60825)

For a laser with a beam angle of 1.5mrad (i.e. a very good narrow beam), the beam will spread by 3 feet for every 1000 feet travelled.

To make the maths easier, I'll round that to a 1m beam at 1000 feet.

Your pupil is defined at 0.39 cm2 = 0.000039 m2, so you will get 0.000012 (0.0012%) of the beam in your eye.

Working that backwards that means you will need 0.0256W of flux into your eyeball to cause damage, which will need a 2066W laser on the ground.

Now a 2kW laser is a bit beyond even ebay.

Or have I got the maths wrong again.

Simon.

the final result . . . . . . . .
 

Why are we discussing whether there is permanent retinal damage or not ?

If, as a result of dazzle, after-images or disorientation in a pilot, especially at the low levels often involved, an accident occurs . . . . . . well, who knows how many people would have permanent damage, to retinas and everything else as well !

If a 737 pilot experiences a laser incident on take-off what is the most prudent action to take? (1) Land immediately and have the pilot cleared by medical professionals before continuing? (2) Do a self-assessment and continue on to destination then be checked by a medical professional?

I’m all for number 1…

time is a good healer . . . . . .
 

First words should be : "You have control" .

The aeroplane is still 100% sound, the other crew member is flying it safely, and the dazzle effects (or whatever) will subside in a relatively short time.

Report the incident to ATC: yes.

Emergency return to departure airfield (heavy with fuel, etc) : NO.

And again:
BBC NEWS | Scotland | Edinburgh, East and Fife | Probe after laser dazzles pilot

AMC and PPL

I don’t think so as that’s not the safest response. (1) You have no idea exactly how much damage the crewmember has sustained if any. (2) Returning to land immediately in a 737 is no big deal (3) if any further incidents/accidents occur you and your company is on the legal hook big time

fair point, but . . . . . . . .
 

Indeed, but
General consensus from throughout the thread is that it's very likely to be minimal, and temporary, from most of the lasers currently available and being used by yobs for this purpose.

Awaiting more views on this from others actually doing the job (I'm not ! ).

Well, here's a first hand acount.

I got l@zered tonight going into LCY.

saw a green light moving about down on my left side. Suddenly it 'flashed' in a way that to me seemed to say that it had been pointed straight at me (us actually as the FO saw it too).

It did no harm but we reported it and the cops attended after pax got off.

:ooh::rolleyes:

Looks like Edinburgh is fast becoming 'laser alley'


23.10.08
"A police investigation has been launched after pilots landing two planes in Edinburgh Airport were dazzled by a green laser. Both planes landed safely. These latest incidents follows a similar incident last month.
The captain of a cargo plane from Aberdeen was targeted by the beam while he was landing, which caused the plane to drop 400ft on Tuesday. Half an hour later the laser was aimed at an easyjet Airbus landing at 22:00 from Stansted. It is the sixth incident in recent months.
A Police spokesman said: ‘Police are investigating an incident that happened at about 22:00 on Tuesday night, where a laser light was shone at two aircraft as they approached Edinburgh Airport. The light, which was thought to have emanated from the Leith area of Edinburgh, dazzled the pilot of one of the aircraft, which was a cargo plane"

Sadly, it appears that the authorities in UK are still not taking these attacks seriously.


BBC NEWS | England | Suffolk | Pilot dazzler avoids being jailed

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared.../news_logo.gif
Pilot dazzler avoids being jailed

A man who shone a laser pen at a police helicopter, dazzling the pilot, has received a suspended sentence.
Glen Porter, 20, of St Augustine's Road, Ipswich, admitted using the laser pen from an Ipswich nightclub car park.
The town's crown court heard how the pilot, who was searching for a missing child, had to take a sharp turn because of a "green and blinding light".
Porter, who had admitted endangering an aircraft, received a 20-week jail term, suspended for 18 months.
Cannabis warning
The court heard Porter, who pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing, had smoked cannabis shortly before the offence on 27 April and had been in hospital four times for a mental health problem brought on by use of the drug.
Judge John Devaux said: "It's quite plain what the consequences of this could have been, both to the occupant or occupants of the helicopter and to those on the ground."
He said Porter, who bought the pen on internet auction site eBay, had avoided being jailed immediately because the court did not want to "interfere" with his rehabilitation.
But the judge warned him the sentence would be enforced if he was caught in possession of a laser pen or cannabis within the next 18 months. Ebay has since stopped selling certain types of laser pen.

Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | England | Suffolk | Pilot dazzler avoids being jailed

Published: 2008/10/27 12:35:30 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

Cures for the l@zer epidemic
 

It sounds like arrivals over British urban areas are seeing this more and more often. Even if it is simply a larger reporting fraction, the consequences for safety are very significant. I am sure the constabulary are up to their ears, but I can think of several routes for them to get a result in finding the perpetrators. The kind of idiot that would do this must be up to all manner of other stuff that makes their neighbours' lives miserable, and getting them off the streets must be a good thing.

Location of a l@zer at night is difficult without images. Unless you see the beam and can collar the user on the spot.

1) Photos from the attacked aircraft would be useful, but I don't think it's realistic to expect a crew to grab a picture of the l@zer when they have plenty of normal work to do. Also, looking straight down the beam would not give as much position information as seeing it from the side. Nevertheless, a simple wide-angle infinite-focus camera with a multi-frame shooting mode (phone?) in the cockpit could probably give the police a good idea where to look.

2) CCTV cameras are aimed all over high streets. Maybe PC Big Brother could spare a few wide angle cameras to point up and around approach paths, to record the light show from different positions. If a l@ser's bright enough to dazzle, then it should be seen off-axis in scattered light. Comparing the images from a few cameras should get a 10-100-m accurate launch position.

Dedicated wide-angle video monitoring of the approach path to city airports from a few cameras spread out along 4-5 miles could give this kind of information too.

3) Or arm PCs with cameras and ask them to take pictures of beams they see, and note position and time. Even appeals to the public to snap beams with their phones, and record where and when, might help.

Like (2) this would give forensic evidence, not real time detection, but in some cases the police officer could get lucky and see or find the laser start point.

Of course, in all these cases, someone's got to do the geometry to extract the evidence.

4) As the Teeside case shows, a police helicopter, with excellent cameras is probably the best way to home in on the perpetrator. Given the potential danger of dazzling l@sers, along with a shared interest in flight safety, police helicopter crews would hopefully be willing to break off whatever they're doing to help, and be the fastest and most skilled way to gather prompt evidence and get convictions.

I presume operators groups and BALPA are lobbying to have this issue taken seriously nationwide, and to put a priority on police resources to respond to l@zer reports before the perpetrators get bored with the game.

In the cockpit: I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty confident there would be no lasting damage. Consciously look away and you should be OK, and bear in mind the subconscious natural tendency to track your eyes to a bright light.

A man who shone a laser pen at a police helicopter, dazzling the pilot, has received a suspended sentence.

"Glen Porter, 20, of St Augustine's Road, Ipswich, admitted using the laser pen from an Ipswich nightclub car park.

The town's crown court heard how the pilot, who was searching for a missing child, had to take a sharp turn because of a "green and blinding light".

Porter, who had admitted endangering an aircraft, received a 20-week jail term, suspended for 18 months.

Cannabis warning

The court heard Porter, who pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing, had smoked cannabis shortly before the offence on 27 April and had been in hospital four times for a mental health problem brought on by use of the drug."
bbc


I would hazard the mental health problems were present before use of the cannabis. Sentence not long or servere enough.

hear, hear . . . . . . ! !
 

Totally agreed . . . . . on both those points.

"suspended sentence"

When an earth is going on, what deterrent does that show, when will the judiciary wake up.

Nick.

as a green l@zer "user"
 

I use a green 5mW laser to educate my kids about astronomy - I make damned sure there are no airplanes in the field of vision at the time.

My kids (twins aged 5) love to see the e.g. "there is Orion" (pointing with laser pointer).

Should I be banned from doing this?

I'm sure this post will be followed by a load of "how did you know there were no airplanes in the area" posts, but I'm open to suggestions. I do try hard to make sure I'm not shining a light into the sky when there may be a pilot up there. We're well off any flightpaths here in the sticks. I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Legitimate use of l@zers in the sky
 

adamnaylor #120,

You're far from alone in using 5mW class pointers - #41 does, and my #63 also describes uses of potentially dangerous 10-100W yellow lasers by professional astronomers to measure and correct their images for atmospheric turbulence (certified and regulated by the FAA in the US).

If you can see an aircraft's strobes, then the crew could see your laser. I think we should leave it to you to use your judgement and turn the laser off or away if and when you see an aircraft. Pointers are used to point for a crowd. That means witnesses, and so while you should keep a lookout for aircraft, you're not going to be in trouble for legitimate use.

Human spotters with dead-man's handle kill switches are the safety system for telescopes' 10-100W sounding lasers: if strobes are seen within 25 degrees of the beam, then the light is shuttered immediately: see http://www2.keck.hawaii.edu/optics/l...cs/kaon361.pdf for one set of protocols.

Added thread link, Oct 30th: best discussion of the appearance and risks I've seen so far in
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/320314-l-ser-searchlight-attacks-aircraft-incl-prison-sentences-offenders.html#post3704281.

Credit to the site for tying it in at the bottom of this thread.

I assume the blinding effect of scattering from scratches on the windows is less of an issue for airliners with glass cockpit windows than for the police helicopters described on the linked thread.

Seem to remember posting two to three years ago on this subject,unfortunately being shot down in flames by someone with a little knowledge of lasers.
Like TheotherSimon as my avatar suggests I work on lasers. 30 years experience of which 18 years purely on medical lasers. At the moment on lasers for the treatment of diabetics. So in contact with most of the top guys in the field.
Pan retinal photocoagulation uses on standard lasers a power of around 120 -220mW at an exposure of 0.10S(edited wrong exposure time,not 0.01S,sorry) to achieve a blanching effect(dependent on pigmentation) inside the eye for diabetic retinopathy.This is a focussed beam at about 300-400 microns.
As TheotherSimon says and his maths is not wrong beam divergence at that distance comes into play,plus the 'blink reflex' of the eye is also a factor.
Not in any way condoning these idiots as it must be a distraction. Studies done at Dundee university after the spate of attacks on bus drivers concluded no permanent damge was done to the eye, and the distance between laser,drivers mirror and driver is a lot less than most of the 'air attacks'.

any more views . . . . . . . ?
 

Still no more responses to the question / answer posed in posts # 109 and # 110 . . . . . . . .

lasernigel seems to be concurring that serious or permanent damage is very unlikely. Do others agree that report to ATC, but continue flight once airborne is prudent ?

I was "l@zered" twice on short finals in 4 days 3 weeks ago...

ATC and Police informed both times.

No doubt the yobs are still at large.

:{

I'm pleased to hear what lasernigel says although I still won't take any chances...

SR, where did you get done?

l@sered in Mali
 

2 sepparate SIA aircraft were green l@sered on short finals at Mali - Maldives last month. The l@ser was used by someone on a boat.
Seems to be happening all over the show.

Adam, I am an astronomer too and a pilot. Absolutely no problem using lasers as long as you just make sure you are steering clear of aeroplanes. If you can't see aeroplanes well, the effect of the laser is unlikely to be severe. You really have to be specifically targeting the cockpit to really hit the windows, so idly pointing out objects in the sky is realistically no danger whatsoever.

Earlier this week, Mr Ben Vout, unemployed, from Clevleand, UK, appeared before magistrates court charged with endangering two aircraft, a KLM flight into Durham Tees Valley and the police helicopter which was dispatched to search for him.

The court decided that the matter was so serious that it would need referral to Crown Court. I dont want to concern Mr Vout unduly, but Mr Big Bubba from cell 39A finds him quite attrractive.

Some little git decided it would be fun to shine one at our flight out of LPL tonight. Thankfully I wasn't looking directly at it at the time, but I was shocked at how powerful and bright it was (the entire cockpit lit up and it was quite dazzling). We informed ATC immediatley, and I really hope they catch the culprit, before something nasty happens. :mad:

I was green-l@sered last night landing in Muscat , 2nd time in a month . The Police are keen to catch the person and I am helping them with coordinates etc .
The problem , as usual , is the open sale of the l@zers in various outlets.

@Rhythm Methode
We too got "l@sered" while on radar vectors into London City on tuesday. At 4000ft overflying a village we noticed a green light and seconds after it was directed at our cockpit and following us for a time. Allthough the light was moving erraticly all ver the cockpit (due to the enlarged effect of an unsteady hand), the spread of the ligth at that altitude was enough to keep the cockpit in a nice shade of green all the tim ethe ligth was pointed at us. We were also amazed by the brightness, allthough as far as we were concerned, it did not harm our sight, but then again, we did not look straight into it.

Offcourse reported it to ATC, but since it came from the middle of a village (which name I do not know), I do not have any doubt nothing will happen and that green light will be seen more often. It probably was an "innocent" "oops-I-did- not-know-it-had-that-effect" thing, but people should know better then pointing a laser (of any light) at an aircraft....

e-Bay restricting sale of "Powerful" l@s3rs from tomorrow
 

e-Bay have announced :

Of course the more powerful types can stil be purchased while on holiday and be brought back home in a suitcase of course, but at least e-Bay seem to be showing a responsible attitude :D

Meanwhile I would suggest that all pilots subject of such "attacks" that are of concern to them, report the details to ATC, asking that the information is passed to local Police - after all the offence of "Endangering an aircraft" is an "Arrestable offence" which the Police should be keen to deal with ( and improve their detection figures ;) ).

Now here's a novel idea - why don't ATC collate all these reports and pass them on to the local Police Air Support Unit - who are the most likely Police department to take notice and do something about it - especially if there is a pattern of attacks that can be identified ( e.g. at a certain time from the same location etc ) :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg

I had a laser pointer shone in my eyes whilst driving my car at night. Not only does it "temporarily" blind you it chuffing hurts!

I still had problems seeing properly the next morning but the effects soon wore off.

Adam, how did you know there were no planes in the area, etc..?

;)

What's needed is a decoy aircraft with a steerable and powerful laser on it. When problems are reported, get the decoy to fly an approach and if it gets illuminated from the ground, automatically target its own laser on the source and give the perp a taste of what it's like to be on the receiving end.

...and perhaps drop something on the perpetrator that feels like a plane crash - perhaps that will have these idiots running to mummy..

It needs new legislation
A) The sale of these items needs to be restricted including auction sites, with the capability they have,something similar to firearms laws.
B) Regarding the treatment of the people who choose to aim these at airliners; After all, what can they hope to achieve by doing this, erh.. bring the airliner down.
Therefore minimum 20 years, no parole to life.
It is in effect,attempted mass murder - and sentencing should reflect that.

> how did you know there were no planes in the area, etc..?

See and avoid works well under the conditions described: astronomy -- night time, dark-adapted, clear sky.

Aircraft lights stand out quite well against that background, and you can hear them coming early enough to close the shutter on the time exposure to avoid having those red and green and white streaks across the picture.

I doubt someone's figured out how to fly silent unlit gliders at night.

Astronomy amateurs wanting to be careful can get the aircraft navigation maps
Area Control Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
to make sure you're not in a regular flight path, and those will also give you the areas where flight is controlled, a good way to tell where to expect airplanes regularly.

Handy site:
AeroPlanner.com

(Purple on the map marks laser operations for aircraft to avoid -- up to 60,000 feet elevation in this example)

Cue Crocodile Dundee: "You call that a laser? THIS is a laser ..."

8/7433 - NM .. LASER RESEARCH SUNSPOT, NM LASER RESEARCH WILL BE CONDUCTED AT APACHE POINT OBSERVATORY ... AT AN ANGLE OF 090 DEGREES FROM THE SURFACE, PROJECTING UP TO 60000 FEET. AVOID AIRBORNE HAZARD BY 5 NAUTICAL MILES. THIS BEAM IS INJURIOUS TO PILOTS/AIRCREWS AND PASSENGERS EYES. ALBUQUERQUE /ZAB/ ARTCC, 505-856-4500, IS THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 31 OCT 16:39 2008

this is just ridiculous . . . . . !
 

I know that they change from time to time, but why can the PPRuNe powers that be not prevent the adverts I can see ON THIS PAGE right now . . . . .

. . . . . yes, you've guessed it - - - for LASER PENS, from E-BAY.

Example Associating adverts with the context of the discussion is all very well, but have the owners of this site no scruples AT ALL ?????

can you really believe this . .. . . . . ?
 

Within the last few days moderators have actually deleted posts in the "Medical and Health" forum, because (allegedly) they contained adverts for a "colour blindness cure". I say 'allegedly' because such a cure is almost certainly impossible and out of the question.

But then on this thread (of all threads ! ) this is what is allowed

Maxson Technologies - Lasers, Security Technology, and just plain fun stuff!

Disgusting, shameful, greedy, money-grabbing PPRune bosses - - this is pure and simple DOUBLE STANDARDS.

I'll see myself out . . . . . . . presumably the ban will not be long in coming.

"As advertised on PPRuNE"

I spotted that too and thought it inappropriate, though I suspect the ads are auto-generated to associate with phrases or words in the text.

It's not easy to control/specify or moderate those Google ads, that's why a forum I Mod & help Administer doesn't have them... we have much less members than here with much lower wage earners yet find that we can still raise the funds in a day or two after a quick call for donations every year... it's nice to be independent of commercial pressures... ah well!