F/O reports incompetent captain in Emirates
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: home
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Backstabbing F/O in Emirates
Just heard an Emirates F/O reported a Captain after a flight, for beeing incompetent and so on.
He didn't have the balls to talk to the Captain personally.
I flew with the PIC a few times and he is a great guy and an excellent pilot.
Time to command in EK is about 3 years, good luck to the sad F/O he'll need it during his upgrade.
He didn't have the balls to talk to the Captain personally.
I flew with the PIC a few times and he is a great guy and an excellent pilot.
Time to command in EK is about 3 years, good luck to the sad F/O he'll need it during his upgrade.
INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is really behind the back stuff. I don't know what the procedure is at Emirates but in my airline if you are going to report another crewmember the other pilot would have to be told and sign the report as well. Doesn't mean he agrees to what is reported but just so he knows that an incident involving him is being raised.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In 37 years of professional flying, only one time did a co-pilot complain...directly to the fleet manager.
The fleet manager called me in and asked....what about this report? So I mentioned about the co-pilots lack of situational awareness, missed radio calls, improper company required callouts....etc, and well, no surprise really, the guy was sent back to the B737....and there he stayed....for three years. Many of the Captains there would not give him any flying...for a long time.
The necessary requirement of course, is management to back up their Commanders, in these situations.
The fleet manager called me in and asked....what about this report? So I mentioned about the co-pilots lack of situational awareness, missed radio calls, improper company required callouts....etc, and well, no surprise really, the guy was sent back to the B737....and there he stayed....for three years. Many of the Captains there would not give him any flying...for a long time.
The necessary requirement of course, is management to back up their Commanders, in these situations.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The necessary requirement of course, is management to back up their Commanders, in these situations.
Many of the Captains there would not give him any flying...for a long time.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The concerned co-pilot was later dis-missed from the company...it was found out that he was a troublemaker, not uncommon amoungst air crew....especially copilots who think they are command material...but later prove otherwise.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A, that sounds ridiculous. I'm glad you were on the right end of the stick and that F/O reportedly turned out to be a trouble maker anyway, but what if you were flying with another captain? And the other guy is making a big mess out of it? Which captain is the company supposed to back? The most senior guy? Or the guy who is best friends with the chief pilot?
The latter will most likely happen.
I don't speak for myself but I can imagine that an F/O is afraid of the consequences if he confronts the captain directly.
In our company, there are places where you can drop a complaint anonymously. Say, if someone harrasses you and clearly dislikes you, you can report that without that person knowing. You can do this if you're afraid of what that person will do to you if his (or her) actions will end up getting that person sacked.
Personally, I'll tell the fellow pilot if there's something about his or her actions that's unclear to me (to put it diplomatically) unless he's clearly deranged and psychotic.
The latter will most likely happen.
I don't speak for myself but I can imagine that an F/O is afraid of the consequences if he confronts the captain directly.
In our company, there are places where you can drop a complaint anonymously. Say, if someone harrasses you and clearly dislikes you, you can report that without that person knowing. You can do this if you're afraid of what that person will do to you if his (or her) actions will end up getting that person sacked.
Personally, I'll tell the fellow pilot if there's something about his or her actions that's unclear to me (to put it diplomatically) unless he's clearly deranged and psychotic.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Dubai
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am an ATC, but this situation is too interesting to just monitor.
A couple of things...
#1. No individual, irrespective of seniority, experience, culture, nationality or history is more important than flight safety.
#2. There is a catch 22 in reporting or (not reporting) your flight-deck partner, on the one side, you may be cutting a rod for your own (or their) back, on the other side, their continued (suposed) wrong doing may cause an incident or accident that could lead to the loss of life.
#3. Clearly, if there is a problem, then something needs to be done about it.
#4. Perhaps the solution lies in Confidential Reporting System, where no names are stated, and the information becomes public (internal to the airline crews) record every few months. This way, when Captain X reads the report, he may identify this as being his own behaviour and adjust accordingly. Also, (non involved) Captain Y or F/O Z may become aware of tendencies, and be on the look-out for them.
#5. If sufficient simialar reports are recieved, it may indicate to management a tendency amongst crews, or highlight a shortcomming in the Airline CRM training.
Lastly, any statement that starts with "I heard that ........" should be taken with a pinch of salt, there is always more (or less) than meets the eye (or is passed on as hear-say).
+++ No offense intended to anyone here +++
Dubai ATC'er
A couple of things...
#1. No individual, irrespective of seniority, experience, culture, nationality or history is more important than flight safety.
#2. There is a catch 22 in reporting or (not reporting) your flight-deck partner, on the one side, you may be cutting a rod for your own (or their) back, on the other side, their continued (suposed) wrong doing may cause an incident or accident that could lead to the loss of life.
#3. Clearly, if there is a problem, then something needs to be done about it.
#4. Perhaps the solution lies in Confidential Reporting System, where no names are stated, and the information becomes public (internal to the airline crews) record every few months. This way, when Captain X reads the report, he may identify this as being his own behaviour and adjust accordingly. Also, (non involved) Captain Y or F/O Z may become aware of tendencies, and be on the look-out for them.
#5. If sufficient simialar reports are recieved, it may indicate to management a tendency amongst crews, or highlight a shortcomming in the Airline CRM training.
Lastly, any statement that starts with "I heard that ........" should be taken with a pinch of salt, there is always more (or less) than meets the eye (or is passed on as hear-say).
+++ No offense intended to anyone here +++
Dubai ATC'er
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Would you say the content of your postings here on PPRuNe have generally shown you to be a tolerant and non-abrasive individual, 411A ?
Again, your statement, "especially copilots who think they are command material... appears to me either extremely naieve, or you have ignored/resisted any CRM training given. In your day, YOU were God in the aircraft with the F/O there to be "seen, but not heard". Correct?
Companies employ First Officers as future Captains, they are there to learn and build experience, to ask advice and to offer an opinion, as well as to MONITOR the safe operation of each flight.
Even YOU made mistakes, 411a - although I'm sure that you're hard pressed to remember any!
Fortunately for the passengers, the airlines, and the insurance companies, there are far fewer Tyrants in the lhs today than there were when you flew professionally. Crews have learnt the value of working as a TEAM, and the DANGER of NOT sharing opinions.
Did YOU ever consider yourself the "square peg in the round hole", 411A? Again, I venture that you would answer "No" to that question.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in EVERY way.
At your late stage in life, 411A here's a little advice from someone with 7 years less in the industry than you - Try talking WITH people, not AT them.
Again, your statement, "especially copilots who think they are command material... appears to me either extremely naieve, or you have ignored/resisted any CRM training given. In your day, YOU were God in the aircraft with the F/O there to be "seen, but not heard". Correct?
Companies employ First Officers as future Captains, they are there to learn and build experience, to ask advice and to offer an opinion, as well as to MONITOR the safe operation of each flight.
Even YOU made mistakes, 411a - although I'm sure that you're hard pressed to remember any!
Fortunately for the passengers, the airlines, and the insurance companies, there are far fewer Tyrants in the lhs today than there were when you flew professionally. Crews have learnt the value of working as a TEAM, and the DANGER of NOT sharing opinions.
Did YOU ever consider yourself the "square peg in the round hole", 411A? Again, I venture that you would answer "No" to that question.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in EVERY way.
At your late stage in life, 411A here's a little advice from someone with 7 years less in the industry than you - Try talking WITH people, not AT them.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Above 30,000 ft
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Er, specifically what was the complaint about? Inaccurate flying? Making a balls-up of the landing? Blatant disregard for SOPs/ATC procedures? Flying into TS? Busting limitations/minimums? Flying when drunk? One-man shows? Or just some petty rantings from a juvenile F/O? The exact nature of this case does have a bearing on who's right & who's wrong.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bohol, Philippines
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This might be a good thread for the newly created CRM forum if only to warn new co-pilots that in spite of the introduction of CRM/MCC training the industry unfortunately still has flight crew members such as 411A.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cant believe this guy reported the Captain directly to management without either discussing the problem post flight
or using the confidential reporting system. Even if they had a disagreement during a flight or not.This is not the way things should be done in a multi cultural environment like Emirates. I hope his skills are commensurate with the high standards he has set.Good luck to the next guy he has to fly with.
(
or using the confidential reporting system. Even if they had a disagreement during a flight or not.This is not the way things should be done in a multi cultural environment like Emirates. I hope his skills are commensurate with the high standards he has set.Good luck to the next guy he has to fly with.
(
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Camelot
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sad day for Emirates flight deck crew.
If you have a problem with someone, sort it out with THAT person, don't drag management into it unless absolutley necessary. Not wearing a jacket and cap do NOT fall into the "ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY" category.
Seriously BAD career move!
Reporting behind someones' back was a right I previously though was reserved for our cabin crew!
If you have a problem with someone, sort it out with THAT person, don't drag management into it unless absolutley necessary. Not wearing a jacket and cap do NOT fall into the "ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY" category.
Seriously BAD career move!
Reporting behind someones' back was a right I previously though was reserved for our cabin crew!
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Dubai, U.A.E.
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very bad form from the F/O. I do not know what he is trying to achieve, other than the response indicated so far on this forum and the Emirates private forum. Sorry old boy, but know you have to live with this!! And hopefully one day when and if you get your command, maybe someone else, just like you, drops you in the s***!!
A sad day for the South African community in Emirates, who generally are a good bunch to work with. I certainly hope someone has actually spoken to this turkey and advise him on how CRM actually works. Anyway, he now has to go to work and face every scenario. Better not make any minor mistakes my friend. Good Luck to you and the way you went about shaping your own future. I look forward to flying with you.
A sad day for the South African community in Emirates, who generally are a good bunch to work with. I certainly hope someone has actually spoken to this turkey and advise him on how CRM actually works. Anyway, he now has to go to work and face every scenario. Better not make any minor mistakes my friend. Good Luck to you and the way you went about shaping your own future. I look forward to flying with you.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I tend to be a reader (lurker) rather than a poster, however after reading 411A's comments the urge to post became awfully strong.
411A
When you were discussing the F/O's shortcomings with management, did you forget to also mention ( as you seem to missed it in your post) what advice and corrective tution you gave this seemingly dreadful F/O.
Its all very well you decrying the UAE F/O for doing what he did, but without guidance given, it seems to me you did exactly what the UAE guy did.
411A
When you were discussing the F/O's shortcomings with management, did you forget to also mention ( as you seem to missed it in your post) what advice and corrective tution you gave this seemingly dreadful F/O.
Its all very well you decrying the UAE F/O for doing what he did, but without guidance given, it seems to me you did exactly what the UAE guy did.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: middle east
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must admit this is a difficult situation and CRM is a tool, not always the solution. Some guys just don't 'click' and it's hard to change that around. A few locals just don't like expats taking their jobs. I sometimes fly with a 48 yr F/O, older than me, who keeps on saying how long he's been in the business. We don't get along and that is a shame because I like a good team and a laugh. I think though that reporting without notice is not done, have the courage to try and settle the problem first and then go to the fleet office if there is no solution.