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Worldwide pilot experience too low?

Old 7th Jul 2019, 22:17
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Worldwide pilot experience too low?

Found in USA Today.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...aa/1641781001/

OK, so it’s the usual sensationalist hack job, but there is an interesting line about a meeting tomorrow regarding pilot experience levels....

”Those questions will be at the fore Monday, when a committee of the United Nations-backed body that sets international standards for air travel is scheduled to take a fresh look at pilot requirements.”
”On Monday, a committee of the International Civil Aviation Organization, a unit of the United Nations known commonly as ICAO, is scheduled to review flight-hour requirements for pilots.”
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 22:28
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It's a rubbish article just by reading the title. These 'Murican superpilots...
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 23:35
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A very US-centric article. This being the important passage.
But rather than moving closer to the U.S. standard, ICAO appears to be headed toward another approach. It is more concerned with pilots' skills and demonstrated competency rather than just flight hours, perhaps ready to question whether a minimum-hour requirement is still needed. A recommendation to reduce flight hours, if one comes, would reflect a long-standing difference of philosophy.

"The U.S. went one way. The rest of the world went the other way," said Michael Wiggins, a professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.
It’s the QUALITY of training that is important. 1500 hours in a C150, over flat terrain, under clear blue skies, potentially operating from only one airfield, would be utterly meaningless, when moving to a twin (underslung?) engined, twin pilot passenger aircraft. Because that’s when the ‘learning’ starts all over again!

Notwithstanding the rather lofty (and politically motivated?) suggestion that, these accidents couldn’t possibly have happened to US pilots. Despite the fact that Captain Sullenburger says it would have probably claimed him!
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 23:59
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1500 hours in a C150, over flat terrain, under clear blue skies, potentially operating from only one airfield, would be utterly meaningless, when moving to a twin pilot passenger aircraft.
Complete garbage. Suzy C150 driver has made 1500 go/no-go decisions, 1500 preflights, 1500 run-ups (more decisions) 1500 T/O's, 1500 en-routes (more decisions). Of the 1500 landings at least 25% will be crosswinds, some flights will be RTB early because of changing weather of mechanical concern (more decisions). The C150 driver will in those 1500 hours experienced shaking knees and dry mouth at least several times because of circumstances that arose unexpectdly such as, weather, mechanical, fuel concern, lost, etc. These things matter and are lessons that will never be forgotten.. I could go on about the importance of time in the saddle and how successful aviating is a continuous chain of decision making where the wrong decision could cost you your life. SIM world is wonderful but you will never kill yourself therefore you will never make life/death decisions.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 00:43
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Isn't is 80 hours to get your MPL?
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 02:49
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The C150 driver will in those 1500 hours experienced shaking knees and dry mouth at least several times because of circumstances that arose unexpectdly such as, weather, mechanical, fuel concern, lost, etc. These things matter and are lessons that will never be forgotten.. I could go on about the importance of time in the saddle and how successful aviating is a continuous chain of decision making where the wrong decision could cost you your life. SIM world is wonderful but you will never kill yourself therefore you will never make life/death decisions.
Yes.

As an owner of a C150, with more than 3000 hours flying it, I was getting complacent. So I went for my helicopter license. I knew a lot about being in the sky already, but those first few solo flights in the helicopter reminded me - it's all me, no one here to fix it if I get it wrong, I am solely responsible for everything which will make this flight safe. The basic fear of getting it wrong makes one a better pilot, that fear over and over makes one better yet, even if those decisions are made while flying a lowly C150! Sure, experience should be had on multiple types, as many as possible, in varying circumstances, I'm not advocating 1000 hour in the circuit in a C150. But, hours of mundane experience flying something, solo, for real, where your decisions have absolute meaning, and you learn from the fear of the real risk of getting it wrong. Then.... you're ready to be a crew member.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 03:28
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR View Post
Yes.

As an owner of a C150, with more than 3000 hours flying it, I was getting complacent. So I went for my helicopter license. I knew a lot about being in the sky already, but those first few solo flights in the helicopter reminded me - it's all me, no one here to fix it if I get it wrong, I am solely responsible for everything which will make this flight safe. The basic fear of getting it wrong makes one a better pilot, that fear over and over makes one better yet, even if those decisions are made while flying a lowly C150! Sure, experience should be had on multiple types, as many as possible, in varying circumstances, I'm not advocating 1000 hour in the circuit in a C150. But, hours of mundane experience flying something, solo, for real, where your decisions have absolute meaning, and you learn from the fear of the real risk of getting it wrong. Then.... you're ready to be a crew member.
Also as the (incidental) owner of a c-150 (as well as a 421 and a few others with (substantially more) than 3k hrs flying them all for fun and (primarily) lucre,
I would posit that 1000 hrs of flying, not when it’s mundane, but when your butt and the freight in the back, rather than a plane full of pax is on the line, (especially in the upper Midwest in the 9 mos that don’t resemble Embry-Riddle weather) would result in a better ultimate pilot.

Last edited by 421dog; 8th Jul 2019 at 03:38.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 05:00
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Originally Posted by alioth View Post
Isn't is 80 hours to get your MPL?
Depends on the program, but the ones I've seen average around 110 hours. Still WAY below the requirement for ANY Commercial or Instrument rating that I know of.

AFAIK, still no REAL path to Captain form the MPL...
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 06:35
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I can tell you from experience they have a real problem with anything turbulence/crosswinds/gusts/thermals on final. Having said that, it gets better and if they trained at a good company they are usually very switched on guys. They’re eventually same or better than anyone else. So there you go
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 06:44
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Originally Posted by Intruder View Post
AFAIK, still no REAL path to Captain form the MPL...
MPL holder can after achieving 1500hrs, including 500hr PICUS (which can be done during line flying by captain signing the logbook) proceed to their ATPL skill test in the sim. If they pass, they've got exactly the same licence as any other ATPL holder, just that it is restricted to multi-pilot operations, unless further single-pilot training is done.

The article should be named "American pilots are the best".

Hours add to experience, yes. But 700hr pilot with 500hr on type will generally be better than 1501hr pilot with 1h on type.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 10:24
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Let's be honest. There are two kinds of people who want higher hour limit. Those who had to go through that to make others suffer too and those who are in business and just want to keep others out.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 14:21
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Originally Posted by Rarife View Post
Let's be honest. There are two kinds of people who want higher hour limit. Those who had to go through that to make others suffer too and those who are in business and just want to keep others out.
Let’s really be honest - there’s more than two kinds. There’s 100,000’s of thousands pilots who think having 250 hr TT large jet FO’s isn’t as safe as passengers deserve.

But the military does it. The counter-argument is -

1. check out some of their accidents and accident statistics.
2. scheduling and SOF’s limit newbies exposure. In the airline business there is none once you’re done with training.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 15:15
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
MPL holder can after achieving 1500hrs, including 500hr PICUS (which can be done during line flying by captain signing the logbook) proceed to their ATPL skill test in the sim. If they pass, they've got exactly the same licence as any other ATPL holder, just that it is restricted to multi-pilot operations, unless further single-pilot training is done.
How many have done it so far?

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Old 8th Jul 2019, 16:06
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Originally Posted by Intruder View Post
How many have done it so far?
MPL is still something new, I wouldn't be surprised the first batch of MPL holders are reaching the requirements at the moment.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 18:50
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A CV with 1500 hrs in Cessna in Europe will be considered a joke and go straight to the trash bin. Most of pilots with that much of irrelevant experience would struggle to adopt and live up to the airline requirements, same goes for the fast jet pilots. Not what many would like to hear but true.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 20:07
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As some users had already mentioned, it's not solely about experience on xyz aircraft(s). It's about
- psychology
- personal factors (stress management, mental strength etc.)
- Basic flying skills
- CRM
- airline training

In Europe many airlines do their own screening with 18 yr candidates direct from high school, train them by their policies and have a success rate of over 90%. Nevertheless, there are also some ready entries, but they also have to pass the screening.

This works fine with KLM, LH (Group), IB e.g.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 20:52
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
MPL holder can after achieving 1500hrs, including 500hr PICUS (which can be done during line flying by captain signing the logbook) proceed to their ATPL skill test in the sim. If they pass, they've got exactly the same licence as any other ATPL holder, just that it is restricted to multi-pilot operations, unless further single-pilot training is done.

The article should be named "American pilots are the best".

Hours add to experience, yes. But 700hr pilot with 500hr on type will generally be better than 1501hr pilot with 1h on type.
Who are the lucky souls who get fly with them when they're at 300/100?
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 20:53
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Originally Posted by CargoOne View Post
A CV with 1500 hrs in Cessna in Europe will be considered a joke and go straight to the trash bin. Most of pilots with that much of irrelevant experience would struggle to adopt and live up to the airline requirements, same goes for the fast jet pilots. Not what many would like to hear but true.
LOL!, management or owner of MPL school?
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 21:16
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
The article should be named "American pilots are the best".

Hours add to experience, yes. But 700hr pilot with 500hr on type will generally be better than 1501hr pilot with 1h on type.
To qualify for an ATP, one needs:

1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.

(2) 100 hours of night flight time.

(3) 50 hours of flight time in the class of airplane for the rating sought. A maximum of 25 hours of training in a full flight simulatorrepresenting the class of airplane for the rating sought may be credited toward the flight time requirement of this paragraph if the training was accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter. A flight training device or aviation training device may not be used to satisfy this requirement.

(4) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:

(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(4)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a full flight simulator or flight training device.

(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a full flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument
flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(4) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a full flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a full flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

(5) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or when serving as a required second in command flightcrew member performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least -

(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and

(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.

(6) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section or § 61.160 may be obtained in a full flight simulator or flight training device provided the device represents an airplane and the aeronautical experiencewas accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter.
So yeah, 1500 hours of a C150 won't make you qualified for an ATP.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 21:43
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Controversial discussion.

Very true, I have seen many very bad cadets that get nowadays released to the line here in Europe(as an example) forcing normal line captains being more of a linetraining daddy then a Captain. On the other hand I have seen US american "lease" pilots supporting some of my former companies(90's but as well early/mid 2000's) over the busy summer period(and to enable employees to have some holidays with their families during the summer season) . Some of this "Captains" had significant troubles flying complex SID's which are quiet common here in Europe(e.g. some of the "famous" french departures out of Orly or CDG, but as well in the UK(if they do not put you immediately on radar vectors), or for instance various airports(e.g. Innsbruck, Salzburg) in the alps. This was even more complicated when soley based on conventional navigation, nowadays everybody flies the magenta line, so buhu. AFAIK departures in the US are mainly flown on (radar)headings(correct me if this is not the case anymore). If someone is not able to fly a complex SID in raw data it is barely legit to call them "best pilots"(which might apply for 90% of modern pilots to be honest).

In a nutshell. I have seen very experienced pilots being "crappy", on the other hand I had some excellent guys with only 300 hours. It all depends on the individual. Flying is not something someone can "learn"(even some P2F schools are trying to sell exactly this) - no, you need to have it in you(have it "in your ass" if you want). That is why modern aviation is in my eyes very unsafe - everyone tries, many fail, still a lot who are not supposed to make it into airliner cockpits.

The "old" system, especially here in Europe, was much better. Nearly every airline had it's own school and trained their future captains by themself, choose them from the beginning, trained them well, gave them years of experience on the left hand side along with Captains with significant experience(as well back then there where some on the LHS that did not belong there but the number was much lower). Now? Now they upgrade them with 3000 hours and a lot are just not ready.

Experience nowadays is replaced with VERY strong SOP's. The problem is - SOP cannot cover all possible problems one may experience in aviation.
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