Those damned pedantic idiot captains
 

They are in every airline I know but they give me the screaming heebeejeebees\ when I hear the same old stories.

Example: First officer correctly decides to use speed brake during a 737 descent. Keeps hand on the speed brake lever in accordance with company SOP even though it means stretching across throttles and in any case it's uncomfortable. Autopilot is engaged as per SOP. PF operates autopilot as per SOP. ATC give a heading change, so F/O momentarily relinquishes his left hand from the speed brake lever in order to select new heading on MCP hdg selector knob.

Pedantic idiot in LH seat immediately reprimands F/O for breaking company SOP because the poor bastard took his hand off the S/B lever for 3-5 seconds at the most. Pedantic LH seat idiot says F/O should have kept his left hand on S/B lever and adjusted hdg selector with right hand. What utter unadulterated tosh!

Reminded me of when I first got in a 737 simulator in another lifetime and thought Man - this is for real. What a lucky chap I am for soon flying a 737. It was an old -200 with old instruments.

I adjusted my seat and leaned over to move the HSI course knob situated (I think) on left bottom corner of the instrument. A blast of hot air hit the back of my neck from the old pedantic check pilot crouched menacingly in the jump seat as he yelled in purple faced anger: "You use your left hand for the course knob and the right hand for the heading knob." I thought to myself "Do I really want to be an airline pilot if I have to put up with these old fools?" Yet thousands of F/O's get this treatment every day somewhere in the world.

Or yet another occasion when the rate of climb was phenomenal and I called out "Approaching 1000 to go". The LH seat pedantic calmly corrected me in a gentle sarcastic tone saying "the call is 1000 to go, NOT approaching 1000 to go." He completely missed the point that such was the rate of climb at the time, that the chimes would have sounded before I could have completed the support call - the chimes being the back-up to the support call - not the initiator.

I have nothing but the greatest sympathy for First Officers forced to button their lips and accept this crap from idiots in the LH seat.

I know what you are saying! There is nothing worse than being criticized about a landing in extreme conditions only to watch the captain do an even worse job on the next sector knowing it would be bad CRM to make any comments!

My biggest irritation is being trained one way by the training captains and then have a line captain tell me I am doing things wrong! It becomes so confusing and leaves you in a very difficult position.

Still, its all good fun!

Technically if you deviate from SOP's you're in the wrong......however, as a good line training captain once told me, if you can always adequately justify a deviation to the other crew member then there shouldn't be an issue........

I don't think anyone could argue that any one companies set of SOP's is completely flawless?!

With I-Ford on this one. When you get the left seat guys you will realise some of your FOs can be pedantic point-scoring pain in the ar***s as well! Every one needs treated differently. Some will bore you to tears with techno-discussion and exhaust you with questions, others are great company and good fun but dreadful pilots. Some are over-confident, resistant to advice and consequently downright dangerous since pride gets in the way.

Don't think it's an easier life in the left seat!

Merry Xmas to you all, and I hope you don't get crusty captains in 2005!

Of course there are pedantic F/O's aswell, which in connection with a weak capt. can be very dangerous. But an interesting question would be. 'Can we change these CLOWNS. These guys are one of the main reasons for the CRM courses of today (please no discussion about the definition of it in this thread), but learn NOTHING from it. CRM is of course also very usefull for the, lets say, normal crews.

Even the 'one man show' captain, with few years to go before his pension is normally very pleasant and safe to work with (although he is not giving the perfect example).

No I mean the kind of captain who comes in 15 minutes late, starts to smoke in my face, does nothing of the paperwork and then THROWS it like trash on the table saying that the alternate is wrong (which is not true). When you disagree with him, at a certain moment you have to back off because otherwise it eskalates. Or after his usual 'ballooning smack on the deck', during my approach he is continuously touching and moving the thrustleavers saying there is windshear (which is complete bull), then during the flare again
interfering. With the remark after landing, of course during rollout, I otherwise would have flown it into the ground. I know this guy is a zero, so I won't sleep any less. But If you tell this in the office, they say they know it. Result of course 'nada'.

People like this should be sacked on the spot.

Well of course none of us are perfect. A few interesting comments in the posts so far :

"I have nothing but the greatest sympathy for First Officers forced to button their lips and accept this crap from idiots in the LH seat."

The point that something is pedantic doesn't mean it is wrong. Captains are not normally promoted on the basis that they are "idiots". Perhaps you need to take a wider viewpoint and maybe that will come with more experience generally ? It is hard to make any meaningful comment on one persons reported experience or on one companies SOP's, since the the other persons viewpoint is not reported. I note that you appear to make a correlation with "Old" and "fool". There are many young fools as well and perhaps it is worth pointing out that, few of those old captains got to be old by being fools. Do you feel you might have an issue with age ? ;)

"I know what you are saying! There is nothing worse than being criticized about a landing in extreme conditions only to watch the captain do an even worse job on the next sector knowing it would be bad CRM to make any comments! "

When I read this I wondered why the Commander was allowing the F/O to land in such "extreme conditions". It perhaps underscores the commanders faith in your ability ( though not seemingly recipriocated ?) or perhaps the conditions are only "extreme" from your viewpoint ? Generally speaking a commander would normally try and avoid placing the F/O as handling pilot at the more extreme parts of the operating envelope, as they have to answer for any consequences of such action.

"Sometimes when I look on my roster and find I’m going to be flying a 4 sector day with that pedantic idiot who preaches SOP’s but does not practice the preaching, not competent to fly a two crew aircraft and a damn right dangerous idiot, I then start feeling really unhappy with my job. This fool is the one who has no friends, and everyone in the Airline hates him. Yes we all know who he is and we have all flown with him"

Of course SOP's don't normally need to be "preached", they are the companys laid down methods for operating the "standard" procedures. You should be familiar with them and indeed thoroughly so. Given how unhappy you feel I am surprised you have not raised these concerns with the individual. Failing that you can raise them with another senior pilot such as your fleet manager or indeed anybody else you feel comfortable with. Clearly not "everyone in the airline hates him" as it would be very unlikely he would have attained his position and more importantly retained it, should that be the case. In any event the Captains job is not part of a popularity contest even though there is no reason why it shouldn't be enjoyable to fly with most if not all crewmembers. I would suggest rather than making yourself feel comfortable by placing yourself in your perceived "popular majority", you try and understand and adapt to this individuals style. It isn't always easy, but communication in its many guises often helps.

As other people have already said it isn't always easy in the left seat either ! However command brings with it extra responsibilities and tasks. It also places a pilot within the companies management framework. For some individuals that may place them in a perceived "box" that might account for behaviour that may seem pedantic to others. The captain may well have been subject to criticism in the past for something either he did or indeed allowed a First officer to do. He may therefore be very sensitive to certain behaviour or situations that others are not.

An individuals behaviour is often moulded by their own character and past experiences. It is probably worth remembering that as a First officer. Indeed like them or loath them, most "old" captains have been doing the job for some time, and doing it to their companies satisfaction. It is far better to learn from these individuals and filter what you value from what you do not. Being young, and or, being a co-pilot doesnt always make you right or pleasant either. It is a much harder job being a First officer because if you are good ( and I am assuming you are) you need to be a good adjutant and deputy manager to so many different characters, all of whom hold a position of authority. In my experience the best F/O's are the people who can do just that. They do it well, and themselves become commanders in the shortest timescale. Rarely do they bleat on about individuals they don't like as being "pedantic idiots" or " dangerous" or " we all hate him ". If there was any real justification for such comments the person making them would be bound to seek guidance as appropriate.

Perhaps a good new years resolution would be to make a determined effort to try and get on with the most difficult individuals. I suspect something could be learned from the effort. If not it will at least help you determine your own behaviour when in years to come you occupy that same seat and others think of you as a crusty Captain.
;)

Bealzebub - may I take this opportunity of wishing you an extremely good 'festive' and to hope we can see more of your posts on PPrune in 2005?

As usual, spot on! Words of advice that should be printed and framed by all 'aspiring' captains.

Thanks flt lt mitty, and a a very merry Christmas to you as well. I have to confess it got me out of wrapping presents for a while ! :D

Hey Bealzebub,

Your post is fully correct I cannot agree more, for the situation YOU describe. You are right, for the F/O normally a good landing is enough to make his/my day. The captain has a lot more on his shoulder. If I mess up, you mess up aswell etc.

Fact is I wanted to show how a certain captain at my airline behaves. Not only with me but with all F/O's. One even reports sick when he is scheduled with him. This was only one of many challenges I had with him.

Back to the story. I thought it was clear between the lines, but we all speak and write different languages, so no problem with that. I assume you wrote about me regarding the 'windshear' etc.. I can tell you this, there was NO WINDSHEAR at all, not on the ATIS, not reported by ATC either. The clue is I flew leg 2 and 3. Leg 2 was landed by me and indeed made my day. I didn't want to write it in these words but you force me to it. There WAS NO REASON AT ALL TO INTERFERE on leg 3. Actually it was really dangerous what he did. The rest I leave up to you. If I write it down you won't believe me anyway.

Enjoy the coming days and happy 2005.

We all know that some Captains are great to fly with and many to a greater or lesser extent a pain in the ass!
If/when i get my own command I hope I can remember what it was that made the good guys good and the others notso.
:8

Brain fade.. may you one day wear your four gold bars as golden feathers and not as lumps of lead.
Do not ponder too much from the sometimes lonely LHS that now you are the commander you are "Legally responsible for the safety of your flight to the extent of your worldwide wealth."
Stay single and invested all your salery in fast ladies, fast cars, and good beer, the rest you can waste.
Try and lead your crew with a loose rein, consider they have all been trained and most know and love their job.
As you progress you will from experiance find the point when as commander you need to step in and make decisions also the times when the reins require a bit of tightening and you need to get a grip on the flight firmer than usual. You will develop the art of smelling trouble very early and avoiding it before it hits.
No worries being a captain really... the worst that can happen is you can kill your crew and hundreds of passengers or get fired for your efforts.
Please beware of becoming all the things you hated in your former Captains. It is also better sometimes to be lucky than good.
So Good luck to you and I hope you find being a Captain is a piece of piss, I found the first 25years the worst then it got easier.

One of the differences of our job, compared to a 9to5, is to forget about the last sectors . Next trip it will be different!

In my company we used to say: The sum of a*****s is always the same, the names may differ.....

regards

What about those "damned pedantic idiot" SFOs ?

:rolleyes:

The best FOs will have the Captain look good by the end of the day, regardless of his/her abilities, attitude or aptitude.

They will in turn make the best commanders, since they have ample experience, tact, manners and leadership.

Good leaders lead by example, they praise in public, reprimand in private and stay in the background until the s**t hits the fan.

Any aviator will benefit from reading the book "Fate is the hunter", by Ernest K. Gann.
A little humility goes a long way, remember a lot was accomplished before our time in aviation.

Happy holidays to all, and fly safe!:ok:

Could not agree more about 'Fate is the Hunter' - required reading for any pilot regardless of experience - makes you realise that 60+ years ago the new recruits still had the same fears and aspirations that we had when in training or were new on the line.

Been here before !
 

There are good Captains and bad Captains.

There are good F/O's and bad F/O's.

It was ever thus!

But please will all those F/O's with a chip on their shoulder please refrain from posting so much shxt about their bad experiences with Captain's for whom they have little regard.

One day, if ever you are good enough, you too may become a Captain; the responsibility is heavy and it is support from ones junior that one needs not continual bull**** on this forum!

Merry Christmas to one and all !! :ok:

Is a a captain who always insists on first choice of the crew meals?

First choice of meal!
 

Rule 1.

Always give the best meal to the F/O - you have no control over what may have been "done" to it down the back!

Rule 2. Do not mess with "them down the back"

Never know what has been "done" to the other meal either!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 2005

I can remember being an F/O and thinking certain captains were a pain in the ass etc etc. But now I am a captain things havent changed much really, there are those you enjoy flying with and those you dont, some you just dont remember!!

It all boils down to human nature, the one thing i would remind some F/Os is that nearly all Captains were F/Os once so we DO know what it is like to sit in the right hand seat.

...To: HSWL, the originator of this thread:
 

HSWL

Instead of bad mouthing the captain you should have stayed ahead of the "fast climbing" airplane and reduced your excessive climb rate to 500 feet per minute for the last 1000 feet, especially if you're in RVSM airspace, sir.

:ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

One of the interesting points that sometimes arises in these discussions on cockpit characters is the occasional crack at ex military trained pilots bringing a perceived arrogance on board.

I have noticed this in particular in the flying instructor world as well. I wonder about this perception, because although I spent nearly 20 years as a military pilot mainly on antiquated multi-engined bombers and transports, I simply don't recall any significant "pedantics" when compared to a similar 20 plus years that I flew as captain or first officer in the airline industry.

Certainly I flew with many senior military pilots as their co-pilot and while many were definately uncurrent, none that I recall "pulled rank"in the air. Most were, in fact, quietly grateful that a lower rank copilot would offer a gentle hint without being too direct when events were getting out of the senior pilot's depth.

In contrast, I too, have experienced the airline pilot pedantic idiots so succintly referred too in HSWL original post. Perhaps there is an arrogance that surfaces with the sometimes extraordinary high status (and sometimes commensurate high salary) that comes with a command in some airlines. There is no such equivalent status in the military I served with.

Perhaps this is due to the relatively short time to a command in the military when compared to the seniority system in the airlines which can mean anything from 4 to 15 years as a first officer before a command is attained. As such the airline first officer is exposed more to the whims and eccentricities of certain types of captain and in turn the first officer can unconsciously absorb these eccentricities himself over the years - and lo and behold another pedantic captain is cloned.

Glueball. Sorry - I thought it would have been plainly obvious - it was the captain flying the fast climbing aircraft - I was the first officer at the time - hence my timely call?

Just have some patience....
 

I used to fly with a Line Training Captain who was a really huge jerk. He would set up situations just to nail me for doing/not doing something or other. I finally suggested to him, very politely, that he might get a better, more positive response to his professional input if he did not ascribe everything that went wrong solely to one of the two crew members.

He launched into a typical tirade about how I should not seek to excuse my many mistakes by blaming him... and so on and so forth.

I sat back to have a think... should I bother to educate this jerk or else just let him cut his own throat? About six months later I moved into his seat! I guess that settled that argument!

If you really, really believe that you are in the right then you should be able to cope with whatever some clown throws at you.

A lot of the time I was making mistakes, which I certainly heard all about and learned from. The rest of it, at least I had to think things through to decide what was really going on there....

One often has to confront 'das innere Schweinhund' (the bastard within) and decided how much of him is really you. It's often too easy to project it all on the man across the cockpit.

Chuks. Your last paragraph about the man within is ever so true. Very nicely put, indeed.

Let's hear it for the Pedants!
 

Well, I admit I haven't read every word in this thread, but I think I've read enough to make a further point. "Pedantic" and "idiot" are linked together as though all pedants are idiots. Somewhere else there is a reference to a pedant being "purple with rage". He shouldn't be.

I'm a pedant. Nearly forty years of flying and training have taught me to be so. Instructions, commands, requests and SOPs must be absolutely unambiguous or they WILL be misinterpreted or misunderstood. I run an "Instructional Technique" course for Training Captains and I tell them why they, too, should be pedants.

That has nothing to do with being a choleric old bully, or a snide and sarcastic sniper, or any other of the character defects we have all unfortunately experienced. Let's keep the pedants, I say, and eliminate the defective characters!

Totally agree with Keithl.

I too have a reputation for being a pedant when it comes to standards. For this, I am fully aware (although the FOs think I am not!) that I am one of the most unpopular Captains in their base.

FOs:us Captains were in your shoes once. Would you rather we didn't pick you up on sloppy operating and just tolerated it? We would like to think we are preparing you for your own command one day.

Some of the most tedious FOs to fly with are those who are perhaps in their second year of their first job, and tend to demonstrate the character flaws of being over confident and resilient to advice. I know..............I was one once!

It is said that it takes "two to tango" or to paraphrase a famous well respected US president "Ask not what your Captain can do for you but what you can do for your Captain!".

Frustrating Captains to fly with are all part of the FOs job. Dare I say it but when I started airline flying in 1971 there were far more "characters" and "awkward customers" to fly with than there are now - all before the days of CRM! However, I always made it a personal rule that I would operate the rostered trip and try and learn SOMETHING from them - even if it was the wrong way of operating the flight deck!

In order to be a good Captain, I believe, you have to be a good First Officer and it is only by flying with the "pedants" that you learn how to be effective in a multi-crew environment with different personalities.

Finally, I remember one Training Captain in a charter company I used to fly with many moons ago who had a reputation for being "difficult" although he was always technically correct on nearly every issue. I decided to do a straw poll around the company and posed the hypothetical question that they were part of the operating crew when faced with a critical and potentially dangerous in flight emergency - would you rather be with this Training Captain as commander or somebody else - without heistation they all replied that they would rather be with said "difficult" Captain!!

If those martinet (a term for one of Napoleon's officers?) Captains are looking for something to criticize, then maybe someone can have a word with them. The problem with using their names among other Captains is that one of them will sooner or later betray your confidence and rat on you. Some of the Martinet Captains probably feel (or are treated) like a Nobody at home but in their uniform they can, now in their job with a command, as you call it, really be a Somebody. Of course the wife sometimes thinks that it is her job to remind many of us that we are just a new sailor on a small ship.

Maybe the British word 'command' really goes to their heads, instead of just being the captain, as here in the US. Someone needs to remind them that techniques can vary much more than a procedure. Unfortunately, I bend over backwards and never tell FOs what technique to use, allowing them plenty of freedom, and want them to feel that they are the Co-Captain, which they truly are. If they prefer a more conservative approach to anything, I usually go with their 'comfort level' on whatever affects safety, and don't want to ever suppress their willingness to speak up.

Anyway, if another Captain can't politely get through to a fellow Captain, then can you complain to a discrete, thoughtful Line Check Captain and would it make any difference? If not, then maybe an anonymous but very tactfully worded note (in a sealed envelope) quietly put in the Captain's company mailbox might help, assuming that he looks for such petty chicken sh!t with several other FOs and won't guess who it is?

Well said IO

I have flown both l and r seat and are up for r seat again (in a bigger machine). I don't think anybody has anything against a pedant colleague l or r seat on the flt deck, but what really agrevate the **** out of people are those guys who are constantly picking on stuff that you have allready corrected for ie speed high when you have allready pulled the throttles back etc. I have never ever heard this from a really good/knowlegeble colleague but I've heard it oh so many times from the guys who are normaly not that good. If you are not good enogh your self, make the other guy look less good??? I bet you have all seen this even outside the deck. Verry often it seams to be those captains who are not that good that picks in this way ( never heard that from an fo). Allso I have the feeling that once you have been upgraded, it's for life. We have all seen companies upgrade people that really aren't qualified as cpt just because he/she is the least bad option at the time. And then it's for life unless you move on to something bigger..... All my friends I have talked to agrees that the problem gets smaller the bigger the machines are. Maybe because those captains never get to fly the jets? but they are still captain for life...... scary

Ok, who will throw the first stone:D

No stones from me. I agree with you, Ignition Override, HSWL and some other guys. The problem with this item is that your words will be twisted or that you will be told to shut up. The concerning posters (captains) are definately good and pleasant to work with, they just can't believe it. 'BECAUSE THEY DON'T FLY WITH THEM'.

Let me tell you this : ' I have seen the result of some serious misbehaviour. Thank god there are F/O's (and captains aswell, of course).

PS. This is not an attack against captains. This is about 'rotten apples' . So if you think you are still eatable. Pls don't worry then.

When I moved to the left seat I noticed one change. The idiot moved to the right seat :}

Come on guys, there are idiots all over town. These idiots you talk about have all been copilots. They are just old victims of mistrust and abuse.

LOL 'Lackof'!

Attributable, I think, to Mark Twain (?) and paraphrased

"When I was 18 I could not believe my father was so stupid. When I was 21 I was amazed how much he had learnt in 3 years"

To the pedantic captains that I flew with as an F/O, I heartily thank you. I learned from you that to be a pedant and strictly disciplined in all areas of aircraft operation is essential for safety and efficiency, especially when you were pedantic that Standard Procedures won't cover all situations, and that flexibility is sometimes necessary.

To the ordinary "Good Guy" captains that I flew with as an F/O, thank you for the time in my log book, I gained little else from you.

To the very few "Bad Apple" captains (call them Idiots if you want) that I flew with as an F/O, I heartily thank you. I learned from you first hand how a safe operation can go to crud when you break off from disciplined procedures and did your own thing. From you I learned most of all, I learned the consequences of undisciplined behaviour, I learned WHAT NOT to do, the most valuable lesson of all.

To the pedantic First Officers I now fly with, I heartily thank you. You pull me back into line once in a while if I deviate from good, disciplined, but flexible as necessary, pedanticly safe procedure.

To the ordinary "Good Guy" First Officers I now fly with, thank you for keeping me awake and alert on long tiring sectors, I cannot take my eyes off you.

To the very few "Bad Apple" F/Os (call them Idiots if you want) that I now fly with, thank you to my employer for making me an Examiner of Airmen, for it allows me the opportunity to say "Fail" or "Back to the Simulator".

Old Smokey (A pedant, and very proud of it).

Think I buy myself a dictionary and finally look up the word PEDANTIC.

Well said, Old Smokey.

Pedants. One who over values..petty details of booklearning, grammatical rules etc.

These are the flight safety menaces if only for their attitudes which cause resentment and anger in the cockpit among fellow crew members. Not good, Old Smokey...

Pedants.

Those who realise that attention to detail protects them as far as possible from this modern litigation and blame-apportioning Big Brother society in the instance of absence/relaxing of rules in an incident/accident.

Good Old Smokey!

Finally I looked up the word PEDANTIC. I know a lot of PEDANTICS who don't have a clue of the BIG PICTURE.

Anyway, this thread is about 'IDIOTIC pedantic captains'=rotten apples. People who endanger flight safety by eliminating, in this case, the F/O. Some 'idiotic pedantic captains' are in 'the tunnel' within seconds.

You're having a laugh aren't you?
 

What immense and impressive authority you speak with HSWL. Until I read your profile (PPL!) I almost considered contemplating the issues you raised. Bar-room wing-commander I imagine! Cheers, I'll have a half! bm

Gentlemen - please!

Before we descend into the usual slagging match - let's remember that there seems to be some consensus on the substance if not the semantics :O

Yes, a certain level of "attention to detail" (in lieu of the P-word) is required in this business. The professionals appreciate when their fellow crew-members help them to strive for even higher standards than those they currently operate to. The not-so-professionals resent being reminded of a problem they know warrents attention but are unwilling to do something about.

If a certain level of "attention to detail" is exceeded - then problems arise - people feel they are being picked upon :ouch: Where this threshold is located - depends entirely on the crew members involved and their mental state on the particular day.

If somebody is known to be a poor operator and still shed their light of wisdom for everybody else to see - fair enough, probably warrents consultation with colleagues & some sort of intervention. If an otherwise fair to good operator gets into P-state in a less than elegant manner - it can probably be solved over a cuppa or a beer downroute.

Remember, it is not easy to correct others and still get the point across! Often the mere hint that you want some adjustments makes people very protective - hardly the right mindframe when recieving input. Likewise, it is never easy to be criticised, even when it relates to your profession & not your person.

If we all back down from our high pedestals and try to appreciate the good points that the other persons tries to get across - the number of p-persons in this world greatly diminish. A small fraction will remain - fair 'nuf, they are tw:mad:ts. As for the remaining 95% of us - let's give eachother the benefit of the doubt and take the good points & leave the bad points aside.

Assuming that we are all adults, with powers to discern between whats valid & not and all interested in getting better at what we do & improving flight safety. :)

Brgds fm
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