Crew Decision Making
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Crew Decision Making
Hello all.
I am not sure if this is the relevant section in which to post this question, so I assume the post may be moved by moderators. Anyway..
I am currently undertaking my ATPLs, and particularly during the MET, and Human Performance sections I became curious about how the following situation in the flight deck may unfold.
I recently watched a video found here: This will be a full stop landing! - YouTube that posed many questions to me as an aspiring airline pilot. This approach looks like an example of incredibly poor decision making in my eyes (correct me if I am wrong).
My question is, as a relatively inexperienced FO, if a captain wanted to fly this approach with a severe thunderstorm hovering over the airport, I would not be comfortable to continue to do so - particularly if you had to perform a go-around on short final you would be forced to climb directly into a thunderstorm cloud.
How is this situation dealt with in the cockpit? It posed more questions to me if this example was brought up in an interview situation, and I was asked how I would deal with a captain who wanted to progress with an approach like this?
Lets say the captain wanted to go ahead with this, what would be the protocol in terms of an FO not wanting to progress? Lets say there is an alternate airport available with better weather conditions, and I, as a relatively new FO was not comfortable and expressed this to the captain but he ignored my concerns. What next?
Ultimately I understand the operation of the aircraft is the responsibility of the captain, he has final say. But at what point is it appropriate to commandeer control from the captain and say no?
I'd be very interested to know what everyones thoughts are because I feel as a potential low hours FO, the protocol for a situation like this hasn't really been covered (at least not yet anyway!).
I am not sure if this is the relevant section in which to post this question, so I assume the post may be moved by moderators. Anyway..
I am currently undertaking my ATPLs, and particularly during the MET, and Human Performance sections I became curious about how the following situation in the flight deck may unfold.
I recently watched a video found here: This will be a full stop landing! - YouTube that posed many questions to me as an aspiring airline pilot. This approach looks like an example of incredibly poor decision making in my eyes (correct me if I am wrong).
My question is, as a relatively inexperienced FO, if a captain wanted to fly this approach with a severe thunderstorm hovering over the airport, I would not be comfortable to continue to do so - particularly if you had to perform a go-around on short final you would be forced to climb directly into a thunderstorm cloud.
How is this situation dealt with in the cockpit? It posed more questions to me if this example was brought up in an interview situation, and I was asked how I would deal with a captain who wanted to progress with an approach like this?
Lets say the captain wanted to go ahead with this, what would be the protocol in terms of an FO not wanting to progress? Lets say there is an alternate airport available with better weather conditions, and I, as a relatively new FO was not comfortable and expressed this to the captain but he ignored my concerns. What next?
Ultimately I understand the operation of the aircraft is the responsibility of the captain, he has final say. But at what point is it appropriate to commandeer control from the captain and say no?
I'd be very interested to know what everyones thoughts are because I feel as a potential low hours FO, the protocol for a situation like this hasn't really been covered (at least not yet anyway!).
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Hi Gareth,
This might be better in the CRM forum but here's my thoughts anyway.
You have to start by asking him if he thinks it's safe to continue. If he says yes then you have to state that you are concerned that it is not safe. He may well be able to explain why he considers it is safe and his greater experience may well support that argument. Certainly looked to me like an approach that should have been abandoned way before the rain hit! With an active thunderstorm like that over the airport I can see no justification for continuing the approach. So, how to deal with a Captain who insists on continuing.
In most companies I have worked for there is a statement in the Ops Manual prohibiting landing or take off in an active thunderstorm; if your company has such a rule that I'd remind the captain of it. That might work. If he still insists then you have to make a positive (but non threatening) statement to tell him that you do not consider the approach to be safe and that you would strongly recommend a delay until the storm is passed or diversion to the alternate.
If still no change then you are really in trouble and you have to make a more positive statement. Perhaps something like this "Captain, the thunderstorm and lightning over the airport are creating a dangerous situation and we must not go any closer".
If he still refuses to acknowledge your concerns then you are in a world of hurt. It doesn't really matter what you say now because (at least in my mind) you are passing a point of no return. If you have to be more aggressive then one of the two of you is going to loose your job - that's fine because I don't want to be in an airline which supports a Captain making those sort of decisions. Taking control is always problematic because, if he won't listen to your concerns then he is not likely to react well to you taking control of the aircraft! I guess you just do what you can to get him to turn away from the storm but, there comes a point where the danger of arguing at low altitude over what to do and who has control will be a greater risk than continuing the approach. Once safely on the ground you then need to start a Safety report and be prepared to answer some very robust questions - should be no problem so long as you have behaved professionally and are right in accordance with the company procedures.
Then .... look for another place to work!
This might be better in the CRM forum but here's my thoughts anyway.
You have to start by asking him if he thinks it's safe to continue. If he says yes then you have to state that you are concerned that it is not safe. He may well be able to explain why he considers it is safe and his greater experience may well support that argument. Certainly looked to me like an approach that should have been abandoned way before the rain hit! With an active thunderstorm like that over the airport I can see no justification for continuing the approach. So, how to deal with a Captain who insists on continuing.
In most companies I have worked for there is a statement in the Ops Manual prohibiting landing or take off in an active thunderstorm; if your company has such a rule that I'd remind the captain of it. That might work. If he still insists then you have to make a positive (but non threatening) statement to tell him that you do not consider the approach to be safe and that you would strongly recommend a delay until the storm is passed or diversion to the alternate.
If still no change then you are really in trouble and you have to make a more positive statement. Perhaps something like this "Captain, the thunderstorm and lightning over the airport are creating a dangerous situation and we must not go any closer".
If he still refuses to acknowledge your concerns then you are in a world of hurt. It doesn't really matter what you say now because (at least in my mind) you are passing a point of no return. If you have to be more aggressive then one of the two of you is going to loose your job - that's fine because I don't want to be in an airline which supports a Captain making those sort of decisions. Taking control is always problematic because, if he won't listen to your concerns then he is not likely to react well to you taking control of the aircraft! I guess you just do what you can to get him to turn away from the storm but, there comes a point where the danger of arguing at low altitude over what to do and who has control will be a greater risk than continuing the approach. Once safely on the ground you then need to start a Safety report and be prepared to answer some very robust questions - should be no problem so long as you have behaved professionally and are right in accordance with the company procedures.
Then .... look for another place to work!
Gareth, you make the assumption, as do many instructors and discussions on this subject, that the FO has a better understanding of the situation than the Captain.
The critical issue is why there should be an apparent difference in understanding of either the situation, or in deciding on a course of action. None of this presupposes that either pilot is right or wrong, just that there is a difference.
Thus every effort should be made to question individual understandings of the situation and then enquire of the Captain why there appears to be a difference in viewpoints – ‘I don’t understand, please explain; if we GA we might have to ...’. In this, the enquiry should try to provide additional or trigger information such as:-
the actual landing distance required for both wet and flooded runways,
if the runway has a lot of rubber deposits or is ungrooved,
the temp / wind profile, if it is conducive to windshear,
the missed approach routing,
Communication is essential in helping to resolve the differences in awareness; first for self-education and understanding, and second to aid the Captain by triggering a new assessment and explanation.
There is never a perfect match of understanding in any situation, the objective is to establish an acceptable shared mental model containing both the situation and proposed action.
If this is not resolvable, further communication should enquire a justification against the concerns – why is it safe to continue; only then might the communication be elevated; see PACE. However, remember it is important to avoid an antagonist confrontation and any thought of physical interaction; one consideration would be that intervention might have higher risks than continuing to land.
Problems like this are at the root of operational decision making – ‘Errors in Aviation Decision Making’
Also see ‘PACE’
The critical issue is why there should be an apparent difference in understanding of either the situation, or in deciding on a course of action. None of this presupposes that either pilot is right or wrong, just that there is a difference.
Thus every effort should be made to question individual understandings of the situation and then enquire of the Captain why there appears to be a difference in viewpoints – ‘I don’t understand, please explain; if we GA we might have to ...’. In this, the enquiry should try to provide additional or trigger information such as:-
the actual landing distance required for both wet and flooded runways,
if the runway has a lot of rubber deposits or is ungrooved,
the temp / wind profile, if it is conducive to windshear,
the missed approach routing,
Communication is essential in helping to resolve the differences in awareness; first for self-education and understanding, and second to aid the Captain by triggering a new assessment and explanation.
There is never a perfect match of understanding in any situation, the objective is to establish an acceptable shared mental model containing both the situation and proposed action.
If this is not resolvable, further communication should enquire a justification against the concerns – why is it safe to continue; only then might the communication be elevated; see PACE. However, remember it is important to avoid an antagonist confrontation and any thought of physical interaction; one consideration would be that intervention might have higher risks than continuing to land.
Problems like this are at the root of operational decision making – ‘Errors in Aviation Decision Making’
Also see ‘PACE’
