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F/O reports incompetent captain in Emirates

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F/O reports incompetent captain in Emirates

Old 3rd Jun 2002, 14:21
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Thumbs down Backstabbing F/O in Emirates

Just heard an Emirates F/O reported a Captain after a flight, for beeing incompetent and so on.
He didn't have the balls to talk to the Captain personally.
I flew with the PIC a few times and he is a great guy and an excellent pilot.

Time to command in EK is about 3 years, good luck to the sad F/O he'll need it during his upgrade.
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Old 3rd Jun 2002, 15:11
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Angry

That is really behind the back stuff. I don't know what the procedure is at Emirates but in my airline if you are going to report another crewmember the other pilot would have to be told and sign the report as well. Doesn't mean he agrees to what is reported but just so he knows that an incident involving him is being raised.
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Old 3rd Jun 2002, 15:43
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In 37 years of professional flying, only one time did a co-pilot complain...directly to the fleet manager.
The fleet manager called me in and asked....what about this report? So I mentioned about the co-pilots lack of situational awareness, missed radio calls, improper company required callouts....etc, and well, no surprise really, the guy was sent back to the B737....and there he stayed....for three years. Many of the Captains there would not give him any flying...for a long time.
The necessary requirement of course, is management to back up their Commanders, in these situations.
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 05:58
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The necessary requirement of course, is management to back up their Commanders, in these situations.
And if the copilots comments are correct? I think that there is often more than meet's the eye.


Many of the Captains there would not give him any flying...for a long time.
Stupid!
 
Old 4th Jun 2002, 06:15
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The concerned co-pilot was later dis-missed from the company...it was found out that he was a troublemaker, not uncommon amoungst air crew....especially copilots who think they are command material...but later prove otherwise.
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 06:57
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411A, that sounds ridiculous. I'm glad you were on the right end of the stick and that F/O reportedly turned out to be a trouble maker anyway, but what if you were flying with another captain? And the other guy is making a big mess out of it? Which captain is the company supposed to back? The most senior guy? Or the guy who is best friends with the chief pilot?

The latter will most likely happen.

I don't speak for myself but I can imagine that an F/O is afraid of the consequences if he confronts the captain directly.

In our company, there are places where you can drop a complaint anonymously. Say, if someone harrasses you and clearly dislikes you, you can report that without that person knowing. You can do this if you're afraid of what that person will do to you if his (or her) actions will end up getting that person sacked.

Personally, I'll tell the fellow pilot if there's something about his or her actions that's unclear to me (to put it diplomatically) unless he's clearly deranged and psychotic.
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 07:13
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I am an ATC, but this situation is too interesting to just monitor.

A couple of things...

#1. No individual, irrespective of seniority, experience, culture, nationality or history is more important than flight safety.

#2. There is a catch 22 in reporting or (not reporting) your flight-deck partner, on the one side, you may be cutting a rod for your own (or their) back, on the other side, their continued (suposed) wrong doing may cause an incident or accident that could lead to the loss of life.

#3. Clearly, if there is a problem, then something needs to be done about it.

#4. Perhaps the solution lies in Confidential Reporting System, where no names are stated, and the information becomes public (internal to the airline crews) record every few months. This way, when Captain X reads the report, he may identify this as being his own behaviour and adjust accordingly. Also, (non involved) Captain Y or F/O Z may become aware of tendencies, and be on the look-out for them.

#5. If sufficient simialar reports are recieved, it may indicate to management a tendency amongst crews, or highlight a shortcomming in the Airline CRM training.

Lastly, any statement that starts with "I heard that ........" should be taken with a pinch of salt, there is always more (or less) than meets the eye (or is passed on as hear-say).

+++ No offense intended to anyone here +++

Dubai ATC'er
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 07:53
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Arrow

Would you say the content of your postings here on PPRuNe have generally shown you to be a tolerant and non-abrasive individual, 411A ?

Again, your statement, "especially copilots who think they are command material... appears to me either extremely naieve, or you have ignored/resisted any CRM training given. In your day, YOU were God in the aircraft with the F/O there to be "seen, but not heard". Correct?

Companies employ First Officers as future Captains, they are there to learn and build experience, to ask advice and to offer an opinion, as well as to MONITOR the safe operation of each flight.
Even YOU made mistakes, 411a - although I'm sure that you're hard pressed to remember any!

Fortunately for the passengers, the airlines, and the insurance companies, there are far fewer Tyrants in the lhs today than there were when you flew professionally. Crews have learnt the value of working as a TEAM, and the DANGER of NOT sharing opinions.

Did YOU ever consider yourself the "square peg in the round hole", 411A? Again, I venture that you would answer "No" to that question.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in EVERY way.

At your late stage in life, 411A here's a little advice from someone with 7 years less in the industry than you - Try talking WITH people, not AT them.
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 07:57
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Er, specifically what was the complaint about? Inaccurate flying? Making a balls-up of the landing? Blatant disregard for SOPs/ATC procedures? Flying into TS? Busting limitations/minimums? Flying when drunk? One-man shows? Or just some petty rantings from a juvenile F/O? The exact nature of this case does have a bearing on who's right & who's wrong.
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 08:23
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Is this PPRUNE member 411a for real?

Do we still have these attitudes?

Does he tell his F/O to just shut-up, look out of the window and say nothing to nobody?
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 09:00
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What nationality was the fo in question.
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 09:03
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Is it just me, or did 411a go to the same charm school as The Govner?? He is sounding more and more like him every day!
Eff Oh.
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 11:01
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This might be a good thread for the newly created CRM forum if only to warn new co-pilots that in spite of the introduction of CRM/MCC training the industry unfortunately still has flight crew members such as 411A.
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 13:15
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cant believe this guy reported the Captain directly to management without either discussing the problem post flight
or using the confidential reporting system. Even if they had a disagreement during a flight or not.This is not the way things should be done in a multi cultural environment like Emirates. I hope his skills are commensurate with the high standards he has set.Good luck to the next guy he has to fly with.(
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 14:59
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Hmm, well the sad truth usually comes out in the end....and sometimes results in...shortened careers.
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 15:08
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Thumbs down

Sad day for Emirates flight deck crew.
If you have a problem with someone, sort it out with THAT person, don't drag management into it unless absolutley necessary. Not wearing a jacket and cap do NOT fall into the "ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY" category.

Seriously BAD career move!


Reporting behind someones' back was a right I previously though was reserved for our cabin crew!
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 15:11
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411A

Oh, .... I forgot to mention, isn't funny how 411A seems to get attracted to ANY negative EK post like a fly to sh!t ?
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 15:33
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Thumbs down

Very bad form from the F/O. I do not know what he is trying to achieve, other than the response indicated so far on this forum and the Emirates private forum. Sorry old boy, but know you have to live with this!! And hopefully one day when and if you get your command, maybe someone else, just like you, drops you in the s***!!
A sad day for the South African community in Emirates, who generally are a good bunch to work with. I certainly hope someone has actually spoken to this turkey and advise him on how CRM actually works. Anyway, he now has to go to work and face every scenario. Better not make any minor mistakes my friend. Good Luck to you and the way you went about shaping your own future. I look forward to flying with you.
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 19:02
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I tend to be a reader (lurker) rather than a poster, however after reading 411A's comments the urge to post became awfully strong.
411A
When you were discussing the F/O's shortcomings with management, did you forget to also mention ( as you seem to missed it in your post) what advice and corrective tution you gave this seemingly dreadful F/O.
Its all very well you decrying the UAE F/O for doing what he did, but without guidance given, it seems to me you did exactly what the UAE guy did.
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Old 4th Jun 2002, 19:28
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I must admit this is a difficult situation and CRM is a tool, not always the solution. Some guys just don't 'click' and it's hard to change that around. A few locals just don't like expats taking their jobs. I sometimes fly with a 48 yr F/O, older than me, who keeps on saying how long he's been in the business. We don't get along and that is a shame because I like a good team and a laugh. I think though that reporting without notice is not done, have the courage to try and settle the problem first and then go to the fleet office if there is no solution.
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