The F/O taking over Control!?
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411A highlights a very pertinent point in respect of standardisation problems in airlines which are wont to use short term contract pilots.
My limited observations suggest that there are two effective ways to get around this difficulty
(a) provide an appropriate subset of the normal intake and/or upgrade training to permit the contractor to get up to speed with local customs and procedures before release to the line ... I suspect that, in the modern cost driven world, this might not always be the case in practice .. and is, of course, a contentious issue if the contract period is comparatively short.
(b) if the contractors come from the same environment, run the contract pilots as a quasi-separate operation so that crew communcation and co-ordination problems are minimised. Although this will involve an increased level of administrative and other workload, I observed this approach to work well during a recent contract exercise. This is especially useful if the contract group does not have, as a first language, the same tongue as the contracting airline's pilots.
My limited observations suggest that there are two effective ways to get around this difficulty
(a) provide an appropriate subset of the normal intake and/or upgrade training to permit the contractor to get up to speed with local customs and procedures before release to the line ... I suspect that, in the modern cost driven world, this might not always be the case in practice .. and is, of course, a contentious issue if the contract period is comparatively short.
(b) if the contractors come from the same environment, run the contract pilots as a quasi-separate operation so that crew communcation and co-ordination problems are minimised. Although this will involve an increased level of administrative and other workload, I observed this approach to work well during a recent contract exercise. This is especially useful if the contract group does not have, as a first language, the same tongue as the contracting airline's pilots.
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Yes,
With TAT in France 1990/92, 40 Australians, 40 Canadians, separated as individual groups in the French Company, only flew with our "Own Kind" so to speak and worked well.
One of the better jobs I have been fortunate to have been involved with.
Any others out there? we are scattered to the 4 winds now.
With TAT in France 1990/92, 40 Australians, 40 Canadians, separated as individual groups in the French Company, only flew with our "Own Kind" so to speak and worked well.
One of the better jobs I have been fortunate to have been involved with.
Any others out there? we are scattered to the 4 winds now.
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Question to 411A
Please tell me which airline you run so I know which to aviod.
That way hopefully 411A's airline will be unable to recruit, and eventually he'll end his 37 years in aviation and the skies will be a safer place.
I'm sorry, but 411A you really haven't got a clue - there just isn't a place for people like you in 21st century aviation.
Captain is legal commander - good ones know their limitations as well as those of ALL their crew. 411A - if you don't know, or won't admit to, your own limitations then you are a danger.
Is he just playing the devil's advocate or is he really so bigoted?
That way hopefully 411A's airline will be unable to recruit, and eventually he'll end his 37 years in aviation and the skies will be a safer place.
I'm sorry, but 411A you really haven't got a clue - there just isn't a place for people like you in 21st century aviation.
Captain is legal commander - good ones know their limitations as well as those of ALL their crew. 411A - if you don't know, or won't admit to, your own limitations then you are a danger.
Is he just playing the devil's advocate or is he really so bigoted?
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1300+ posts since march 2000 ? Wander what company gives you so much spare time to write all these posts, or is it all he does in his spare time ?
Something here reminds me of the famous "Guvnor" ...
Something here reminds me of the famous "Guvnor" ...
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Not to worry B clam, nearly all of our initial crew have been selected already, all have lots of heavy jet experience...and what's even more scary (for you, perhaps?) is that our DirOps, Chief Pilot and Chief Flight Engineer (most older than me) all think the way I do. Just don't think you would fit in...sorry sport.
The drop,
As I am one of the majority shareholders, I take whatever time is necessary....but that time will be rather limited shortly for PPRuNe due to my location overseas.
The drop,
As I am one of the majority shareholders, I take whatever time is necessary....but that time will be rather limited shortly for PPRuNe due to my location overseas.
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411A,
Do you remember Gulf Air A320 crash on the 23rd Aug. 2000 or have you heard about it??
I knew the Captain and he had a similar attitude as the one you showing us now.
Please read the CVR transcript (if you havent already), you might learn some thing and appreciate that you are still alive!!!
You can read the CVR transcript at
http://www.bahrainairport.com/pdf/CVR%20Transcrip.pdf
Do you remember Gulf Air A320 crash on the 23rd Aug. 2000 or have you heard about it??
I knew the Captain and he had a similar attitude as the one you showing us now.
Please read the CVR transcript (if you havent already), you might learn some thing and appreciate that you are still alive!!!
You can read the CVR transcript at
http://www.bahrainairport.com/pdf/CVR%20Transcrip.pdf
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Of cousre jaguar340, you are completly ignoring the fact that the concerned Captain you mention had minimal experience, problems with his training and ability to pass required checks, and seemingly was promoted to command in spite of these short commings by management intent on promoting locals irregardless of their experience.
Bit like comparing apples and oranges, wouldn't you say?
Next question?
Bit like comparing apples and oranges, wouldn't you say?
Next question?
Last edited by 411A; 8th Jul 2002 at 13:35.
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As I am one of the majority shareholders, I take whatever time is necessary....but that time will be rather limited shortly for PPRuNe due to my location overseas.
Last edited by Captain Stable; 8th Jul 2002 at 13:48.
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411A, I think you mean "regardless" rather than "irregardless". The question that immediately comes to mind is how a junior, possibly very new, F/O is supposed to know how a captain did on his last checkride, why he was promoted.
So no, I don't feel it's comparing apples with any other fruit. Just comparing a good apple with one with a maggot in it - how do you tell?
So no, I don't feel it's comparing apples with any other fruit. Just comparing a good apple with one with a maggot in it - how do you tell?
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Just got a wee bit carried away by this persons seemingly total misaprehension of what CRM is..
But I do now realise that heīs better of in a single pilot aircraft..
However I'm still looking forward..
But I do now realise that heīs better of in a single pilot aircraft..
However I'm still looking forward..
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411A, is that the only way you could become a captain, to buy a company? And I feel sorry for the new guys, if the whole management are thinking along your lines...
And still looking forward...
And still looking forward...
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Capt'n Stable
Unfortunately sometimes you can't tell.
And therein lies the problem. If the company does NOT have an excellent training program, does not look at their new Commanders VERY carefully, and above all does not roster the new Captains with experienced First Officers....then the problems often have a nasty turn.
Company training programs need to be designed so that there is positively no chance that a weak guy slips through. Favoritism or the idea that "some" must be promoted to fill some misguided "quota" must be stamped out, pronto.
Company management have a responsibility to ensure that their new Captains are the best that can be had. To do less is gross negligence IMHO.
Unfortunately sometimes you can't tell.
And therein lies the problem. If the company does NOT have an excellent training program, does not look at their new Commanders VERY carefully, and above all does not roster the new Captains with experienced First Officers....then the problems often have a nasty turn.
Company training programs need to be designed so that there is positively no chance that a weak guy slips through. Favoritism or the idea that "some" must be promoted to fill some misguided "quota" must be stamped out, pronto.
Company management have a responsibility to ensure that their new Captains are the best that can be had. To do less is gross negligence IMHO.
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OK, I won't talk about short memory again
411A, you asked for a next question: In the GulfAir case, with the inexperienced and badly trained captain.... how is an FO to reckognize that before he commences the flight?
I most certainly don't ask for training records if I start a new 5-days-tour with an unknown captain. Therefore, I'm always on the watch, which is my JOB btw, for weird deviations. No sense in dying, cos the captain thinks he can manage without a goaround (remember Alitalia DC9?) or because I would be too much impressed with the captain being experienced (and diabetic)... the fox has got it wired 411A!
P77
P.S. Honestly, I think I'm too young to die yet, and so are my passengers. Besides, I have my ATPL, and a lot of experience, which is not as much as the captain, I admit, but it suffices to be able to see if something (or someone) is really wrong or not.
411A, you asked for a next question: In the GulfAir case, with the inexperienced and badly trained captain.... how is an FO to reckognize that before he commences the flight?
I most certainly don't ask for training records if I start a new 5-days-tour with an unknown captain. Therefore, I'm always on the watch, which is my JOB btw, for weird deviations. No sense in dying, cos the captain thinks he can manage without a goaround (remember Alitalia DC9?) or because I would be too much impressed with the captain being experienced (and diabetic)... the fox has got it wired 411A!
P77
P.S. Honestly, I think I'm too young to die yet, and so are my passengers. Besides, I have my ATPL, and a lot of experience, which is not as much as the captain, I admit, but it suffices to be able to see if something (or someone) is really wrong or not.
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Pegasus77
Believe me, if you worked in the same company, on the same fleet, you would know.
If by some chance, you did not recognise the name, nothing preventing you from asking the guy how long on the fleet.
If you find yourself in a "problem" area, go to the fleet manager because that is what he is there for.
Not really all that difficult.
Believe me, if you worked in the same company, on the same fleet, you would know.
If by some chance, you did not recognise the name, nothing preventing you from asking the guy how long on the fleet.
If you find yourself in a "problem" area, go to the fleet manager because that is what he is there for.
Not really all that difficult.
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Going back to the original question, I have never had to take over from a Captain, however I have lost count of the number of mistakes that different one's have made, and which i have picked up on. I have probably made an equal number of mistakes that a Captain has picked me up on. None have been life threatening, but my point is, we are all human, we all make mistakes. That is why the company employs 2 pilots and not 1!
As someone says, whether to take control depends on the urgency of the situation. If a GPWS 'PULL UP' alert sounded (and below MSA in IMC for instance), then if the Captain did nothing, I would have no hesitation in taking over. Likewise for a windshear or TCAS RA (Should the F/O have taken control off the Russian Captain in last week's mid air collision for instance?).
However, in less urgent situations, you have more scope to be diplomatic, and voice your concerns if you think LHS is doing something that might become unsafe.
Always a difficult call, and whilst the Catain may legally depart from SOP's / JAROPS in an emergency, he is otherwise exceeding his legal authority by doing so, and it is the F/Os responsibility to say something.
Luckily I work for an operator with very good SOPs and very standard crews, so rarely have any cause to be concerned.
As someone says, whether to take control depends on the urgency of the situation. If a GPWS 'PULL UP' alert sounded (and below MSA in IMC for instance), then if the Captain did nothing, I would have no hesitation in taking over. Likewise for a windshear or TCAS RA (Should the F/O have taken control off the Russian Captain in last week's mid air collision for instance?).
However, in less urgent situations, you have more scope to be diplomatic, and voice your concerns if you think LHS is doing something that might become unsafe.
Always a difficult call, and whilst the Catain may legally depart from SOP's / JAROPS in an emergency, he is otherwise exceeding his legal authority by doing so, and it is the F/Os responsibility to say something.
Luckily I work for an operator with very good SOPs and very standard crews, so rarely have any cause to be concerned.