The F/O taking over Control!?
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Jetdriver,
Exactly my point.
A few First Officers still do not appreciate that the company ASSIGNED a Commander to the flight for a very definate reason, and that he has ultimate (as in legal) responsibility for the actions of the entire crew.
Does this mean that the Commander should not consult (and listen to) the concerns of other crew members? Certainly not.
Does this mean that other crew members should not communicate their concerns to the Commander. Again, certainly not.
What it does mean is that the company EXPECTS the Commander
to operate the aeroplane according to the specified procedures (including absolutely input from other crew members) and use his best judgement during that operation.
That is WHY he is the Commander, and paid the big bucks.
In over 30 years of professional flying I have received only one complaint from a First Officer, the company investigated same, found it had no merit, reassigned the First Officer to another fleet, for an extended period. This was a management decision, not mine, because this particular guy was a known troublemaker.
This is as it should be, because management has a responsibility to shareholders and regulatory authorities.
In short, someone has to be in charge, and it ain't the co-pilot.
Exactly my point.
A few First Officers still do not appreciate that the company ASSIGNED a Commander to the flight for a very definate reason, and that he has ultimate (as in legal) responsibility for the actions of the entire crew.
Does this mean that the Commander should not consult (and listen to) the concerns of other crew members? Certainly not.
Does this mean that other crew members should not communicate their concerns to the Commander. Again, certainly not.
What it does mean is that the company EXPECTS the Commander
to operate the aeroplane according to the specified procedures (including absolutely input from other crew members) and use his best judgement during that operation.
That is WHY he is the Commander, and paid the big bucks.
In over 30 years of professional flying I have received only one complaint from a First Officer, the company investigated same, found it had no merit, reassigned the First Officer to another fleet, for an extended period. This was a management decision, not mine, because this particular guy was a known troublemaker.
This is as it should be, because management has a responsibility to shareholders and regulatory authorities.
In short, someone has to be in charge, and it ain't the co-pilot.
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I was always under the impression that Co-pilots / F/O's were there to learn from their peers. (On the basis that generally they do not have the hours in their Logbooks are not as wise and maybe lack a few grey hairs).
That's not to say that the actions of one's peers should never be questioned, however, reading this and other burgeoning threads, there seem to be many keen to userp the authority placed on the commander's shoulders
That's not to say that the actions of one's peers should never be questioned, however, reading this and other burgeoning threads, there seem to be many keen to userp the authority placed on the commander's shoulders
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I think I would be very worried if any F/O was "keen to usurp" his Captain's authority, or if he was not interested in learning. I was always taught that an F/O is a Captain in Training.
However, I would be similarly worried if any F/O were blindly to say to himself "It's all right, he knows what he's doing" if he sees the captain having made a mistake, pacify his worries with how much he's learning, and spend the rest of his (suddenly shortened) life not doing anything further for fear of "usurping the Captain's authority".
If he does anything you don't understand, question it. If you don't get a satisfactory answer, express your worry. If you still don't get a good enough explanation, express your concern LOUDLY AND FORCIBLY.
When all else fails, take control.
Sharpshot, you need to learn the difference between an FO learning, respecting the Captain's authority and allowing him to make the decisions on the one hand, and being subservient, passive, compliant and failing to be part of the team on the other.
However, I would be similarly worried if any F/O were blindly to say to himself "It's all right, he knows what he's doing" if he sees the captain having made a mistake, pacify his worries with how much he's learning, and spend the rest of his (suddenly shortened) life not doing anything further for fear of "usurping the Captain's authority".
If he does anything you don't understand, question it. If you don't get a satisfactory answer, express your worry. If you still don't get a good enough explanation, express your concern LOUDLY AND FORCIBLY.
When all else fails, take control.
Sharpshot, you need to learn the difference between an FO learning, respecting the Captain's authority and allowing him to make the decisions on the one hand, and being subservient, passive, compliant and failing to be part of the team on the other.
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You perplex me, 411A. Aligning yourself with the anti-pilot 'junta', yet bragging of 37 years of experience as a commander. Standing alone, you provoke (on the majority of occasions) thread creep for reasons I can only fathom as being a fondness for your own voice.
Perhaps you could enlighten me? Why is it when a direct question is asked for justifying your extreme views, you more often than not, ignore them.
Let us imagine PPrune was a 'highbrow' debating program on TV. Do you think if you were a guest and you voiced extreme views with no justification you would be invited back? You are a tabloidesque and desperately opinionated.
Perhaps the reason you return to fight pointless battles with individuals who out-rank you in intellect is that you can't get away with bullying in your work place! Your contributions to this thread would back this theory up.
Perhaps you could enlighten me? Why is it when a direct question is asked for justifying your extreme views, you more often than not, ignore them.
Let us imagine PPrune was a 'highbrow' debating program on TV. Do you think if you were a guest and you voiced extreme views with no justification you would be invited back? You are a tabloidesque and desperately opinionated.
Perhaps the reason you return to fight pointless battles with individuals who out-rank you in intellect is that you can't get away with bullying in your work place! Your contributions to this thread would back this theory up.
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In the good old days it was not uncommon to have a 'Landing Drink', (or two), this would not happen until everything was shut down and the pax disembarked etc. no chance of having to work again for the participating crew. Such drinks were usually initiated by the IFS/Chief etc. and enjoyed by all.
It would have been possible to have been totally legal throughout the flight from LA, enjoyed a landing drink and then got 'done' whilst driving.
It would have been possible to have been totally legal throughout the flight from LA, enjoyed a landing drink and then got 'done' whilst driving.
SkyGod
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Oh yeah, remember the landing drinks in the old days:
In Hong Kong, after long flight from India, parking brake set, F/E pours drinks on captains command, but with no APU on the DC-8, the Nr. 4 engine is still spinning. I was a brand new F/O and did what I was being told to do.
Not a healty practice in the long run.
The road to a career as a taxi driver could indeed be very short.
Then there are the storys of the really old days when the DC-4s returned from long 2 week trips half way around the globe.
Time to celebrate when arriving home for sure.
Sometimes the celebration in the cockpit would start on final approach.
One time the command to pour another drink was done with the mike keyed.
The crew was met at the gate with police and breath testing gear.
Not any more, no even smoking on the flight deck, no single female horny F/As either.
Old grandmas or homos in the back.
Aye, the good old days...
In Hong Kong, after long flight from India, parking brake set, F/E pours drinks on captains command, but with no APU on the DC-8, the Nr. 4 engine is still spinning. I was a brand new F/O and did what I was being told to do.
Not a healty practice in the long run.
The road to a career as a taxi driver could indeed be very short.
Then there are the storys of the really old days when the DC-4s returned from long 2 week trips half way around the globe.
Time to celebrate when arriving home for sure.
Sometimes the celebration in the cockpit would start on final approach.
One time the command to pour another drink was done with the mike keyed.
The crew was met at the gate with police and breath testing gear.
Not any more, no even smoking on the flight deck, no single female horny F/As either.
Old grandmas or homos in the back.
Aye, the good old days...
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Ah yes Tower Dog...the good 'ole days.
On my first approach to HKG (with a check Captain in the OBS seat) the Purser comes up and asks...what kind of reverse thrust will you require Captain? The check Captain mentions that ...hey, come to think of it, perhaps four fingers would be appropriate...as I am busy with the CC NDB approach, I don't think much about this, as heading toward Stonecutters in the driving rain at 750 feet has got my full attention. Upon parking, four fingers are served up, Jack Danials black label...really nice folks in the good 'ole days.
Land ASAP,
In my present company, as I am "the boss", things are done my way, and the Board of Directors says so.
Next question?
On my first approach to HKG (with a check Captain in the OBS seat) the Purser comes up and asks...what kind of reverse thrust will you require Captain? The check Captain mentions that ...hey, come to think of it, perhaps four fingers would be appropriate...as I am busy with the CC NDB approach, I don't think much about this, as heading toward Stonecutters in the driving rain at 750 feet has got my full attention. Upon parking, four fingers are served up, Jack Danials black label...really nice folks in the good 'ole days.
Land ASAP,
In my present company, as I am "the boss", things are done my way, and the Board of Directors says so.
Next question?
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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Times have changed to be sure.
Threaded a diesel eight once upon a time through tall tropical storms onto a poorly lit strip in deepest darkest Africa, landing drinks were present in the cockpit before rollout was complete, bless the loadie.
After the GPU was connected and the last engine spooled down, a deep silence settled over the bug-infested patch, crew bus didn’t show until dawn. Seems the relevant locals forgot we were supposed to be there, probably because we were four days late, not, in my opinion, a significant passage of time in those parts.
Anyhow, one bottle led to the next, amazing really what freight animals carry in their nav bags, damn near solved all the world’s most pressing problems.
Ahh, to be young, fit n’ feisty again, what I would give for a video of that liquid bunch of disheveled cackling old hens pouring out of the ship on that hot and moist African morn.
Threaded a diesel eight once upon a time through tall tropical storms onto a poorly lit strip in deepest darkest Africa, landing drinks were present in the cockpit before rollout was complete, bless the loadie.
After the GPU was connected and the last engine spooled down, a deep silence settled over the bug-infested patch, crew bus didn’t show until dawn. Seems the relevant locals forgot we were supposed to be there, probably because we were four days late, not, in my opinion, a significant passage of time in those parts.
Anyhow, one bottle led to the next, amazing really what freight animals carry in their nav bags, damn near solved all the world’s most pressing problems.
Ahh, to be young, fit n’ feisty again, what I would give for a video of that liquid bunch of disheveled cackling old hens pouring out of the ship on that hot and moist African morn.
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My guess is that 411A is just very proud of his 4th stripe, and he goes to bed wearing his uniform and sleeping on the left side of the bed.
In a very few cases the captain didn't want his control to be taken away and started a fight. In such a case the strongest pilot wins.
In one case after hitting the FO in the face the captain realised that what he was doing didn't add much to safety, said he was sorry, and helped the FO out as PNF.
From experience I can tell you, taking over control is not the funniest or nicest thing to do, and I would only do it if the airplane would be in immediate danger.
Like already stated in this thread, in more than 80% of the accidents, where the captain and the FO had different opinions, the FO was right, and if he had taken over control, all those accidents wouldn't have happened.
Sorry 411A, even you, as a big shot captain who is given command of a real aircraft by his company, are human, and humans make mistakes sometimes.
P77
In a very few cases the captain didn't want his control to be taken away and started a fight. In such a case the strongest pilot wins.
In one case after hitting the FO in the face the captain realised that what he was doing didn't add much to safety, said he was sorry, and helped the FO out as PNF.
From experience I can tell you, taking over control is not the funniest or nicest thing to do, and I would only do it if the airplane would be in immediate danger.
Like already stated in this thread, in more than 80% of the accidents, where the captain and the FO had different opinions, the FO was right, and if he had taken over control, all those accidents wouldn't have happened.
Sorry 411A, even you, as a big shot captain who is given command of a real aircraft by his company, are human, and humans make mistakes sometimes.
P77
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frontdeboeuf, please be very careful about posting inflammatory and possibly racist comments here.
A F/O taking control is not an act of mutiny. He is not, therefore, to be equated to Fletcher Christian.
A Captain is not, by any means, always right. Check the Alitalia DC9 incident at Zurich in 1990.
A F/O is not, by any means, always wrong. Check Tenerife.
What we are considering here is safety, not a power struggle. Please remember that.
A F/O taking control is not an act of mutiny. He is not, therefore, to be equated to Fletcher Christian.
A Captain is not, by any means, always right. Check the Alitalia DC9 incident at Zurich in 1990.
A F/O is not, by any means, always wrong. Check Tenerife.
What we are considering here is safety, not a power struggle. Please remember that.
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These interview questions are fine and dandy in an office environment where we can be brave, but in reality, the Copilot taking control from a Captain is a very very tricky thing indeed, and should only be done if lives are imminently at risk. That is because if a situation has deteriorated we are dealing with overstress in the cockpit and behaviour is now at it's most unpredictable, from denial "I have it!" when he clearly has not, to freezing on the controls. The aim surely is to restabilise the situation.
Perhaps a more constructive approach is to immediately start giving defined goals that the Captain can action promptly, eg reduce speed to xxxkts NOW, or stabilise the aircraft by 500 or we should go around. BUT DO IT EARLY. There are few accidents that occur by surprise and a rapidly deteriorating situation should be arrested early. It's no use mumbling about I'm not happy and then preparing to snatch the controls because in past accidents experience this doesn't work. Copilot is there to HELP the PF for goodness' sake, so do it by guiding him through, then at least there will be 2 guys flying not one. I am reminded of the SAS MD-80 dec 1991 where an assisting Cpt brilliantly coached the Cpt through JUST by telling him repeatedly "Look ahead" and just held this man together successfully, and of many many fatalities where the copilot did nothing positive, although there was plenty of time to rescue the situation.
As far as drunkeness is concerned, just imagine that your family is on the same flight...........you don't fly, as the 2 US pilots recently found out.
Those that are strutting their stuff about Commander this and that might be interested in how a Captain could operate a flight effectively. The Captain has the authority for the flight which is constant. However leadership depends on who has the most experience or knowledge of the situation NOT necessarily the Captain. A great captain shows his strength by allowing his crew to take the lead under his authority for better management of the flight, whether it is simple guidance in an unfamiliar taxiway,or airport, where valuable input must always be respected, or a critical situation where the copilot has spotted something or understands something the captain has not. In no way is a Captain abdicating his authority by taking his lead from the copilot and he will in turn earn respect from all. The safety of the flight is all. Let's hear no more of the solo Captain and standby copilot. I thought this had almost disappeared.
Perhaps a more constructive approach is to immediately start giving defined goals that the Captain can action promptly, eg reduce speed to xxxkts NOW, or stabilise the aircraft by 500 or we should go around. BUT DO IT EARLY. There are few accidents that occur by surprise and a rapidly deteriorating situation should be arrested early. It's no use mumbling about I'm not happy and then preparing to snatch the controls because in past accidents experience this doesn't work. Copilot is there to HELP the PF for goodness' sake, so do it by guiding him through, then at least there will be 2 guys flying not one. I am reminded of the SAS MD-80 dec 1991 where an assisting Cpt brilliantly coached the Cpt through JUST by telling him repeatedly "Look ahead" and just held this man together successfully, and of many many fatalities where the copilot did nothing positive, although there was plenty of time to rescue the situation.
As far as drunkeness is concerned, just imagine that your family is on the same flight...........you don't fly, as the 2 US pilots recently found out.
Those that are strutting their stuff about Commander this and that might be interested in how a Captain could operate a flight effectively. The Captain has the authority for the flight which is constant. However leadership depends on who has the most experience or knowledge of the situation NOT necessarily the Captain. A great captain shows his strength by allowing his crew to take the lead under his authority for better management of the flight, whether it is simple guidance in an unfamiliar taxiway,or airport, where valuable input must always be respected, or a critical situation where the copilot has spotted something or understands something the captain has not. In no way is a Captain abdicating his authority by taking his lead from the copilot and he will in turn earn respect from all. The safety of the flight is all. Let's hear no more of the solo Captain and standby copilot. I thought this had almost disappeared.
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I wonder why some junior members here have difficulity understanding that...
The co-pilot is SECOND in command. Hello? That is number TWO.
The company says so.
The appropriate regulatory authority says so.
The traveling public certainly expects so.
Do they NOT understand?
Captains in training?....From some comments here...hardly.
When their time comes...maybe, IF they can pass the upgrade assessment, certainly NOT before.
And ALL companies have this assessment requirement, whether the co-pilots like it or not.
Them's the rules guys, like it or lump it.
The co-pilot is SECOND in command. Hello? That is number TWO.
The company says so.
The appropriate regulatory authority says so.
The traveling public certainly expects so.
Do they NOT understand?
Captains in training?....From some comments here...hardly.
When their time comes...maybe, IF they can pass the upgrade assessment, certainly NOT before.
And ALL companies have this assessment requirement, whether the co-pilots like it or not.
Them's the rules guys, like it or lump it.
Last edited by 411A; 3rd Jul 2002 at 22:28.
Riddle me this 411, is there ever a time that a FO should take the controls? Short of a medical condition or things of that nature. Have you ever had a FO save your bacon? Say no and I know your a liar.
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From the 'vastly greater experienced than me, obviously' 411A;
"I wonder why some junior members here have difficulity understanding that...
The co-pilot is SECOND in command. Hello? That is number TWO. "
My reply; yes, I am a FO, and I understand my place in the grand scheme of things, but I want to live long enough to be a captain, and if you, or any other captain ever tries to kill me with their flying (or lack of it), I WILL take control. I have not done it yet, but have come close to it once. Call me a coward, but I didn't want to land on a taxiway, and the captain had that bunny in the headlights look about him. EVERY FO worth their salt is a competent copilot right up till the day when they have to make the decision 'do I want to embarrass the captain and take control from him or do a want to be a big greasy stain on the tarmac?'
411A, if you were that great a captain you would certainly be showing a much greater understanding of CRM than you are doing.
"I wonder why some junior members here have difficulity understanding that...
The co-pilot is SECOND in command. Hello? That is number TWO. "
My reply; yes, I am a FO, and I understand my place in the grand scheme of things, but I want to live long enough to be a captain, and if you, or any other captain ever tries to kill me with their flying (or lack of it), I WILL take control. I have not done it yet, but have come close to it once. Call me a coward, but I didn't want to land on a taxiway, and the captain had that bunny in the headlights look about him. EVERY FO worth their salt is a competent copilot right up till the day when they have to make the decision 'do I want to embarrass the captain and take control from him or do a want to be a big greasy stain on the tarmac?'
411A, if you were that great a captain you would certainly be showing a much greater understanding of CRM than you are doing.