Nothing beats TOGA-power
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Nothing beats TOGA-power
Hi all,
The reason for this post is because I am puzzled. In the last two years -so I found out- I made more goarounds than any living soul in the cockpit would ever dare to admit. In less than 2 years of airline flying I went around 7 (!) times already, all IMHO with plausible reasons. Still it makes me think a little about my judgement especially on short final.
Now... of those seven GAs in one I was told by the tower to go around because the runway would have been occupied; I saw the runway being cleared and was ready to land in that case, and would never have gone around hadn't the tower told me. So there, this one was out of my league.
Another one was during an approach in Nice, on the 04, with about 17 knots tailwind still in 150ft (our limit is 10kts tail) so I decided to initiate a goaround to make a second (and succesfull!) visual approach on the 22. So here, clearly, nothing wrong yet.
As I fly the 320, with the famous FBW Normal Law, I think the airplane has one big design flaw esp. for gusty weather conditions. This is that the other pilot has no clue to what I am steering, because his sidestick stands still. Here the control-loop of the twoman-cockpit fails to exist.
So there I was in EHAM doing an approach to the 06. We were 6NM behind a heavy, winds were calm. The approach was visual and almost to good to be true. In the last 100 feet the air got bumpy, and just as I wanted to initiate the flare and retard the power, a strong gust lifted the right wing up, which I instinctively tried to correct with right sidestick, but, although I had a full deflection the airplane rolled over to the left more and more. In 30 feet, with a bank angle of 6 degrees and still increasing I pulled up and applied TOGA. The captain, who wasn't aware of my full sidestick deflection and therefore didn't expect my decision, was puzzled at first, but when asked to get the gear up for the second time, came in the loop again.
Afterwards I would say: a correct and safe decision.
Now I am getting to my 'problem':
Today in Frankfurt, a similar situation happened. Strong gusty winds from the north, landing on runway 25R. This means the buildings cause extra turbulence etc. on very short final.
I was concentrating in keeping my speed more or less on the bug and sticking to the G/S.
Here in 300ft height the airplane started to roll to the left, which I tried to correct with right sidestick deflection.
In 200ft we already rolled to a bankangle of 7 degrees, and I had kept the sidestick to a full right deflection for about 2-3 secs. Here I decided the airplane was uncontrollabe, waited for half a second to see if the plane would follow my commands, and then initiated a go-around. This time the captain (another one :-) ) was just as puzzled but never lost his sharpness and together we went through a schoolbook GA-procedure.
Still... after talking to a few colleages, who told me the make, say, 1 GA per 2-3 years, some telling me they never made one in the last 6 years, and then comparing myself with my 7 GAs in less than two years... I mean, I can defend them all, I would make the same decisions in the same situations, and professionally speaking I really have the opinion there was no safer course of action to be chosen etc etc... still then somewhere in the back of my mind there is this nagging thought that maybe I should have waited today for another 50 feet, that the air closer to the ground is smoother, and the problem would have solved itself without scaring 150 pax... on the other hand... I would not like to ride in the back with a fellow pilot up front who decides to see what happens if he stretches his limits another 100ft....
The point I am making, simply put, is that due to the reactions of my colleages, who are surprised to hear about my GA-rate, is that I am forced into the opinion that maybe I might be too cautious, but on the other hand, as a professional I know my limits and I stick to them... better to lose your face than your aircraft isn't it? It is difficult to get feedback to this one, because even the captain next to me has no clue to what my steering inputs were.
It is not that I doubt my decisions, the problem is this nagging feeling in the back of my head, like, that maybe my flying skills are terrible (my training records till now show differently however) or that my overview on short final gets too narrow or whatever... I get a little uncertain in the end.
And right there I start to get irritated by my own line of thought, upon which I decide to never let myself fly into a situation where I don't trust the outcome 100% and furthermore decide that that is a professional thought due to which I am a safe and professional pilot.
Anyway, while typing this I see there is not really a question to be found, but I hope some fellow pilots can spend me an interesting thought on this one?
P77
The reason for this post is because I am puzzled. In the last two years -so I found out- I made more goarounds than any living soul in the cockpit would ever dare to admit. In less than 2 years of airline flying I went around 7 (!) times already, all IMHO with plausible reasons. Still it makes me think a little about my judgement especially on short final.
Now... of those seven GAs in one I was told by the tower to go around because the runway would have been occupied; I saw the runway being cleared and was ready to land in that case, and would never have gone around hadn't the tower told me. So there, this one was out of my league.
Another one was during an approach in Nice, on the 04, with about 17 knots tailwind still in 150ft (our limit is 10kts tail) so I decided to initiate a goaround to make a second (and succesfull!) visual approach on the 22. So here, clearly, nothing wrong yet.
As I fly the 320, with the famous FBW Normal Law, I think the airplane has one big design flaw esp. for gusty weather conditions. This is that the other pilot has no clue to what I am steering, because his sidestick stands still. Here the control-loop of the twoman-cockpit fails to exist.
So there I was in EHAM doing an approach to the 06. We were 6NM behind a heavy, winds were calm. The approach was visual and almost to good to be true. In the last 100 feet the air got bumpy, and just as I wanted to initiate the flare and retard the power, a strong gust lifted the right wing up, which I instinctively tried to correct with right sidestick, but, although I had a full deflection the airplane rolled over to the left more and more. In 30 feet, with a bank angle of 6 degrees and still increasing I pulled up and applied TOGA. The captain, who wasn't aware of my full sidestick deflection and therefore didn't expect my decision, was puzzled at first, but when asked to get the gear up for the second time, came in the loop again.
Afterwards I would say: a correct and safe decision.
Now I am getting to my 'problem':
Today in Frankfurt, a similar situation happened. Strong gusty winds from the north, landing on runway 25R. This means the buildings cause extra turbulence etc. on very short final.
I was concentrating in keeping my speed more or less on the bug and sticking to the G/S.
Here in 300ft height the airplane started to roll to the left, which I tried to correct with right sidestick deflection.
In 200ft we already rolled to a bankangle of 7 degrees, and I had kept the sidestick to a full right deflection for about 2-3 secs. Here I decided the airplane was uncontrollabe, waited for half a second to see if the plane would follow my commands, and then initiated a go-around. This time the captain (another one :-) ) was just as puzzled but never lost his sharpness and together we went through a schoolbook GA-procedure.
Still... after talking to a few colleages, who told me the make, say, 1 GA per 2-3 years, some telling me they never made one in the last 6 years, and then comparing myself with my 7 GAs in less than two years... I mean, I can defend them all, I would make the same decisions in the same situations, and professionally speaking I really have the opinion there was no safer course of action to be chosen etc etc... still then somewhere in the back of my mind there is this nagging thought that maybe I should have waited today for another 50 feet, that the air closer to the ground is smoother, and the problem would have solved itself without scaring 150 pax... on the other hand... I would not like to ride in the back with a fellow pilot up front who decides to see what happens if he stretches his limits another 100ft....
The point I am making, simply put, is that due to the reactions of my colleages, who are surprised to hear about my GA-rate, is that I am forced into the opinion that maybe I might be too cautious, but on the other hand, as a professional I know my limits and I stick to them... better to lose your face than your aircraft isn't it? It is difficult to get feedback to this one, because even the captain next to me has no clue to what my steering inputs were.
It is not that I doubt my decisions, the problem is this nagging feeling in the back of my head, like, that maybe my flying skills are terrible (my training records till now show differently however) or that my overview on short final gets too narrow or whatever... I get a little uncertain in the end.
And right there I start to get irritated by my own line of thought, upon which I decide to never let myself fly into a situation where I don't trust the outcome 100% and furthermore decide that that is a professional thought due to which I am a safe and professional pilot.
Anyway, while typing this I see there is not really a question to be found, but I hope some fellow pilots can spend me an interesting thought on this one?
P77
Join Date: Mar 2000
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P77,
Sounds as tho there is nothing wrong with your thinking...hey, if it doesn't look OK to you, the handling pilot, then by all means, go around.
OTOH, the A320 doesn't sound like it keeps both pilots in the loop...and this ain't good. Do others in your company feel the same way, by any chance?
Sounds as tho there is nothing wrong with your thinking...hey, if it doesn't look OK to you, the handling pilot, then by all means, go around.
OTOH, the A320 doesn't sound like it keeps both pilots in the loop...and this ain't good. Do others in your company feel the same way, by any chance?
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hi,
I operated the 319/320/321 only three years, but got confronted with that terrible feeling of having full deflection on the sidestick with no apparent airplane reaction twice... Upon questioning the Airbus guys, no real answer was gained, except they said that granting a faster and bigger roll-rate on final was not acceptable because the risk of pilot-induced-oscillation was too great in a light-gust situation. In other words: "live with it!"
Although you might have had a run of bad luck, thus accruing more go-arounds than average, don't change anything to your thinking: sure, on the one hand, keeping that stick right there, and trusting that the roll will kick in before the concrete jumps up, will prove correct 99% of the time. However, 10 go-around are vastly preferrable to 1 wing-tip or engine strike.
I'm still a great fan of airbus, but it's got it's peculiarities, which have to be known by everyone operating it. The most important thing for you to do seems to be filling out a flight crew report with exact details every time something like this happens, eventually raising the awareness of chief pilots and instructors to the potential handling problems. At my company, we dramatically reduced the incident rate on the airbus fleet once those little "quirks" were spread around the corps during refreshers..
I operated the 319/320/321 only three years, but got confronted with that terrible feeling of having full deflection on the sidestick with no apparent airplane reaction twice... Upon questioning the Airbus guys, no real answer was gained, except they said that granting a faster and bigger roll-rate on final was not acceptable because the risk of pilot-induced-oscillation was too great in a light-gust situation. In other words: "live with it!"
Although you might have had a run of bad luck, thus accruing more go-arounds than average, don't change anything to your thinking: sure, on the one hand, keeping that stick right there, and trusting that the roll will kick in before the concrete jumps up, will prove correct 99% of the time. However, 10 go-around are vastly preferrable to 1 wing-tip or engine strike.
I'm still a great fan of airbus, but it's got it's peculiarities, which have to be known by everyone operating it. The most important thing for you to do seems to be filling out a flight crew report with exact details every time something like this happens, eventually raising the awareness of chief pilots and instructors to the potential handling problems. At my company, we dramatically reduced the incident rate on the airbus fleet once those little "quirks" were spread around the corps during refreshers..
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I see no problem ! ! ! !
If you aren't happy with the situation, speak out LOUD and/or act, and if that means a G/A, so be it. I would rather do it once to often, than doing something stupid I will regret afterwards.
It only takes one pilot to end up with a disaster, but it takes 2 pilots to save the day.
Unstabilized approaches we hate them, G/A we make them. ! ! !
If you aren't happy with the situation, speak out LOUD and/or act, and if that means a G/A, so be it. I would rather do it once to often, than doing something stupid I will regret afterwards.
It only takes one pilot to end up with a disaster, but it takes 2 pilots to save the day.
Unstabilized approaches we hate them, G/A we make them. ! ! !
tap321 video
P77, Have you seen the tap321 video ?
It looked to me that the control laws changed parameters on the fly.
It looked to me that the control laws changed parameters on the fly.
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Just wondering were the landings made with Full Flaps or with Flaps 3?
The Airbus FCOM makes recomendations with respect to using Config (Flap 3) in gusty conditions.
I have operated the aircraft in all kinds of wind conditions and can attest to the fact that Config 3 offers far more responsive roll control. Howver, it also is more sensitive to sidestick movement and requires some practice to reduce overcontrolling.
I also agree with the concept of using small amounts of rudder to assist with roll control in the flare.
And I fully support the concspt of a go around if t all gets messed up.
The Airbus FCOM makes recomendations with respect to using Config (Flap 3) in gusty conditions.
I have operated the aircraft in all kinds of wind conditions and can attest to the fact that Config 3 offers far more responsive roll control. Howver, it also is more sensitive to sidestick movement and requires some practice to reduce overcontrolling.
I also agree with the concept of using small amounts of rudder to assist with roll control in the flare.
And I fully support the concspt of a go around if t all gets messed up.
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Hi all,
Thanks for your reactions.
CBS and Purr: To using rudder on short final... I dunno... I use rudder to align the aircraft with the centerline in the end, but to counteract a gust with rudder input, well it might work, but that's not what I have been told. I'll ask our training department what they think of it.
RBF: I have seen the TAP-video before, and my personal conclusion is that in the end they suffer from PIO, which I think is proven by the fact that after applying TOGA-power, there is no wingdancing anymore.
CBS: The recommendation to use flaps 3 in gusty conditions came from a softwarebug wich caused an almostcrash during a goaround, where some airbusprotection prevented the nose from being pulled up. The software has been updated, and with that update this recommendation -I think- has disappeared. Still you could consider a flaps 3 approach during gusty conditions, which would make sense to me. I'll keep it in mind the next time I encounter such weather.
FlyMD: If it was up to Airbus, monkeys would be flying our airplanes
Apperently my colleages experience this gustyweather-behaviour not as often as I do, if I can conclude that from the GA-rate. Or they perform a GA more often than they admit (real men do'nt go around
), or (who knows) they know an Airbus-trick which I don't know. I'll go to the training department and talk about it some more; if I get new views on the subject I'll post it offcourse.
Again thanks for your thoughts on this subject!
P77
Thanks for your reactions.
CBS and Purr: To using rudder on short final... I dunno... I use rudder to align the aircraft with the centerline in the end, but to counteract a gust with rudder input, well it might work, but that's not what I have been told. I'll ask our training department what they think of it.
RBF: I have seen the TAP-video before, and my personal conclusion is that in the end they suffer from PIO, which I think is proven by the fact that after applying TOGA-power, there is no wingdancing anymore.
CBS: The recommendation to use flaps 3 in gusty conditions came from a softwarebug wich caused an almostcrash during a goaround, where some airbusprotection prevented the nose from being pulled up. The software has been updated, and with that update this recommendation -I think- has disappeared. Still you could consider a flaps 3 approach during gusty conditions, which would make sense to me. I'll keep it in mind the next time I encounter such weather.
FlyMD: If it was up to Airbus, monkeys would be flying our airplanes
Apperently my colleages experience this gustyweather-behaviour not as often as I do, if I can conclude that from the GA-rate. Or they perform a GA more often than they admit (real men do'nt go around
), or (who knows) they know an Airbus-trick which I don't know. I'll go to the training department and talk about it some more; if I get new views on the subject I'll post it offcourse.Again thanks for your thoughts on this subject!
P77
