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Polish LOT 767 wheels up landing

Old 2nd Nov 2011, 07:09
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Some more info to drop in - the pair of F16s came in to check for visual (they expected electronic failure for gear expansion lights) and confirmed no wheels - and captain asked them to clear their altitude, so they can try to "drop" the wheels with higher G maneuvres. So I'd bet they tried everything, had plenty of time. They also contacted HQ for technical advisory, so I guess we should wait for preliminary report, which is scheduled to come in a month time.

On the other idea - it's still too early for judging, but just a quickie - we assume no gear landing was an effect of no hydraulic pressure. Just give a thought to opposite - if there was a problem with gear which caused then a leak and loss of C system? We'll have to wait till report, anyways.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 08:12
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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I think water landing and gear up landing can't be compared really. Polish pilots did a very good job but it has been done before. In 2000 Hungarian TU154 in Greece landed gear up by crew mistake, the tower noticed too late, but they managed to take off again, perform a go-around and land normally. And in 2008, Kd-Avia B737 in Kalinigrad, Russia, also landed gear-up and at night time. It was a crew error and not a real emergency. They were probably other occasions too.
So, Hudson landing must still be No1, or maybe Ethiopian, given the circumstances, bigger plane and ocean, no river to land on.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 08:28
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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In 2000 Hungarian TU154 in Greece landed gear up by crew mistake, the tower noticed too late, but they managed to take off again, perform a go-around and land normally
Just had a quick read, and all I got to say is [email protected]@@@p", man they are one tough bird.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 08:46
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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You certainly don't need the additional drag to stop and you certainly don't need the possibility of uneven drag from partial spoiler deployment due to the hydraulic failure, no spoilers is the correct procedure in this case.
Doesn't the Center Hydraulic System control symmetrical spoilers?

On the subject of drag, how does the co-efficient of drag of aluminium and composites on a foamed runway compare with braked rubber on a non-foamed runway?
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 08:47
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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On twr, we didn't get any information about problems until they were on approach, so it's pretty obvious they expected the altn systems to work normally. And only then did the problem arise. After that they circled for 90 mins, in contact with hq and one instructor pilot, so I assume all possibilities were checked, though of course we're only humans.
On our request, police closed the road just outside the airport perimeter. And then just waiting for the outcome, and lots of smell afterwards.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 09:19
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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it will take a few weeks before we know why this gears did not extend and the beautiful Boeing design of a back-up system...
until then, the 767 is still blocking WAW airport, any clue how to remove it from the runways intersection ?
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 09:35
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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just got a funny idea ... may be it can go on its own wheels as they stayed in their compartment and if they have not been too damaged by the bely landing, a crane, lift-up, gear extension (manually) and towed to the gate !!!
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 09:52
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Nseu well spotted mmm! (my point previous post)To me only inboard aileron seemed visible.
As for deploying spoilers manually I would have once the aircraft had fully settled. But do not think that would be an important issue.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 09:55
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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> just got a funny idea ... may be it can go on its own wheels
> as they stayed in their compartment and if they have
> not been too damaged by the bely landing, a crane, lift-up,
> gear extension (manually) and towed to the gate !!!

The pilots did their best to lower the gear on fly-in. While it turned out to be impossible, I'd bet against it. Especially considering landing and possible additional damage.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 10:11
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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so unless the checklist says no spoilers or they are inop I'd have thought them very useful.
But why? The ground spoilers put the weight on the wheels so that the brakes are most effective. This had no wheels or brakes therefore there use is surely largely reduced and possibly negligeble though every little helps. I wouldn't have thought it a make or break decision.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 10:15
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Also, as far as I can tell, it would have been rather tricky to deploy the spoilers if the C system was INOP, which is what all indications are pointing to...

Still wondering if anybody could weigh in on my previous question though, regarding if the gear doors would have opened with the ALTN EXT procedure being used, regardless of if the uplocks released or not.

As far as heroism; I don't think it qualifies as heroism in the English sense of the word, but in the Polish sense it does (bohater).
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 10:21
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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The 767 QRH gives advice depending on stopping distance. If it is considered critical, "Extend the speedbrakes after all gear, or the nose or engine nacelle have contacted the runway."

The spoilers powered by the left and right systems are still available. As you would expect, each is paired with the same panel on the opposite wing.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 10:38
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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can a local guy spot the location of the wreck on the airport chart, and location of LOT maintenance facility ?
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 11:01
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Professional crew certainly, hats off from here.

But I have to wonder if there is engineer at LOT right now wondering "Eish, I think nobody tested the alt gear extension last time gears were maintained on that bird..."
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 11:22
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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so unless the checklist says no spoilers or they are inop I'd have thought them very useful.
But why? The ground spoilers put the weight on the wheels so that the brakes are most effective. This had no wheels or brakes therefore there use is surely largely reduced and possibly negligeble though every little helps. I wouldn't have thought it a make or break decision.
Increasing the weight on the tarmac/metal interface has the same effect as a tarmac/rubber interface in terms iof increasing friction.

(Note, I make no comment on spoiler use. I have no idea of the proportion of runway used, what the qrh says etc. But most assuredly the basic physics is comparable.)
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 11:26
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Voila:

52.166772, 20.966206 do Warszawa - Mapy Google

Lot maintenance base is under the roof with big …. blue/white LOT.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 11:30
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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One thread in these 'ere forum moaning and groaning about pilots loosing their flying skills thanks ( or no thanks ) to all the electronic gadgetry in the cockpits.
Then, within a short time span ( LOT , Iran Air ), we see pilots at their best, outperforming racks full of hardware with gigabytes full of software...

I'm sure this is a conspiracy. A secret brotherhood of pilots, hellbent on discrediting those doomsayers at A and B, by generating emergencies to show off their skills...Muahaha (deranged laughter)
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 11:58
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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A bit of information. From the Boeing FCTM for 75/6. Not the entire story but the first para.

During a partial gear or gear up landing, speedbrakes should be extended only when stopping distance is critical. Extending the speedbrakes before all gear, or the nose or the engine nacelle in the case of a gear that does not extend, have contacted the runway may compromise controllability of the airplane.
As a current 75/6 pilot I can only hope that I can aspire to the outcome achieved by these guys. I would suggest the deployment or otherwise of the speedbrakes is of little consequence given this outcome.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 12:25
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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LOT Polish Airlines Announcement

Warsaw, 1 November 2011 LOT Polish Airlines confirms a successful emergency landing of a Boeing 767 aircraft at Chopin's Airport in Warsaw.

On board of LO 016 flying from Newark to Warsaw were 220 passengers and 11 crew members. After the landing passengers were safely evacuated by the crew of the aircraft and then transported to the terminal, where the support team and psychologists took care of them. During the landing the passengers stayed calm and nobody was injured.

After noticing a central hydraulic system failure the standard procedure for emergency landings at Warsaw airport were implemented. All airport authorities and emergency services were alerted and in place to assist the aircraft during the landing.
They start to say a few bull shit.... we will see what is next
so if I read well, 7 hours before the landing, Warsaw airport was in emergency already, and central hydraulic failure would be the only cause to avoid the deployment of the landing gears
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 13:40
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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I don´t know B757/B767 systems but lots of my friends do and fly them daily but me question is, you´ve already beaten murphy´s once today, then twice with that alternate system not working at all and you fly over the atlantic where murphy´s is most expected to come again (it did at the end)

Great landing for the guys, I wish I could do one like that but still don´t get the point to risk that long flight back to Warsaw. You´re ETOPS, is still the aircraft ETOP´s if you get that system failure?

So far on my trainning during the last 20 years if you have a main system failure stay where you are and then think, look at the alternatives and then proceed, but surely I will not go 7-8 hrs over the atlantic if I have an alternate airport 30 minutes away, come on, it´s an hidraulic system failure, it´s not an FMS or one generator off line.
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