Avoiding venus...
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 169
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From: Nairn, Highland
I never ceased to be amazed how little aircrew knew about the night sky, eg that objects rise in the east (north east, east, southeast, etc) and set in the west – just like the sun. I use to bore the pants off my first officers explaining such things as why the earliest sunset doesn’t coincide with the shortest day, etc.
But one incident really took the biscuit. It was a beautiful clear morning as I drove in to work before dawn. There was a splendid full moon (but with a difference – read on). I overheard several pilots in the crew room making comments about the peculiar red moon and wondered why it was like that. Then a delightful trolley-dolly came up to me and said: “Lovely total eclipse this morning wasn’t it Jack?”
But one incident really took the biscuit. It was a beautiful clear morning as I drove in to work before dawn. There was a splendid full moon (but with a difference – read on). I overheard several pilots in the crew room making comments about the peculiar red moon and wondered why it was like that. Then a delightful trolley-dolly came up to me and said: “Lovely total eclipse this morning wasn’t it Jack?”
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 372
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From: Somehwere on the planet
Common sense hasn't applied to the canadian duty regulations for many many years. They don't differentiate between time of day that the duty period starts, or the number of sectors. Common for 14-17 hour days with 6 sectors over here, and 1200 hours/year.
Hopefully now that the americans have sorted out their rest rules canada will be shamed into following with a bit of pressure from ALPA, before a serious accident occurs.
Hopefully now that the americans have sorted out their rest rules canada will be shamed into following with a bit of pressure from ALPA, before a serious accident occurs.
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: UK
FO told me that he managed to really annoy the Capt by continuously flashing his lights at Venus. Capt kept telling him that it was NOT an aircraft but the planet Venus.FO kept flashing. Capt got a bit air-raged and again gave him a long lecture about Venus, rising star, changing colours etc. FO tells me................." three minutes later, Venus passed below us" !
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 235
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From: SLF, living somewhere East in the West
SLF speaking here - interesting point in the report: "Before he had children, the FO's normally slept 8 hours per night. After having children, the FO normally slept approximately 6 to 7 hours per night, between 2300 and 0600, which could often be interrupted when the children required care."
As a father of two myself I remember those days - is that a hazard? Also, given a family situation where the wife maybe not feeling fully supported by the husband who is away often could there be an addition danger from those settings. Just a thought?
As a father of two myself I remember those days - is that a hazard? Also, given a family situation where the wife maybe not feeling fully supported by the husband who is away often could there be an addition danger from those settings. Just a thought?
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 9
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From: Zone of Alienation
What would you suggest, a government-appointed marriage/sleep/family monitor assigned to all pilots? Heck, throw in a video recorder in the bedroom to ensure every pilot isn't up to bedroom shenanigans before duty.
The report goes much too far in its effort to reveal what is purely a subjective assessment of a person's biology. Professionals of all varieties have family responsibilities as well as professional. Deal with it.
The report goes much too far in its effort to reveal what is purely a subjective assessment of a person's biology. Professionals of all varieties have family responsibilities as well as professional. Deal with it.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: UK
It's easy to do! I have taken avoiding action of Venus several times in the early hours fly east across the Atlantic. It rises fairly quickly, but if it has been obscured by thin cloud, when it appears, it brightens very rapidly where a short time before there was absolutely nothing. With it rapidly brightening, it gives the impression it's a landing light approaching incredibly quickly. It's very easy to be fooled into taking avoiding action by a startled, tired pilot, and yes I have done it several times!
Psychophysiological entity
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,383
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From: Walton on the Naze Essex.
Technically, there may be absolutely nothing wrong with the young pilot.
Twice, maybe three times in my life, I have experienced a strange experience upon waking - almost like sensing another reality for a second or two. It was fascinating.
I mentioned this to my appropriately qualified son, who said there was quite a lot of research carried out on those few moments between sleep and being fully awake.
This is almost certainly because of that momentary window into another mode of brain function is so out of the ordinary.
The pilot had seemingly enjoyed a long sleep. Perhaps tiredness caused it to be a very deep sleep. Such a shame if this ruins his career, when the effort should be towards making the aircraft safe from such sudden and unwanted inputs.
Twice, maybe three times in my life, I have experienced a strange experience upon waking - almost like sensing another reality for a second or two. It was fascinating.
I mentioned this to my appropriately qualified son, who said there was quite a lot of research carried out on those few moments between sleep and being fully awake.
This is almost certainly because of that momentary window into another mode of brain function is so out of the ordinary.
The pilot had seemingly enjoyed a long sleep. Perhaps tiredness caused it to be a very deep sleep. Such a shame if this ruins his career, when the effort should be towards making the aircraft safe from such sudden and unwanted inputs.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 235
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From: SLF, living somewhere East in the West
@Firesysok: I don't know why you are so hostile. I deal with it - I am a father and have a family so I can relate and understand that problem very well. I only wanted to inquire if people see that as a problem in their job. My wife knew when I had an early clinical duty (physician) next day she would leave me alone and take care of the kids at night if possible/needed so that I could be well rested for the next morning.
Whom would you rather have doing your brain surgery at 7:30 am: the well rested guy or the guy who woke up three times at night to take care for the crying baby...?
Whom would you rather have doing your brain surgery at 7:30 am: the well rested guy or the guy who woke up three times at night to take care for the crying baby...?
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 276
Likes: 3
From: N Ireland
With regard to the waking up aspect I once was told that in the army the only time you could clobber a senior NCO/officer with being charged was in the minute or so after having been awoken by said NCO/officer. Don't know anybody who did it though.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Had the pleasure of giving 'traffic information' on Venus several times.
At the airport where I worked, we were fairly 'customer-focussed', (long before the phrase became common management parlance), and would play "both ends against the middle" whenever safety and the traffic situation/met allowed.
Remember one evening Venus was lined up precisely with the reciprocal of the declared R/W in use. Chap in a Hurn-built twin-jet, (adorned with a tri-angular, fast-moving, bird-like logo), who had just established after a long base-leg from BPK, says "and what's the range of the traffic on 06?'.
"About 62,000,000 miles", was the reply.
"Ah, Roger" was the acknowledgement.
Venus has been visible through our kitchen window recently, which looks towards Mt. Belzoni International. And it does look like a departing aircraft.
Safe flying.....
At the airport where I worked, we were fairly 'customer-focussed', (long before the phrase became common management parlance), and would play "both ends against the middle" whenever safety and the traffic situation/met allowed.
Remember one evening Venus was lined up precisely with the reciprocal of the declared R/W in use. Chap in a Hurn-built twin-jet, (adorned with a tri-angular, fast-moving, bird-like logo), who had just established after a long base-leg from BPK, says "and what's the range of the traffic on 06?'.
"About 62,000,000 miles", was the reply.
"Ah, Roger" was the acknowledgement.
Venus has been visible through our kitchen window recently, which looks towards Mt. Belzoni International. And it does look like a departing aircraft.
Safe flying.....
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,632
Likes: 134
From: USA
Didn't he do the right thing?
I don't see why we're hanging the FO. He wakes up and sees an "airplane"heading right towards him, and out of the corner of his eye, sees that the Captain is not responding. In a fraction of a second, his mind goes through several possibilities- TCAS failure being one of them.
A split second later, he reverts to basic airmanship- see and avoid. We are always very quick to pass judgment on those who are dependent on automation and rule books to fly at the expense of airmanship and common sense.
What would we be saying about him if it had indeed been an aircraft? I'd rather fly with this guy who is ready to revert to basic airmanship at a moment's notice than somebody who would just watch an airplane get closer and wonder why the TCAS hasn't said anything.
A split second later, he reverts to basic airmanship- see and avoid. We are always very quick to pass judgment on those who are dependent on automation and rule books to fly at the expense of airmanship and common sense.
What would we be saying about him if it had indeed been an aircraft? I'd rather fly with this guy who is ready to revert to basic airmanship at a moment's notice than somebody who would just watch an airplane get closer and wonder why the TCAS hasn't said anything.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 84
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From: England
Whilst it may not be relevant in this instance, those who criticize quickly shouldn't forget that TCAS is not a requirement for commercial aircraft. Everyday commercial flights depart with TCAS inoperative. So if you do happen to see a light that appears to be coming towards you quickly (TCAS warning or not), you can't assume that TCAS will always protect you as the aircraft headed towards you may not actually have it working...
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: Where the job is
TCAS is mandatory for commercial a/c but MAY BE inoperative (MEL), usually for 3-5 days. On the other hand, xponder with mode C is mandatory, as many ATCs don't have indication of primary radar return.
A/c with TCAS inop but working xponder with C mode will be seen by a/c with TCAS and even TA/RA will be issued but only to them.
Even a/c with xponder without C mode are seen by TCAS but without altitude info.
Years ago, flying late in dark,desolated, mountainous area, we tried to outclimb Venus mistaking it for the light on top of the mountain.
A/c with TCAS inop but working xponder with C mode will be seen by a/c with TCAS and even TA/RA will be issued but only to them.
Even a/c with xponder without C mode are seen by TCAS but without altitude info.
Years ago, flying late in dark,desolated, mountainous area, we tried to outclimb Venus mistaking it for the light on top of the mountain.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,181
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From: any town as retired.
got the T shirt
climbing out of Luton, turned and broke out of cloud, to level out on SID.
There directly ahead was a powerful landing light, one of many, but the biggest and closest......
Concentrates the mind.
Tonight is FULL moon, so beware... It looked fantastic last night enroute to Paris.
There directly ahead was a powerful landing light, one of many, but the biggest and closest......
Concentrates the mind.
Tonight is FULL moon, so beware... It looked fantastic last night enroute to Paris.
Joined: Aug 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 220
Likes: 8
From: Toronto
Now there is a $20M lawsuit started
CBC is reporting
Air Canada sued for $20M over jet plunge - Toronto - CBC News
that a Toronto law firm has started a 20 million lawsuit over the incident. Hand in your licences, guys, and train to become a lawyer!
Air Canada sued for $20M over jet plunge - Toronto - CBC News
that a Toronto law firm has started a 20 million lawsuit over the incident. Hand in your licences, guys, and train to become a lawyer!