Astronomy l@zers
 

There are two very distinct classes of l@zers that might be used by
astronomers.

The first is a classroom l@zer pointer used to highlight sights in the
sky for a huddle of people at night, see
5mW Green Laser Pointer for Astronomy.
There's no reason for these to exceed 5mW.

The second is the multi-10W class of yellow l@zers used to produce a
~90-km-high sodium beacon to sample atmospheric turbulence above
a small number of professional observatories. These are always used
with spotters, who cut off the l@zer on sight of aircraft. See,
http://www2.keck.hawaii.edu/optics/l...cs/kaon361.pdf.
These are launched through 20-cm-class telescopes, so they have
finite width, but would definitely hurt. In the US, pointing directions
must also be approved in advance by the USAF to avoid satellite
collisions, and on a typical night there are a handful of windows where
the air force refuses the observatory permission to use the l@ser.

I would be interested to know whether pilots operating near Mounts
Hamilton and Palomar, California and Mauna Kea in Hawaii have noticed
these yellow/orange beams, especially on night-vision goggles. It is very likely that military observatories in Hawaii and the western US use similar
beacons.

These l@zer classes are so distinct in properties, that neither should
interfere with aircraft operations. The first by being no risk, and the second by being turned off if aircraft are near. I am sceptical that an innocent astronomy spotting pointer being scanned from star to star in the sky could be responsible for an aircraft blinding incident, and would expect a court
to see through this as a defense, especially as there's no reason to use
a pointer without a small crowd of witnesses.

I would expect that atmospheric chemistry sounding l@zers and l@zer-show
l@zers would pose more of a risk.

Prison sentence upheld for l@zer louts
 

Some of you may recall a recent thread concerning two oafs who had targeted a l@zer pen at a police helicopter. They came before HH Judge Tudor Owen at Snaresbrook Crown Court who sentenced them to six months custody.

The Court of Appeal recently considered their appeals and dismissed them observing that in the view of their Lordships the case clearly crossed the custody threshold and such a case could not be dealt with by any lesser penalty.

The Court further observed that His Honour Judge Owen "plainly took a great deal of care over this case." In passing sentence the learned judge said the message should go out that people who target helicopters in this idiotic and dangerous way should expect to receive custodial sentences.

The Muppets are still at it!
 

13.09.08
A police investigation is under way after a laser beam was targeted at Aberdeen Airport last night. An airport spokesman told the Press & Journal: ‘There was a report of green laser light being directed onto the airfield from the Overton Garage area.'
Two airport employees reported seeing the light yesterday. Police and airport security staff swooped on the site where the laser light came from – a mile to the north-west of the runway.

A police spokeswoman said: ‘I can confirm we are investigating an incident involving a laser light which occurred at 22:00. Inquiries are at an early stage and are currently on going. But the light was not shone at any aircraft or vehicle.’

I thought the end of this video was something of relevance to the thread - along with lighting things.

Complete watching is encouraged.

YouTube - Green laser - Hulk hand held laser - what can it burn???

Fascinating to see the side bar ads all trying to sell us lasers on this thread:rolleyes:

When you sell your soul to google, there will be pain.

Yep, this one was beside your post on my browser:

The MVPS Hosts File prevents any of these ads displaying. All the pages look normal to me.
(Darn. Now I won't be in the know if I ever want to buy a laser.:})

I use "noscript" within firefox..I also dont see any of that cr@p

The Texas Method
 

Assume that the little green dot is part of the targeting aid on a firearm. Return fire immediately. Self-defense.

And of course a small moral victory will be achieved if everyone reading this thread clicks on a few of those links for companies selling these lasers. These companies have to pay Google for every click through to their website, and Pprune then gets a share of this money from Google ....

There are safety goggles.
Protection Safety Glasses Goggles for 532nm Green laser - eBay (item 220281822768 end time Sep-22-08 07:05:29 PDT)

I guess all cockpits will be equiped with these in the future.

Oh dear!!

This is how dangerous it is!!

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4...indoxp7.th.jpg

ImageShack - Hosting :: [email protected]

Good one theothersimon, thanks for the headsup on lasers :ok:

Just curious about laser attacks.
Would take one good sniper to put (what distance are we talking about) a beam into the pilots eyes? 500-1500m. Please don't crucify me on this post,

I can't comprehend some kid using a 'pen pointer ' causing all so much disruption.

dazdaz,
You have totally missed the point, as have several other posters here.
These are NOT "pen pointers", but l@zers with over a hundred times the power.
We're talking about the kind used for "l@zer light shows", and for professional applications, such as l@zer marking, and industrial laser cutting.
They are feckin' dangerous when not used under controlled conditions.

Unfortunately, they are still being sold as toys!

A local gentleman here has just been fined $1,000 for playing with a laser. He pointed it first at a Jazz flight (Dash 8), and then at a police helicopter that was sent to search for the source of the laser. Didn't think that one through very far. This one wasn't on final approach, but the Dash 8s do come over here relatively low.

Calgary laser flasher gets $1,000 fine

On the face of it, this would "appear" to be a new report today of 2 fresh incidents at Edinburgh....
Exclusive: Police hunt after pilots are blinded with lasers at Edinburgh Airport - The Daily Record

Unfortunate foresight
 

I am hardly blaming the chap for being ( for me ) a generally great author, but it's a sad fact that Tom Clancy foresaw both using hijacked airliners as weapons, and deliberately crashing airliners with a Pilot Incapacitation Laser.

I was going to say the 'authorities' had better start thumbing through his backlist to see what other ideas the nutters think worth a try.

Then I remembered ' The Sum of All Fears' ... For those of you who haven't tried it, the story of acquiring a 'mislaid' aircraft Nuke and transporting it by land to a major stadium & population centre.

I doubt the nuts, be they misguided idiots high on cider, or terrorists, are going to find that one easy, so might be worth looking what other schemes Mr.Clancy thought up.

The ironic thing of is course he is a really patriotic guy, I suspect he'd shoot himself rather than influence one attack; his whole message is pro-defence - also though the lack of political will to supply it until too late.

Just pointing out a trend ?

The man.. (ok he was 19 but so are many soldiers) aimed a laser at an aircraft. he then tried to blind the crew of the police helicopter who were dispatched to try to find him. This isnt high spirits hes an arsehole who knew exactly what he was doing. He also has not had a job, ever... so he just thought he would liven things up by trying to cause an aircraft crash. Hes in court next month and I hope he gets a custodial sentance.

How about putting him in a sim, set up for landing, then at the approriate moment, 'blind' him; if he lands perfectly, halve the hopefully stiff sentence; if not, double it !

Also introduce him to families of crash victims - I suspect they'd be only too willing to help educate.

That might give him something to reflect upon, pardon the pun.

And no, don't care if he can fly so much as a PC...

One solution ?
 

Seriously,

This laser problem, with powerful kit in the hands of idiots ( terrorists is a whole different ball game ) is obviously a problem which if we - I say we as SLF / someone possibly underneath/ concerned anyway - will be lucky if there is not a serious accident before it stops.

Seems to me, while tracing gits who 've bought the things recently may be relatively easy, that doesn't really sort it; only thing I can think of is a hand-in amnesty, with a high enough reward to make it worth their while.

Might be nauseating paying the idiots, but I reckon £ will be the only thing to appeal to them - or their relatives / chums - a warning campaign would only glamourise it, bring in more berks, and worry the public.

It would be money well spent don't you think ?

This seems to apply internationally.

Two L@zer attackers (aged 12) caught by Grampian Police
 

BBC NEWS | Scotland | North East/N Isles | Youths, 12, 'lasered helicopter'
Aged 12!!! Well done the Bristows pilot who reported them.:D

Hi..slf here...
I used to rollerblade along Benidorm seafront years ago..(reckon around 15 yrs ago)..it was a nightly excercise,usually after 10 pm in the winter time,when there were no crowds..
Anyways,i remember the terror i felt when i was followed by a red dot,not knowing it must have been some childish tw*t in one of the apartment bulidings playing with a laser,but was convinced it was a sniper aiming to pop me off.
Truth be known,they were probably having a right laugh at my expense,as i tried to dodge it,and eventualy hid in a doorway.
I really think that the offenders know exactly what they are doing,it falls into the same catagory as lobbing a lump of concrete off a motorway bridge,just to see if they can "miss".??? the vehicle passing underneath.
I say prosecute,and no less than a prison sentence for endangering an airline,it's crew and passengers.

Every time there are reports about laser targeting we get more reports of it happening.

So surely we all know what the answer is ....................... ?

Two years of jail for California man:

L@ser shot at Sheriff?s helicopter leads to jail

PILOTS ARE ADVISED THAT THERE HAVE BEEN OCCASIONS WHEN AN
UNAUTHORISED GROUND BASED LASER LIGHT HAS BEEN OBSERVED AROUND THE AD AREA

Somewhat vague don't you think?? :rolleyes:

46 laser incidents reported so far in Canada this year. The maximum penalty for a perp caught in the act seems to be 5 years.

TheStar.com | GTA | More pilots blinded by lasers

I've been a target 3 times now. Twice on approach into Manchester, looked like somewhere near Cheadle and then once from the Buxton area.

The other occasion the chav had a device powerful enough to hit us from the resort across the bay south of Kos airport.

I'm going start wearing my sunnies at night....

approach to EGCC . . . . . . . .
 

Cheadle is right under short final for 23R, but Buxton is much further out, so you'd still be considerably higher there ! My practice is quite close to Buxton . . . . . but it wasn't me, guv - - honest ! !

I just read on the Eurofighter website that the "Head Equipment Assembly" is equipped with an anti-l@zer visor. Something to do with l@zer targeting systems potentially shining in the eyes of the pilot. Is there any way that this kind of anti l@zer technology can be retro-fit into the already multi-layered aircraft windshields?

There seems to be no realistic way of stopping people from endangering aircraft in this way so why not make them laser proof from this angle? Has this ever been tried?

The LH aircraft in front of my 737 on approach to Hamburg runway 23 a few weeks ago reported a laser being shone at him. I was somewhat taken aback when the tower asked me if I would look out and try and spot it.

He wasn't joking as he asked me after landing if I saw anything. I would have prefered if he had said something more sensible like, caution a laser has been reported by previous aircraft, report if anything seen.

from "The Log" . . . . . . .
 

Obviously a very attractive idea if it were practicable, and affordable.

BALPA members will see in the latest edition of its magazine (Oct/Nov 2008) there is an interesting article about the whole subject of l@zer hazards to flights. One paragraph in the article reads :

So there's your answer for now.

Protection using filters
 

Military goggles are specified to cut out wavelengths that are known to be in use by nearby friends (or known enemies). The same goes for medical goggles - they cut out the wavelength that is known to be in use.

As noted above, dye-based club/pointer/hobby lasers have so many frequencies available that filters can't guarantee protection. This is especially true if someone truly twisted uses a non-standard wavelength, so to fall outside standard filters.

Green 532-nm is the most common powerful laser, and you can get decent protection for $200 or so. For a bright source, you should still see some green light, but it would be attenuated below a dangerous brightness.

However, note that LED/LCD displays and warning lights can emit a reasonably narrow wavelength range, and so protection goggles (unlike most sunglasses) could affect perception. As a result, there could be unforeseen safety consequences from donning 532-nm blocking lenses in the cockpit.

More laser "action" reported near BNN at 18:15ish last night. Idiots!

powerful green l@zer
 

I had some twit on the ground flashing his l@zer at me (caught in the peripheral vision of my eyes) recently in Central Europe whilst on initial departure at night.

It seems to becoming more and more popular.

How powerful are these devices, and, can they cause any long-term retinal damage?

How bright?
 

Pointers are in the milliWatt range. Disco l@zers are in the Watt range. All are distracting if shone into your eyes, and disco l@zers could be damaging.

However, even with a launch telescope, it is unlikely that enough light from a disco l@zer would make it into your eye to do any lasting damage. I believe the danger is from distraction.

The eye tends to steer automatically to a bright light, which exacerbates dazzle and helps to wipe out the most sensitive patch of your vision. Knowledge of this effect is some protection, as a conscious effort to look away will help.

A series of shots from a cheap digital camera out of your window might allow the authorities to work out quite accurately where the l@zer's coming from, by comparison with other lights, even if it does sounds a bit like the CBS show `Numbers'. Without pictures, it'd be tough to get a position, unless the perpetrating MOOC decides to continue to light up the police helicopter until friends on the ground arrive (as previous posts report can happen).

Does anybody on this thread have any reliable figures?

Looking at the sun for more than an instant, even with the iris of the eye closed to the maximum, can do retinal damage. Doing so through binoculars is almost certainly to do such damage.

Laser pointers, of the type used in a lecture hall, are "class I", and can momentarily dazzle you if shone right into your eyes in the semi-dark from close-up, but are otherwise pretty harmless. If one was pointed at an aircraft from a mile away, you would probably not even notice it.

Here we are talking about 'disco' lasers. The stuff that's used for disco shows, laser light shows, etc. For sale on eBay and suchlike to all and sundry. Now we're talking 300 mW and more.

I take it it's already a given, that looking directly into a 300mW laser beam from a mile away, even quite briefly, is enough to totally dazzle you, and make you see stars and splotches for minutes afterwards. Not quite what you want to see when you're flying an aircraft.
Even without looking directly into the beam, the effect is totally distracting, and may be enough to destroy your night vision, when, again, your iris is already fully open.

But my strictly personal question for the moment is: are there any records about permanent retinal damage at the power levels we're talking about?

Not trying to minimise the matter.... rather the contrary!

CJ

It's not just the potential blindness that is the problem. You also have to consider the distractional value of such a device. Typically, these lasers are shone at aircraft operating closer to the ground - the time when we are changing speed, configuration and being steered clear of other traffic and obstacles. These devices make it more likely to for crew to make an error. If just for that the little gits who shine these things at people need their nuts removing.

PM

In the UK this will probably be dealt with just as pathetically as mobile phone use when driving...

1) Wait 3 years after the problem becomes acknowledged by the general public..
2) Parliament wakes up 3 years too late and then spends another year prattling about it..
3) Finally get some legislation in place 4 years too late
4) Then the Police Force declare a 6 month amnesty '...until the driving public get used to the idea' (probably illegal actually, a law is a law!)
5) End Result... nobody takes it at all seriously, esp. power-suited dodgem dames on the way to their date after work; White van men; Mums doing the school run with umpteen kiddies in the back of tinted window SUVs; Yardies doing their drug-runs (cut and shut BMWs usually)... etc

Bet that's the timescale and nett effect in this case too... zilch!

PS.Nos 1 & 4 were shameful - sent totally the wrong message!