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Polish LOT 767 wheels up landing

Old 5th Nov 2012, 09:45
  #401 (permalink)  
 
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Excellent remark ( as nearly always from you ) . sometimes the obvious can be front of our eyes but we keep on looking for the improbable difficult possibilities
The reason why this CB tripped is not relevant. The worrying thing is that no one noticed the CB was tripped during the event prior to the landing. The crew were apparently in contact with engineers on the ground, it is surprising that no one had a look at the wiring diagram and noticed the altn gear ext circuit is protected by two fuses.
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Old 6th Nov 2012, 09:45
  #402 (permalink)  
 
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There are several questions, which need to be answered:
- Main one: Was the CB in off position?
- Why didn't they found the tripped (or switched/ripped off) CB, although it is claimed, that the breakers were checked by F/O and the purser (highly experienced one)?
- As they were in contact with Maintenance, were they asked to check the specific ones (both relevant CBs)?
- If not, was Maintenance able to find this CB on the schematics?
- Was the Maintenance in contact with Boeing? Did they receive information to check the tripped CB?

I believe we all are convinced, that CB was tripped off during approach, although I think we'll never find the reason. I believe the crew checked the emergency gear extension fuse to be OK and they gave the "all CBs are OK" information to the maintenance, which mislead them.

A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid having to exercise his superior skill.
Unfortunately here cpt. Wrona had to use his skills...

Last edited by konradeck; 6th Nov 2012 at 09:46.
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Old 6th Nov 2012, 11:28
  #403 (permalink)  
 
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You're jumping too far in your conclusions.
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Old 6th Nov 2012, 12:05
  #404 (permalink)  
 
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You are correct, Emit. That's what I get on depending on my tired old memory (and having flown too many different types). I was thinking of the straight 300 I once flew, without an HMG. Mea culpa
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Old 6th Nov 2012, 15:02
  #405 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately here cpt. Wrona had to use his skills...
Well, at least they showed that it can be done (belly landing a 767).
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Old 6th Nov 2012, 18:55
  #406 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by konradeck #405
I believe we all are convinced, that CB was tripped off during approach...
If you believe this, you are wrong!
I am not convinced about this.
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 15:31
  #407 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately here cpt. Wrona had to use his skills...
While I'm not questioning that the crew did a decent job, IMHO a gears up landing on a hard runway requires no exceptional skills other than being able to land an airplane in the first place. Once touching down, cutting fuel, electric power and slowing to a speed where rudder is no longer effective, the crew become front seat passengers with zero further control over events...

Last edited by andrasz; 7th Nov 2012 at 21:47.
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 16:15
  #408 (permalink)  
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IMHO a gears up landing on a runway in no way requires any special skill
The 767 . like many othe large twins has the engines hanging well below the main fuselage , a couple of inches asymetrical and you could end up like the Ethiopian 767 who did this on the water some years ago,

Of course, as "Sully" himslef says :an amount of luck was required ... but as a glider pilot himself he knew that wings absolutely level is an absolute prerequisite when attempting such a thing. So superiors skills , yes.. in both cases.
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 16:23
  #409 (permalink)  
 
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...a couple of inches asymetrical and you could end up like the Ethiopian 767...
I said runway, not water, that's a different story. On a hard runway it will settle on the two engine pods as it would on wheels, as it was ably demonstrated. Rudder is more than sufficient to counteract any yaw from only one engine dragging momentarily.

The Ethiopian 767 cartwheeled because it was in a steep bank and out of control. There was a scuffle in the cockpit with the highjacker, it was not a controlled ditching.

Last edited by andrasz; 7th Nov 2012 at 21:48.
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 16:59
  #410 (permalink)  
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Andrasz: Point taken, I never belly- landed a large aircraft on a runway, so I take your word for it.
For the Ethiopian you are right, I should have looked at the report again before posting.( as I just did now !) was just remembering the video .
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 17:34
  #411 (permalink)  
 
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The Ethiopoan 767 cartwheeled because it was in a steep bank and out of control.
I think hitting a reef with the low wing also had something to do with it.
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 20:13
  #412 (permalink)  
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It was out of fuel and optins...THAT Captain is a true HERO...
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 21:54
  #413 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
I never belly- landed a large aircraft on a runway...
Nor did I, and I assume neither did the vast majority of forum readers, fortunately

However if you look at the records, I cannot think of any planned gear-up landing on a hard runway that went wrong in the past couple of decades. The plane might not be useable again, but everyone walks away - that qualifies as a good landing.

As you correctly point out, ditching is a different story.

Last edited by andrasz; 7th Nov 2012 at 21:56.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 03:31
  #414 (permalink)  
 
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here come the lawsuits.....

CHICAGO (AP) Passengers on a plane that crash-landed in Poland last year when its landing gear failed to deploy have sued Boeing and the firm that inspected the airliner before it departed New Jersey, with one attorney saying his clients suffered severe emotional trauma from thinking they were about to die.

A lawsuit claiming both physical and psychological damage was filed this week in Cook County Circuit Court in Chicago, where Boeing is headquartered, contends design flaws in the 767-300 led to fluid leaking from the hydraulic system. It said workers of New York-based Mach II Maintenance should have detected it.

* * * *

[T]he psychological trauma was intense, as the pilot told passengers over the intercom that the crew had no choice but to land without wheels, the Chicago-area attorney representing the plaintiffs told The Associated Press on Friday.

"You've got the pilot telling them that things aren't looking good, you had people texting their loved ones saying, 'I don't know if I'll ever see you again, goodbye,' " said Floyd Wisner. "There's the terror that you are about to die."

Some of the around 80 passengers listed as plaintiffs still are plagued by nightmares, he said, and some say they can never set foot on a plane again, Wisner said, calling it "classic post-traumatic stress disorder."

People who are skeptical of such claims don't understand what his clients went through, he added.

"This is a near-death experience," he said. "That you didn't die is great. But you suffered damage from thinking you would die."
[ Uh.... I've been in several "near-death" situations. Never sued anyone because of it. And this was a near-death experience in their own minds only. Not a particularly difficult landing for a competent crew, as many on this thread already have pointed out.

Some passengers may have PTSD. But many are greedy, or for various reasons (money being one) have chosen to embrace a victim personna. Our legal system in America encourages that.

Suing the manufacturer and maintenance company may allow the Plaintiffs to circumvent the liability and damage limitations of the Warsaw/Montreal Convention (for an international flight).

There are many good things about America. Jury roulette just isn't one of them. ]

Last edited by Passenger 389; 10th Nov 2012 at 03:58. Reason: 1. Clarified quote. 2. In comment regarding Warsaw/Montreal Convention, replaced "likely will" with "may" as the applicable legal rule can differ for each defendant.
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Old 21st Jun 2015, 15:34
  #415 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by suninmyeyes View Post

I seem to remember on the 747 if the nose gear did not come down using the alternate method the third method was for the flight engineer to go down into the lower equipment bay (lower 41, 707 term that remained) and unscrew screws that held it up, after a number had been unscrewed the weight would strip the remaining screws and the nose gear would fall down.
That access door is frequently blocked by cargo on the freighters.

Any update on the final report or did I just miss its publication?
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Old 21st Jun 2015, 15:42
  #416 (permalink)  
 
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Some passengers may have PTSD. But many are greedy, or for various reasons (money being one) have chosen to embrace a victim personna. Our legal system in America encourages that.

I hope, sincerely, that they get what they truly deserve and what is coming to them: as the Americans will understand.."sweet FA".
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