The way I see it is pilots are like engines. You have two in case one dies! You can still fly with one though as with engines when one is doing all the work it is more likely to fall over itself. To me thats definitely an emergency;)

There is no doubt about it, Mayday.

In fact happened in our company a few years back and NATS and our Management had a meeting about it as the FO didn't delcare an emergency and NATS were thinking that they should have done.

I couldn't agree more.

There must be a an awful lot of single crew aeroplanes flying around in a permanent state of Mayday - and I suppose we should declare one every time a crew member has to drop his trousers in the loo! The other guy's all by himself for perhaps 5 minutes - gosh anything could happen - Mayday, Mayday!

I have admit that I would 'normally' just declare PAN PAN in such an event. I add a rider to that, in that in some parts of the world, the PAN call is not readily recognised, in which case a MAYDAY call would be more appropriate.

I think that a basic incapacitation however, does not put the aircraft into a situation where 'the survival of all on board is in imminent risk' (ie MAYDAY), but more into a situation where 'there is no immediate risk' (ie PAN) but where ATC need to put in place measures to ensure priority handling.

Maybe there should be an ETOPS-type certification for pilots, so that one pilot can fly for 120 minutes or 180 minutes by himself... :suspect:

Since when is a bog standard engine failure an emergency situation?

A mayday should only be issued if the people on the ground can assist you. Simple.

I cannot think why and how ATC / emergency services / Handling / your mother could help you if your engine is shut down because of low oil pressure!

Back to school for some of you guys I think.

Fiona. If I have one donk shut down, I don't particularly want to fly around the hold for 20 minutes waiting my turn to land. On my particular craft it says LAND ASAP in red right in front of me.

So you don't think people on the ground can assisit you? An emergency isn't over until the aircraft is safely on the ground, secured/shutdown with all occupants safe (possibly evacuated) and accounted for. How are you going to achieve that without assistance?

ATC might just appreciate knowing that there may be potential problems with exiting the runway after you've landed, or the possibility that oil / hydraulic fluid has pi$$ed all over your brakes with chance of a resulting fire/smoke issue. Or that you are very performance limited etc etc etc

I'd like to think this is a wind up and I've bitten...... but if it isn't then I think perhaps you're the one who should be going back to school.

A4 :hmm:

>Since when is a bog standard engine failure an emergency situation?

********************************
If it's your one and only engine?

(B52s can declare a seven-engine approach. ;) )

Mayday
 

Now stop arguing children - we can all now clearly see that a MAYDAY was called for....

Ok your right. Its an emergency if you have a failure of an engine in a single engined aircraft as the only way you are going is down!!

A4 for your education....

Multi engine aircraft are designed to fly happily on one. Twenty minutes in a holding pattern is neither here nor there. Think about transpacific and transatlantic operations. Just because engines are bigger it doesn't mean they are safer.

The problem with some of you public school boys is that you jump at the slightest problem.

Some advice for you A4. Sit on your hands and leave well alone. Most aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error. Don't forget that. Calling mayday just because of an engine rundown is totally
unnecessary.

"The problem with public schoolboys....."

Hmmmmmm. And we all know the problem with YOU Fiona! Blatant disregard for your fellow colleagues etc etc.

"A Mayday should only be issued if the people on the ground can assist you" - well, surely in the case of a relatively low-hour guy/gal, new on type, assistance can be gained from ATC by calling a Mayday.....

My company says we should if we have an incapacitation, but even if they didn't have it as standard, I probably would at this stage in the game (new on type).

Go back to play-school yourself!

I hope not, A4. Some of our drills say "as soon as possible" and others say "as soon as practicable". Both are ASAP, but the second allows time (for example to hold, if that's necessary).

Fiona for your education....... I'm certainly no public school boy. Just a basic comprehensive education - left at 16 with a clutch of modest 'O' levels.

You have not stated whether you're talking about twin ops or 3 / 4 engine ops. As the thread started off about B-Med let's assume it's twin Ops.

Your quite right that a/c can fly on one engine - it's a certification requirement you know...... Presumably then if YOU have a failure on take-off, you're going to continue on to destination (if you have sufficient fuel) because it is "designed to fly happily on one" engine. :rolleyes:

At no point have I said about "jumping". In fact my briefs to the FO regarding an aborted take-off include the phrase "once the park brake is set, and the cabin crew are at station, WE WILL SIT ON OUR HANDS and asses the situation."

If you insist that you would not call Mayday for an engine failure, what would you say to ATC, if anything? If you advise them that you have an engine shutdown, you'll be met by lots of flashing lights anyway so I see no reason to not call Mayday. If you don't tell ATC then what are you going to put in the Tech Log? I cannot begin to understand your thinking for not wanting to get as much assistance as is available to you - do you think your some kind of superhero? :confused:

As I say I'm sure your just winding us up. If not I pity anyone who is with you should you suffer an engine failure. Great CRM.

A4 :ugh:

keithl:

I think the inference is to land the aircraft as soon as possible having done all the necessary drills etc, not throw it on the ground ASAP, as opposed to continuing. It will either be in amber or red depending upon the severity of the failure.

A4 :)

There is a new Pilatus which takes, I think 12 pax but it only has one engine. Presuming that you don't have to call MayDay after every take-off, at what number of pax does flying on one engine constitute a Mayday???

My QRH says ..

CREW INCAPACITATION

PILOT NOT INCAPACITATED
· Fly the aircraft.
· Confirm incapacitation.
· Make optimum use of the autopilot.
· Declare an emergency to ATC.
· Call the XXX or available crew member to the cockpit.

I guess if you didnt want to state "MADAY" on R/T you could resort to one of the other internationally accepted methods whilst flying single pilot ....:rolleyes:

the Morse signal ... — — —... with visual apparatus or with sound apparatus;

a succession of pyrotechnical lights, fired at short intervals, each showing a single red light;

the two-flag signal corresponding to the letters NC of the International Code of Signals;

the distant signal, consisting of a square flag having, either above or below, a ball or anything resembling a ball;

a parachute flare showing a red light;

a gun or other explosive signal fired at intervals of approximately one minute.

:}


As far as engine fire and failure goes, if I had a fire, it to would be a MADAY, if that fire "indicated" it was out I would think twice or four times about downgrading to a PAN. A failure, initially might call MADAY, then after some time considering performance etc, downgrading maybe the way to go, might even be able to get a relight and return.

As far as I am concerned, no problems with overstating the situation initially and changing the priority after further assessment/drills.

What is " a bog standard engine failure"? Contained or Uncontained?

Are you confusing an engine shut-down with an engine failure?

Should I or shouldn`t I declare an emergency in case of either an eng. failure og crew incapacitation?

Apart from sounding cool, calm and collected on the radio (and when explaining the situation to colleagues on ground) I see absolutely no reason why I shouldn`t....

There are no prizes to be won in either case, so in my opinion, I will declare an emergency and think about the extra paperwork when I am safely on ground. I`d much rather declare an emergency that I shouldn`t have, than NOT declaring one that I SHOULD have..... I mean.... is there ANY reason NOT to??

In the case of an engine failure or incapacitation; I would declare a MAYDAY at first. Once the situation has been contained, the checks done and a plan of action decided upon and advised to ATC, I would then consider downgrading the emergency to a PAN. The problem with a Mayday, apart from that mentioned in all of the above posts, is that not only does everything come to a halt at the airfield, the local hospitals are contacted and put on red alert. If the conditions at the diversion airfield are ok and there are no other mitigating factors, I would feel a PAN was more suitable.

Just my opinion.

GF

FF
''Since when is a bog standard engine failure an emergency situation?
A mayday should only be issued if the people on the ground can assist you. Simple.
I cannot think why and how ATC / emergency services / Handling / your mother could help you if your engine is shut down because of low oil pressure!
Back to school for some of you guys I think.''

Spoken like a true 20 year old who has never been there and with the arrogance to boot!:mad:

You have obviously only had the luxury of flying around Western Europe where language isn't a problem.:eek: and there is a decent airport within gliding distance :ooh:

You have a lot to learn :*

For those of you who dont see any reason not to call a mayday,try these.
1. When the call is made, the hospitals in the local area are put on standby and any non emergency operations are postponed until the impending crisis has passed.
So your granny waiting for her hip replacement goes back to her bed waiting for you to go through a checklist that you've done plenty of times in the sim.
2 The roads around the airport are blocked off to allow easy access to airport for supplimentary emergency services.
For someone coming in on 1 engine and no fire or control problems,pan is the call to make.

Sorry gammons you beat me to it.

are you trying to tell me 1 engine operation is not considered a mayday?

errm, I guess this doesn't affect the semantics BUT

as a UK ATCO it doesn't really make the slightest practical difference!

In area you'll get priority handling in any case, and the action we take in the tower depends on the emergency itself:

e.g. if a twin (any twin, even a 240-min ETOPS 777) tells us they're on one engine they're going to be met by flashing blue lights whether they like it or not! We have our own rules to follow.

So don't stress too much since in reality it makes no difference what sort of emergency you declare.

Fiona, I tip my hat to you for wind- up skills to rival the chief winder at the Swiss clockworks.May you fly the assymetric skies with Lord Flashart as your co-pilot!
Any snags, lets think now,ermmm,FO's chart light u/s,windows a bit grubby,, Oh!! and an uncontained turbine failure on No 2.
Apart from that she's a good ship.

A4

I am talking specifically about a twin engined jet with a contained engine failure or a shut down of one of the engines because of low oil pressure etc.

I may divert depending on distance to destination / landing weight issues / wx / airport facilities / engineering support. It is not a problem to get all hot under the collar about and in my book definately NOT a May Day.

That is the problem in the UK everything is a crisis.

Your the one in the flight deck with the failure what can anybody on the ground do to help? I suggest you sort the problem yourself and tell everyone later in the pub not to all the spotters with their airband receivers.

The problem may be a Pan but nothing else. Stop being an alarmist.

FF,
Most decent airlines would take a very dim view of a crew flying a twin that based a diversion decision on the quality of engineer support. An twin aircraft flying on one engine should divert to the nearest suitable airfield.

Mayday or not
 

Very few of you seem to be aware of asking for the emergency services to be on ' Local Standby'.

Any air traffickers out there will confirm that this term is used in the Manual of Air Traffic.

It seems that currently in this country it is up to the air traffick controler to make the decision of wether or not it is a full emergency (requiring area hospitals and RFS) or just the local airport ones. I should think that the best person to be the judge of that is the Captain or F/O if the Captain is U/S.

As for not declaring an emergency with either an engine failure or crew incapacitation is asking for trouble. Remeber that accidents are always chains and that could well be one of the links.

Trying to be macho about it will probably get you in a whole heap of trouble. Remember the Avianco crash in NY.

This is how we play it at Heathrow:

If you are flying a 2 engined aircraft of any variety whatsoever and you tell us that you have engine trouble of any description no matter how small.... We put on a Full Emergency and you get met by the chaps in the fire service

If you are flying a 3 or 4 engined aircraft of any variety whatsoever and you tell us that you have engine trouble of any description no matter how small.... We put on a Local Standby and you get met by the chaps in the fire service.

None of the above will prevent us from sending out the fire service in full force if we have even the slightest inkling that you aren't telling us the full truth. It is much better for us to aim high with the emergency category and then be downgraded later than to answer questions in court as to why we picked a low grade category to start with.

It doesn't matter if you declare a PAN or a MAYDAY. The words "engine", "hydraulic", "smoke", "fire", "control difficulties" and a whole multitude of others will have us reaching for the big red button.

There are however, a few good reasons as to why you might want to tell us if you have lost an engine:
1) If you are departing to the north from 09R at Heathrow and the radar boys have a helicopter on the heli routes and you pop an engine, then you aren't going to be climbing very well.... and that will put yourself and the heli at risk
2) If you lose an engine at any time it is going to give you a reduced climb performance and reduced speed performance. Hence there would be no point in the radar guys trying to boot you above the stack working on the assumption that you are functioning normally only to discover you swimming through the Biggin hold somewhere around FL80.
3) We can clear the decks and make preparations for you to come back. Not withstanding the fire cover, it also allows us to get a runway inspection prepared so that we can let all the other aircraft resume landing as soon after as possible. This in turn prevents fuel emergencies and diversions from the holds to other airfields (a good way to prevent further developing emergency situations). We can also arrange for a tug to come out and tow you to stand if for any reason you can't move after landing. We can arrange for buses to come and pick up any pax if you have to evacuate on the ground. We would also keep a very very close eye on you, if god for bid, your other engine stopped turning whilst on the approach, and arrange for the services to be prepared for something a little worse than a single engined landing. We can let your airline know, particularly if you are too busy to give them a call, and they can arrange for another aircraft/somewhere for the passengers to go, etc

But the most important two for me are:
1) We give you peace of mind.... You know from us that we have set everything up and if it all goes pear shaped then as part of the pilot/ATC team we have got your ass covered
2) It gives us peace of mind as well....... A wise old controller once said to me "At the end of the day, we get to go home regardless even if some of them don't..... better to be safe than sorry"

As far as crew member incapacitation goes.... well thats your call, but a heads-up never goes amiss and would allow us to be ahead of the game and prepared for any sudden eventualities.

Safe flying :)

ATC also have a list for which of their categories many common emergencies lie in and they HAVE to follow that list. One of them states that an a/c on 50% power or less should be considered a Mayday, however I have no idea of the Airport category that falls in being an Area man. If the controller does not put the appropriate category in action and a disaster follows, who's fault is it that the services weren't there when maybe they should have been? Its always best to have too higher category and a perfect landing.........

PS How easy is it for a twin donked a/c flying on only one to fly a perfect hold at holding speed at FL70 up to FL150 turning either into or away from the shut off engine maintaining perfect level? Also if thinking (FF) that its not a Mayday, would you at least inform ATC of the shut down?

PPS Is it spelt category or catergory? That is spelt and not spelled??!!??

Edited as Halo added as I was typing so some questions answered. To add and ask Halo et al to clarify, I would also expect a much bigger gap on final approach from the one ahead (or even landing on the departing runway?) to avoid any possibility of a go-around due to the one ahead?

How easy is it for a twin donked a/c flying on only one to fly a perfect hold at holding speed at FL70 up to FL150 turning either into or away from the shut off engine maintaining perfect level?

For a "light" twin (A319/20/21, B737) it shouldn't be a problem. The smaller aircraft are also certified to land at their max take-off weight so an immediated return is also possible. For a B777 or A330 it's a different matter. They will still be able to maintain a "positive flight path" but will be dumping fuel to improve performance and get below max landing weight. Obviously if they have an uncontained fire, they're going to return at more than MLW and pray everything works out.

An A320 can maintain about FL180 on one engine, so the hold at FL 70 is not an issue (apart from the fact that you're only on one engine :) )

A4

hmm, this sounds like an interesting debate! Think I'll join in.... although for some reason prune seems to not want me to access wherever it started, and only let me see the last two pages!

IMHO a mayday is for a "life threatening" emergency (e.g. inability to maintain height, fire etc etc etc) so presumably for you modern twin chaps and chapesses running on one engine (assuming the other is shut down and hasn't just put half its' blades through your fuel lines!) is not call for a mayday, but more a pan?

Pan is going to let everyone know that you're not really in a happy place, but not quite ready to drop out of the sky over central london! From talking to some of my (do I have to admit this?!) mates in air traffic, this may lead to them stopping billy the lorry driver using the perimeter road and blocking the keys when his engine takes a dump, and other such interesting petty things, which would really spoil your day if you were in a situation where you'd rather not go around!

But better to declare a pan, and get that priority, then do the paperwork later, rather than have billy parked on your numbers! Besides, doesn't matter what you say to ATC, as mentioned earlier, if you breathe the words "engine shut down" or "hydraulics snag" in their direction they'll act the same regardless of what else you say! The pan/mayday adds urgency to it, and will help you when you're in a part of the world where they may not go to quite such great lengths for you! Also it increases the SA of your fellow aviators, which is no bad thing, especially if you're somewhere unfamiliar!

Food for thought though, ain't it?

PS KeithL, land ASAP is used to mean "as soon as possible", land as soon as practicable is always used to mean itself, certainly on every type I've ever flown...... Just so you can't get confused when reading the drills, is like using affirm instead of affirmative to avoid the confusion.

Mayday - Grave and imminent danger threatening the aircraft or people on board, immediate assistance required.

Pan Pan - Urgent message regarding the safety of the aircraft, someone on board, or of a ship, aircraft or other vehicle or other person within sight.

Based on this definition, pilot incapacitation is most definitely a Pan, and my company ops manual agrees with this. The exception to this I'd say would be if the other pilot was having a heart attack, then someone is in grave danger. If it's just a dodgy curry the night before lock them in the toilet and , erm, Pan!:D sorry!

If you are sitting in the RH seat and your captain starts complaining about pains or whatever, and he falls over the controlcolmn, it would most defenetly be Mayday,as you never know whats wrong with him. He might be dying there on your left, and you would never know unless your hobby is studying medicin in between flights.

As for the engine failure and what the guys on the ground can do. They can for one help you navigate while you are up there thinking about other things. And I would think an engine just dont shut down without something being wrong with it. You could have fuel or whatever spraying the fields below without you knowing. Would think thats a firehazard. I, and my company, would go for a Mayday with an engnine failure.

I disagree. If the guy beside you crokes it you can still declare a medical emergency using a PAN call. There really isn't a need to declare a MAYDAY. The aircraft can still fly normally and you will still receive priority treatment. The only difference is that the local hospitals don't get ready for a few hundred potential casualties.

Again, with the the engine failure, it's a matter of discretion. With a compressor stall, flame out, voluntary shut down due unusual engine indications etc, where the situation has been contained, then a PAN would be a reasonable option.

As you say with a engine severe damage or the like, then the situation obviously cannot be confirmed to be contained, only managed, therefore a MAYDAY would be more sensible.

GF

Personnaly, I would not declare a mayday for a pilot incapacitation.

Warned ATC, sure!
Today, I want a nice and easy approach to the easiest runway available and ask the others guys to change of type of approaches three types in five minutes, to expedite descent, ...

If you considered than flying with only one pilot is an emergency, every single pilot passager commercial operation should be forbidden and one pilot should never ever be allowed to be alone in the cockpit even for the five minutes it takes for its colleague to use the loo.

Now, make it a captain incapacition (F/O although qualified have probably a lower experience), or add a non-standard approach for whatever reason (unfamiliar with the field, weather, local conditions,..).
and the 1001 things that make our job sometimes "interresting" and I will quickly re-evalute that.

But I don't see why it would MANDATES a mayday call.

Exactly like I don't think an engine shut-down MANDATES a mayday call or even a panpan, although some does.

My 2 cents

I suggest it would be helpful if we could all understand that PAN and MAYDAY calls simply enable ATC to prioritise traffic. Any call-out category of the Emergency services will be determined by ATC, based on the nature of the pilot's reported problem. Please re-read halo's excellent post - although specific to LHR, similar guide-lines apply to all UK Civil Airports.

Mayday or not mayday
 

I my part to the world the words '..and requires immediate assistance,...' is labelled to the MAYDAY, and '....does NOT require immediate assistance...' is attached to the PAN.

Of my last two inflight shut downs (twin engine a/c) the first one fitted the 'IMMEDIATE' requirement while the other did not ie the former was on T.O. (required a sudden change in routing and therefore a hazard against other traffic) and the latter occured just prior to descent and required no immediate changes at all.

Therefore, for the same problem, the first was, by definition, a MAYDAY, and the other a PAN.

PS Have any of you noticed how reluctant some are to use either of these at all, even for very serious situations?:confused:

(Insert the worst profanity you can think of here.)

I really hope some of the posts are just flame baits! I cannot believe that you wouldn't declare emergency for your other crewmember incapacitation! Yes, modern aircraft can be flown by one pilot but point in declaring emergency and making immediate diversion to nearest suitable airport is getting some medical help for your other guy in cockpit! Even if he is only subtly incapacited, this may be a sign of stroke and then you better get him on the ground ASAP. My company's OM states that you have to land at nearest suitable airport if passenger goes ill and now there are claims that some companies don't consider pilot incapacitation worth of initiating diversion?!?!? CosmosSchwartz, if you weren't kidding, just give me a hint what's your company, I don't want ending up working for it. Actually, I don't want to fly as its pax either. As to what P in asap means, it depends on circumstances. On VMC day I might divert to Sankt Johann in Tirol, on IMC it would be SZG or MUC. In any case I wouldn't rush it but I definitively wouldn't waste my and his time by flying on to destination.
What can the people on the ground (namely ATCOs) do to help me if I have engine failure? Well, 50% of my power will be gone, so I won't be able to keep my speed, altitude or RoC. I might need to initiate diversion or even driftdown that will take me away from our assigned route, so they could, for example.... keep everyone out of my way, as I have no desire to fly TCAS RAs on one engine. Jeez, have you ever been told on CRM course that CRM is about using all available resources? My company SOP says that every engine failure has to be treated as emergency and that was because macho French from ATR put inflight engine flameout under abnormal QRH section and our big brother got pretty angry about it when this was discovered during audit.
Who are you guys? Junior MGT pilots or SSTR guys with 500 hrs on big shiny 737, still swallowing everything that comes out of MGT... mouths? If you think that airplanes are happy flying on one engine or with one pilot you should go flying F-16 or harrier.

Or pawnee.

Clandestino:

You're not making a differentiation between categories of emergency. A PAN call is still an emergency and you will still receive direct routings and priority handling, and be met by flashing lights on landing. The difference is there's a good chance that everyone on board is not going to die, because things are pretty much under control. If that was not the case then it is a MAYDAY.

Obviously different companies have a different interpretation of this type of thing, and some will always err on the side of caution and declare a MAYDAY. But that isn't to say that declaring a PAN is wrong or unsafe, as you imply by having a poke at Mr Cosmo.

PAN is urgency, not emergency. If you get flashing lights on arrival after PAN it's because some wise ATCO alarmed the services after you've made your status and intentions clear. If you declare emergency (and you may just say so, no need to shout mayday) you get priority handling by ATC. If you just declare PAN, decision about priority rests with the ATC, you have only given up a bit of decision making. And if things are not under control onboard the aircraft, I'm not interested in talking to anyone over radio until some control is restored. Does the phrase:"Aviate, navigate, communicate" seem familiar to you?
My apollogies to mr CosmosSchwartz if I misunderstod his post.