Previous thread, with more technical info. : L@ser attcks

I could be completely wrong here so feel free to correct me, but are we not talking about something completely different to the lecturer's laser pointer?

Those narrow beam devices have been used to attack bus drivers etc at short range, but I would doubt they are powerful enough or can be directed accurately enough to be more than the briefest flicker in the eyline of a pilot in flight.

There is obviousle something else out there that is far more dangerous and has no obvious 'practical' application.

I remember driving home one evening, not quite dark, and suddenly one of the large reflective roadsigns ahead lit up a very unnatural and vivid green colour. Not just a dot, but the whole roadsign! A little further on the same thing happened again and I realised that someone in the car in front was firing off something through the windscreen. I suspect this is what we are worrying about here?

theothersimon, Tarq57 and others...
 

I think your comments are a little out of date. These muppets are using items like this:

300mW 300 MW ADJUST FOCUS GREEN LASER POINTER TORCH NO4 on eBay, also, Laser Pointers, Gadgets, Consumer Electronics (end time 01-Sep-08 15:05:28 BST)

Freely available from ebay, and as you can see - a little more powerful than you suggest.

These idiots need to be prosecuted and put in prison. There is no valid reason for a normal person owning one of these.

Video here: YouTube - Green laser - 300mW Hulk Ultra lighting cigarette & matches

Thats how powerful they are, they aren't normal laser pointers.

Not your average pointer..
 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._distances.gif

These high-power ( > 1mW ) green laser devices are actually far too powerful to be used as 'pointers' in presentations or lectures, as they are so powerful! The reflected light energy is blinding to the presenter!! (similar to the effect on the road signs mentioned).

I'm not sure of their initial concieved use, be it military or otherwise but I do know they have found a use within the amateur astronomy circuit .where they were used as 'star pointers' (to align telescopes and to point out stars to others). They are falling out of favour however, due to the issues surrounding pilot blinding incidents.

The only real way to stop this IMHO, would be to reclassify any laser pointer with a power output > 5 mW as a form of potentially offensive weapon, perhaps introducing a licencing scheme such as exists for firearms to allow for legitimate uses.

For more info than you could possibly want on lasers, see Sam's Laser FAQ: Welcome Page

Banned in the UAE
 

Don't try taking any type of laser into the UAE as they are banned. they make no distinction between types (1,2,3,4). Pen lasers or other similar laser pointy devices in hold or hand baggage will be confiscated and your name (passport details) will be added to the bad boy list!

First recorded 'attack' by green laser in Abu Dhabi was reported by an Etihad crew in 2006 on approach to AUH. The crew did the right thing and reported the incident to ATC who turned out the local police, no one was apprehended. The incident was reported in the local press about a week later and within a couple of days of the newspaper story numerous sightings of green and red lasers were being reported around the Emirate. Seems the local boys had discovered a new plaything! Seems things have gone quiet these days thankfully.

Unaware that they were doing anything wrong the GCAA gave out 'pen lasers' to anyone who visited their stand at an aviation exhibition in the UAE earlier this year! Boy that was embarassing!

Did King Harold lose and eye to a green or red laser, maybe I'm getting my history confused?:)

It's ludicrous that these things are legal at all in most countries. What gets me is that even a 125mW laser may or may not light cigarettes but it will still pop a balloon with ease. They should be treated like guns, only a person with a valid licence after an evaluation should be allowed to buy such things.

A police spokesman said a 19-year-old man had been arrested and charged with two coun
 

Nice, two counts =5 years inside should send the right message.............:ooh::ooh:

Ban this ban that bla bla:sad:

The basic rule with diode lasers is this. The more powerful the beam, the quicker it expands in diameter. The beam is focused such that at a very small distance from the aperture, you might be able to light a cigarette...or melt a hole in a black plastic bag. Prior to, and beyond this small area...the beam will NOT light a cigarette nor melt black plastic.

We must not succumb to the image of the "Star Trek" type phaser beam....they all disperse with the square of the distance away. As the knowledgeable poster on Page one said....the best lasers shot at the moon are 5 times the moon's diameter when they arrive there. If you were to look at the Earth from the moon (directly into the beam) you would most certainly NOT notice it.....it is that diverged.

For aircraft.....the beam operate the same way. It is very much wider (and hence weaker) than the millimeter beam width at the aperature. Combine this with topside cockpit windows, layed down at 45 degrees or more to the vertical, makes the beam pale in comparison to the landing lights on your wingtips.

IMO, people should not aim their lasers at planes and helicopters....in the rare instance where the impinging beam might refract in such a way as to briefly distract the pilot flying. And as such I do not think the "hang 'em high" attitude needs to be taken in light of the well known facts and physics of collimated(sp) monochrome light.

Actually not always true, at least at the low end of the power ratings in my opinion. Many of the more powerful DPSS lasers have much better divergence (e.g. less than 1.5 mrad) than a 5mw pointer. Some of the cheaper brands like New Wish use plastic optics so they do spread more regardless of power.

For all you rocket scientists, here's a technical discussion of laser beam divergence:

Melles Griot Optics Guide - Beam Waist and Divergence

I have to raise the B.S. flag on this gem of knowledge as well. Five times the moon's diameter would imply a beam divergence of 2.5 degrees, the astronomical lasers (and even laser pointers) do a lot better than that. From a recent article about the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment:

From: Anthonares Blog Archive Bouncing Laser Beams Off of the Moon

Not that it matters - but the best lasers could make a spot on the moon about 2 km in diameter.

see this blog

This is the internet! Beware "knowlegeable" [sic] posters! :suspect:

Some might think this a bit extreme in these tree hugging,bunny s*agging days,but I would subject these scroates to a dose of their own laser device and then ask them to walk a 4" wooden beam.............which just happened to be suspended between two extremely high buildings:ok: Post the results on Youtube and then see if it happens again.Maybe I should start a website....Letsstopscumbags.com. :D

L@sers
 

Just phoned the Home Office re this problem. L@zers? Pilots? Eye damage? Safety of aircraft? They appear to know nothing about the problem.
However did give me an e-mail address where the issue could be raised with the Government. [email protected] Please write, just sent mine.

Having had one of these lasers targetted at my aircraft this week I can say that they are powerful enough to cause discomfort and distraction at 2,000' with the briefest of exposure. Ban them and prosecute - there is no debate.

Well I own a <1mW green pointer and it is attached too and harmonized with my Celestron C8 SCT, for use in the Astronomical field. I do hope that you are not getting me mixed up those bloody dangerous idiots who both supply and use the above!!:sad:

I Was Wrong, Three Years, Not Two Years.
 

Gentlemen, you may wish to draw this precedent to your legal colleagues.

From the Australian Broadcasting Commision (ABC)

It's time they banned aircraft from flying over areas where construction is taking place. A building has to stay up in the air for a hundred years, and these pontificating pilots want us to believe their needs are greater.

Interesting aside!
 

First time I've read this thread about laser pointers affecting air crew. In my past, I have studied astronomy and there is, rightly or wrongly, a growing trend amongst both amateur and professional astronomers to use laser pointers as an aid to point telescopes at targets in the sky and also to measure stability in the atmosphere.

Just thought it worth pointing out that they may not all be mindless thugs trying to bring us down but instead, unaware of the danger they are causing.

For what its worth, I'm doing my best to bring this danger to the attention of the astronomy community.

Mark.

Hmmmm.... My father used to be a hobbyist holographer twenty-plus years ago. He started out with a 5mW HeNe laser, at the time a tube slightly thicker than a kitchen paper tube roll, about three times as long. He then had a 25 mW HeNe laser which, as the 5 mW one, was in no way portable as connected to a mains PSU. This thing sat on his sand table encased in a rectangular aluminium housing, about 1.5 metres long.

I digress- How is it possible to shine a laser into an aircraft cockpit from below :confused:

How is it possible to accurately aim at the eyes of a pilot, given the width of a laser beam, the movement of the aircraft and, again, the fact that your laser wielder is surely on the ground, whereas the aircraft is in the air :confused::confused::confused:

Finally, a lot of cockpit glass I have seen is decidedly tinted (often veering towards the green?)- Whilst I appreciate there are many different wavelengths of coherent and non-coherent light, does this anti glare tinting (and anti-cosmic ray???) have no dissipating effect?

Maxbert

Maxbert,

1. Cockpit design is arranged to give pilots forward and lateral views of the ground, especially when the aircraft is on approach. How else do you think they land them?

2. You ask how these lasers can be accurately aimed at aircraft? Ask the Chavs that do it!

3. The aircraft windscreen is most definitely NOT tinted and great trouble is taken in design to ensure they are as optically perfect as possible. What you are observing is a little refraction/reflection from the window heating film embedded in the multiple layers making up the cockpit windows.

Make the bloody things illegal, "using them for backyard astronomy?" my @rse!.

"Make the bloody things illegal, "using them for backyard astronomy?" my @rse!."

What an @rse indeed. Pathetic. That is what they are used for you clown!

One or two ppruners seem to be missing the point (if you pardon the pun) here, there is an existing peice of legislation that already covers this offence.

Whether or not the fricking laser is shone into the cockpit, reflected from the windshield, refracted into the cockpit...the individual to$$er who engages in the act of shining the device commits the substantive offence under section 63 of the Air Navigation Order, namely recklessly or negligently acting in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person therein.

The critical part of this legislation that makes it particularly useful in terms of prosecuting these offenders is the fact that their actions do not have to actually produce a dangerous result, and the offender does not need to be on the aircraft to commit the offence. Additionally the actions do not need to be deliberate in terms of ultimate intention either - the legal concepts of recklessness or negligence negate any possible defence such as that pathetic mantra "I didn't know it was dangerous to use a laser..or I was looking for my dog....etc".

Those fools who think it is funny shining lasers, powerful torches, fireworks etc at planes, regardless of their own idiotic perceptions can be arrested by police, charged and placed before the courts. The expert testimony of an aircraft captain who is prepared to stand up in the witness box and state that a laser distracted him from his core function of landing an a/c with lots of slf on board is highly likely to be damning and convincing evidence. Custodial sentences are available to the courts and can be used as punitive / deterrent measures. Whilst each case will be judged on individual merits, there is not a huge amount of legal precedent by which to gauge sentencing. Depending on the individual mode of trial (magistrates court or crown court), those found guilty could end up with a stretch behind bars. I don't think many in the judiciary take a light view of endangering a plane full of people.

The bottom line is simple - anyone with a bit of common sense can see the potential consequences of distracting a pilot at a crucial phase of flight such as landing or t/o. We do not need a debate on the relative strengths of different lasers, or the legitimacy of their designed purposes. We need to take firm action against those individuals who effectively gamble with the safety of aircraft, those on board and those under the flightpath!

On a side issue, I was not surprised that the Home Office were not aware of the available legislation - the ANO is less mainstream legislation (for want of better terminology) and is more likely to fall within the business area of the DFT. The more cynical amongst us may surmise that the legislation was on a memory stick down the back of someones sofa...:ok:

Well they are for sale in the magazine that accompanies the BBC Tv programme "The sky at night" or what ever its called with Patrick Moore.

Although im not a pilot, i have had a laser pointer flashed at me while driving along the A14 at night...Not the nicest experiances for me or my passenger when i performed what was basically an emergency stop from 75mph.

I agree with an earlier poster, do the chav scum with attempted murder on however many counts according to the number of passengers/crew on the plane.

I think that any investigation into a cockpit lasing event would soon ascertain whether it was an accidental strobe by someone using a laser for astronomical purposes or "chav scum" having some sport.

How difficult can it be to issue a laser license to those who have a legitimate reason to possess such a device?

How many ac have been brought down by lasers in comparison to negligent engineering driven by cost and time cutting practices?

Best,

Sicknote:ok:

Hi All... I'm a very soon to be commercial pilot (only 1 exam and a flight test left WOOHOO!) and I'm only flying little things that these laser owner have no interest in but what I really want to know is what is it like to be in the cockpit of an aircraft targeted by these lasers?

I mean how strong are they really and how much do they affect the vision? There have been quite a few of these attacks on the news in Australia and obviously the lasers are stronger than the tiny one I use to play with my kitten but what's it like? Does it blind you? Does it refract through the whole windscreen/cockpit making any sort of vision impossible or can you see if you put your hand in the way of the laser (not that you want to land a jet with one hand but you know what I mean)?

They're surprisingly strong. I saw one as pax when OS457 was targeted on approach to LHR 27L last night. Despite being side on, and thus being much harder to track the aircraft, the glare was incredible and although I experienced no visual sensation it was most uncomfortable. I can only imagine what it must be like seeing these things nose-on from the flight deck where it's easier for the muppets to aim.

(Un)fortunately, I (and I suspect most of the other passengers) got quite a good look :ouch: at the location of the laser here.

Thanks, sounds interesting... and as you suggested not nice if you're up the front. Not something I expect to affect me much as I want to be an instructor flying Cessna 152's for the rest of my life but it's always good to know.

I suspect it's a bit like the pilot who gets his first mag light and shines it up the street to see if it lights up his neighbours house. The pikey probably bought the laser pen (or nicked it) and was looking for the furthest object away in his line of sight that he could light up. The fact it went into the pilots eyes was probably more chance than anything but as it's a continuous beam if he keeps waving it around in the general direction it's going to hit the target, a bit like when you are trying to hose shampoo off the dog when he's running round the garden...or is that just me ???

I've owned a laser pointer (it was a gift) and I own a couple of laser levels. The pointer has been thrown away, getting the dog to chase the little dot around the room was driving him nuts, but I still use the laser levels from time to time. The difference with these particular levels though is that they are designed to strike a straight line over a surface, they wont shine a concentrated dot into anyones eyes no matter how much you waft them round. I've no doubt they could be converted in some way or another to do so but it's probably well beyond the wit of your average Burberry wearer who just wants to light stuff up.

Surely it's not very difficult to legislate against the sale of devices that shine a concentrated laser dot as opposed to a laser line. Devices that shine a laser dot have no real practical pupose in general day to day use, even on a building sight and lecturers don't need to use one, they have managed perfectly well with normal pokey pointers in the past and they can continue to do so. If astronamers want to use them to line up their telescopes then let them apply for a licence to buy and use one, i'm sure they wouldn't be that put out by having to do so.

If astronamers want to use them to line up their telescopes then let them apply for a licence to buy and use one, i'm sure they wouldn't be that put out by having to do so.

Of course that will stop all those who are "unlicensed" from pointing them at you. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

This type of idiotic posting just goes to show what happens when you let people buy their way into the industry!!

The only way to catch them.
 

I am a Police Helicopter Pilot and really your (complainant/Target) only real means of bringing a prosecution against these idiots with the Green lasers or indeed the Red lasers also.
I have suffered numerous attacks over the past ten years since leaving the military.
We kind of ignore them most the time as we have a job to do but appreciate the fact that large fixed planks would have great difficulty in locating or indeed talking Police ground units onto the laser.
Personally I believe in squirting the 10.5 million candle power torch at them. It works for us.
So.
It will normally happen during final approach and as soon as it does inform App/Twr of the attack (which I suggest could not be accidental as they tend to hit you on and off for 30 secs or more).
They will register it as such and will inform the local Police, and all following aircraft into the airport.
If you should be lucky enough to have a Police Helicopter Unit close by then the ATC will almost certainly inform them of the incident.
It is not normal to deploy for a laser attack but they will "keep a close watch on the area" during normal tasks.
That said a KLM on finals into EGNV last week was hit and during a return to base following a task, we managed to see the Green laser as he tried to light us up also.
One arrested, laser confiscated as dangerous weapon, KLM crew interviewed and all paperwork completed within a few hours.
Idiot appeared in court on Teesside Fri 22nd Aug.
It can be dealt with but we need to know.
Maybe the CAA could inform us quicker, post MOR. I doubt it but the local relationship of the ATC and Police crews is very good and is no doubt your best option.
ie. 4 miles on final 23 right side by 2 miles etc. easy.

(Plane hit by laser danger - Gazette Live)

I have not got the result of the court appearance but the last prosecution awarded 4 months detention.

All the very best

Since in this case they did confiscate the l@zer, can you get any information on the type?

I think there's a huge confusion.

There are l@zer "pens" (Class I, up to 1mW) which are useful during lectures (they replace the old flashlight pointers, which projected a little arrow) or, according to one informed amateur astronomer poster on her, can be used for lining up a telescope. They're about as 'dangerous' as a flash-light (think MagLights), and will just dazzle you momentarily from a few metres away. You probably wouldn't even see them from an aircraft, since the optics aren't that good.

There are the l@sers used on building sites, as mentioned earlier. Apart from the l@zer 'levels' (which project a line), there are others which allow you to get an accurate alignment over a few hundred metres. They're slightly more powerful, but still pretty useless for "lighting up" an aircraft.

Then there's the "big stuff" such as used for laser light shows, etc. There we're talking about something like 30mW to 300mW: look at the eBay item mentioned earlier.
Unfortunately those seem to be readily available, and are used as "toys" by chavs, etc. to put spectacular videos on YouTube of burning through chair legs... and also for these "l@ser attacks" on aircraft.

So, Biffer, any chance of clarifying this by giving us an idea of what we're really looking at?
And I would bet it's not a l@zer "pen".

CJ

Google will scare you
 

5mw is the safe pointer limit. Type a larger number followed by mw +l@zer into Google. If you don't know what's available, you'll be surprised.

Home Office on L@zers
 

Had a reply from the Home Office, Offensive Weapons Section, advising me that they are keeping the subject under review. If injury caused by a l@zer pointer then prosecution is possible under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 with maximum penalty of 5 years in prison or an unlimited fine or both. Annoyance is covered under the Public Order Act 1986 with a max penalty of a £1000 fine. The fine for selling these is covered under the General Products Safety Regulations 1994 with max penalty of 3 months imprisonment or a £5000 fine or both. (This also covers Class 3a and Class 4 l@zers as defined by EU law in 9 BS EN 60825 part 1 1994) Trading Standards across the UK have been urged to use their powers under the latter act to remove such articles from sale.
I have replied indicating that imports from abroad are still a threat and any review should include discussion with the CAA and BALPA. I have also indicated that the penalties in other countries are much more severe than those in the UK and that we should follow the example set elsewhere.

It's not just L@sER's that these muppets use, try landing on 27R at LHR on the run up to Nov 5th. Just short of the Q carpark there is a small patch of open ground that the 'Chavs' use as a Ground to Air missile launching pad.

Have to give them their due, they should be sent to the Army, they are getting quite good! Nothing wakes you up on short finals like a rocket bouncing off the underside of the cockpit.

They have also been using their 'L@ser pointers' recently. What do these idiots need with a l@zer pointer anyway? Mugging power point presentations anyone???

As a previous helicopter pilot I have also been illuminated in the past and it can be extremely distracting and therefore dangerous. If we can slam people in jail for talking on their mobiles in their cars and being distracted, surely we can come up with a suitable charge for this?

Gotta love it, back when I was a kid we had no nintendo, internet, computers, games consoles, mobile phones, l@zer pointers, 24 hour rubbish TV (only 3 channels) etc. etc. etc. We made it through the day. Now the 'stock' excuse for these idiots is 'we're only doin it 'cause we're bored Guv, t'aint nowt to do round here' .. Bullsh*t.

Rant over :}

The chances of lengthy custodial sentences being applied to misuse of lasers affecting aviation is very, very slim. My rationale?

The scum that drop or place lumps of concrete or steelwork onto roads and railways hardly ever get charged with:

a) Murder
b) Attempted Murder
c) Manslaughter
d) Possession of an offensive weapon
e) Anything

Things might change if there was a large loss of life but I doubt it. The law at least in the UK is, and continues to be, an ass.

Post 57
 

If we can slam people in jail for talking on their mobiles in their cars and being distracted, surely we can come up with a suitable charge for this?

There is.

La@zers
 

Apparently they can be bought mail order, look at:

wickedlasers.com

Sean

I would call this laser shining incident “youthful high spirits”.

The aircraft landed safely, no damage, no loss of life.

Sure at 19 he should know better.

But I bet we all did stupid stuff at 19 we regretted later.

Do you really think he set off that day thinking “I’ll try and crash an aircraft” I really doubt it.

All the pensioners and eco Nazis would have him chemically lobotomised for this, but he’s probably paying their pensions through taxation; so biting the hand that feeds is not such a good strategy.

Anyway rant over !

This is the answer

ABL YAL 1A Airborne Laser Air Force Technology

They don't like it up em