Crm
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Crm
Hey Guys and Girls.
I am currently writing an article about CRM, but with my lack of multicrew experience I need some help.
What is CRM for you. Did any of you guys fly before the "CRM time"
Anyone who has examples of bad CRM or of Good CRM.
I would love to hear from you.
Please write me a PM if you allow me to ask you some more questions.
BR
Fd
I am currently writing an article about CRM, but with my lack of multicrew experience I need some help.
What is CRM for you. Did any of you guys fly before the "CRM time"
Anyone who has examples of bad CRM or of Good CRM.
I would love to hear from you.
Please write me a PM if you allow me to ask you some more questions.
BR
Fd
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Operated 707's and TriStars for many years, long before CRM was the latest and greatest political correctness.
Personally had no problems whatsoever...but then again some did. The latest fad seems to bring the cabin crew into the discussions.
A complete waste of time, IMHO.
First thing you know, they'll want to have gold bars too....
Oddly enough, ran into a senior CC a few days ago, and she felt the same. I'll run the cabin she says, the guys at the pointy end have enough to do.
Suits me to a tee.
Personally feel that far too many Captains stick their oar in the cabin waters....my opinion is to leave 'em ALONE to do their jobs.
Smokie is right about some Captains hogging all the sectors. For these guys I can only say....they must have no confidence in the First Officers ability...or their own, and have to prove it all the time.
Personally had no problems whatsoever...but then again some did. The latest fad seems to bring the cabin crew into the discussions.
A complete waste of time, IMHO.
First thing you know, they'll want to have gold bars too....
Oddly enough, ran into a senior CC a few days ago, and she felt the same. I'll run the cabin she says, the guys at the pointy end have enough to do.
Suits me to a tee.
Personally feel that far too many Captains stick their oar in the cabin waters....my opinion is to leave 'em ALONE to do their jobs.
Smokie is right about some Captains hogging all the sectors. For these guys I can only say....they must have no confidence in the First Officers ability...or their own, and have to prove it all the time.
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OK Dan, here is an example.
One fine day at the old RUH airport, took over the aeroplane (TriStar) and pushed back...so far, fine and dandy.
Approaching rny 01, the IFS comes up and says..."hey Captain, the aft floor is very hot, and so it was on the inbound sector as well. Told the inbound Captain but he says...never mind, is a hot day (and so it was, 46C).
Looked around and asked the Flight Engineer (younger guys will never know what they are missing) and he says...Hmmm, the aft area equipment HOT light is on, think we have a big problem.
Returned to the gate, maintenance checked and found an N2 bleed air leak (hot floor) that in addition had burned thru a big wire bundle as well.
Question...did we have any CRM (courses) in those bygone days...and the short answer is no, none whatsoever.
It was called crew co-operation, and is certainly nothing new, whatever label you put on it. Been that way since I started in heavy jet aircraft...yes as far back as pre-1973.
The NEW programs are really nothing new, IMHO. 'Course if you were not around then, you would have no idea.
OTOH, sometimes you can have TOO much co-operatioin from the cabin staff. Take for example the time that a TriStar Captain had an engine rundown/tailpipe fire (number one) in Cairo and the CC attempted to evac....out the port side, without a ANY instruction from the flight deck.
Better to train 'em right the first time....and hope they actually listen.
One fine day at the old RUH airport, took over the aeroplane (TriStar) and pushed back...so far, fine and dandy.
Approaching rny 01, the IFS comes up and says..."hey Captain, the aft floor is very hot, and so it was on the inbound sector as well. Told the inbound Captain but he says...never mind, is a hot day (and so it was, 46C).
Looked around and asked the Flight Engineer (younger guys will never know what they are missing) and he says...Hmmm, the aft area equipment HOT light is on, think we have a big problem.
Returned to the gate, maintenance checked and found an N2 bleed air leak (hot floor) that in addition had burned thru a big wire bundle as well.
Question...did we have any CRM (courses) in those bygone days...and the short answer is no, none whatsoever.
It was called crew co-operation, and is certainly nothing new, whatever label you put on it. Been that way since I started in heavy jet aircraft...yes as far back as pre-1973.
The NEW programs are really nothing new, IMHO. 'Course if you were not around then, you would have no idea.
OTOH, sometimes you can have TOO much co-operatioin from the cabin staff. Take for example the time that a TriStar Captain had an engine rundown/tailpipe fire (number one) in Cairo and the CC attempted to evac....out the port side, without a ANY instruction from the flight deck.
Better to train 'em right the first time....and hope they actually listen.
Last edited by 411A; 19th Feb 2003 at 05:56.
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What's NOT CRM?
Firstly, CRM is not about everyone on board having a nice, warm cuddly feeling about themselves and each other, and everyone getting on nicely, and being polite to each other.
CRM is the use of all resources (not necessarily only Crew Resources) available in the most efficient manner in order to bring a flight to a safe and expeditious conclusion.
Look at UAL 232 (Sioux City DC10).
With centre engine gone, structural integrity doubtful, no hydraulics, therefore very little control surface movement, they were in deep doodoo.
There was a DC10 skipper from another airline among the passengers. He was used to operate the power levers, the F/O flew the thing, the F/E managed the panel, called checks, and the skipper did almost nothing - except manage the situation, keep an overview, avoid getting locked into the nittygritty of some small problem.
This was a case of the absolute best CRM possible.
Firstly, CRM is not about everyone on board having a nice, warm cuddly feeling about themselves and each other, and everyone getting on nicely, and being polite to each other.
CRM is the use of all resources (not necessarily only Crew Resources) available in the most efficient manner in order to bring a flight to a safe and expeditious conclusion.
Look at UAL 232 (Sioux City DC10).
With centre engine gone, structural integrity doubtful, no hydraulics, therefore very little control surface movement, they were in deep doodoo.
There was a DC10 skipper from another airline among the passengers. He was used to operate the power levers, the F/O flew the thing, the F/E managed the panel, called checks, and the skipper did almost nothing - except manage the situation, keep an overview, avoid getting locked into the nittygritty of some small problem.
This was a case of the absolute best CRM possible.
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People will always disagree on the value of CRM - I think a lot of hype is generated by buzzwords.
I think in it's most basic form CRM can should be considered as knowledge rather than as a practice - ie you do not have to actively sprout CRM to be an effective crew member.
It is common knowledge that something like 80% of all accidents are caused by human factors. To my mind the object of CRM is to study what went wrong in these accidents - learn from other peoples mistakes as it were. If you think about it where else in your training is any of this covered.
This brings me to the point that CRM is knowing what your limitations, as well as those of the rest of the crew are.
At the risk of hijacking the thread - I would be interested to hear what a good CRM course should cover.
I think in it's most basic form CRM can should be considered as knowledge rather than as a practice - ie you do not have to actively sprout CRM to be an effective crew member.
It is common knowledge that something like 80% of all accidents are caused by human factors. To my mind the object of CRM is to study what went wrong in these accidents - learn from other peoples mistakes as it were. If you think about it where else in your training is any of this covered.
This brings me to the point that CRM is knowing what your limitations, as well as those of the rest of the crew are.
At the risk of hijacking the thread - I would be interested to hear what a good CRM course should cover.
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One of the best CRM sites is Neil Krey's CRM Developers.
Try
http://users2.ev1.net/~neilkrey/crmd...topic.htm#lead
There are many resources there.
Cheers
Try
http://users2.ev1.net/~neilkrey/crmd...topic.htm#lead
There are many resources there.
Cheers
