Polish LOT 767 wheels up landing
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If they used ALTN LG extension then the landing gear doors (e.g. forward nose gear doors) would have remained in the open position. In this picture it is clearly in the closed position, which perhaps indicates the C HYD system was somehow pressurized and normal extension was used. Am I correct? Could someone correct me if I am not?
Last edited by piotro; 6th Nov 2011 at 16:19.
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Typical talk by souls who've never learned on "old iron", nor learned the finite properties of the various systems on board their craft.
But, some of these unauthorized 'techniques' caused mishaps and cost lives.
Who knew the ground air sensing CB out would pop the spoilers when they were armed? Who knew we would forget to set the flaps for takeoff with the horn CB out? Who knew the lav flush motor would catch fire with the CB held in?
Bet you don't know you can restore your ESS busses if with "brute force" if necessary.
I agree with Airbubba here.
Unless it specifically says in the QRH or emergency check list that you can reset a CB more than once then one should adhere to the procedure.
Again, with all the time available to them in the crossing I'm sure they would have gone through all the procedures for the hydraulic failure and its consequences.
I'm sure their maintenance would have been called up to help trouble shoot the problems and go through the systems with the crew. Perhaps even Boeing got involved.
Do we know for a fact at this time if LOT's maintenance and/or Boeing got involved prior to the landing?
Unless it specifically says in the QRH or emergency check list that you can reset a CB more than once then one should adhere to the procedure.
Again, with all the time available to them in the crossing I'm sure they would have gone through all the procedures for the hydraulic failure and its consequences.
I'm sure their maintenance would have been called up to help trouble shoot the problems and go through the systems with the crew. Perhaps even Boeing got involved.
Do we know for a fact at this time if LOT's maintenance and/or Boeing got involved prior to the landing?
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FAR 91.3 (b); and I happen to consider Gear Down safer than Up.
No, residual voltage (built up in the voltage regulator) can be used to close a Field Relay if "traditional" methods don't work. As referenced in another thread on this forum, the minimal ground training crews receive every year and lack of experience moving down from (partially due to the advent of the "regional") has caused a lack of total/complete knowledge of the aircraft. As a side effect of this, unfounded and irrational fears are very common in aviation.
As I recall, on the 727 transfer of the essential busses is voice actuated by yelling 'Check Essential!' at the FE. Is 'brute force' hitting him with your Maglite?
Last edited by aviatorhi; 6th Nov 2011 at 19:48.
I find it rather incredulous in this day and age and after many deaths due to wiring fires that ANY educated pilot would consider "holding" a circuit breaker in.
Are there still pilots who don't know or understand the risks associated with Kapton and resetting a CB after it has tripped?
The American military either rewired their aircraft or scrapped them nearly two decades ago because of the risks associated with that stuff!
Are there still pilots who don't know or understand the risks associated with Kapton and resetting a CB after it has tripped?
The American military either rewired their aircraft or scrapped them nearly two decades ago because of the risks associated with that stuff!
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Looking at the picture in #222 it looks as if the ground release for the MLG door uplocks have been deployed,you can see the service door for each uplock release lever open.These actually release the door uplock via the ALT release system..When you select MLG door close, on the ground,you in fact use that ALT release lever and do they go up very rapidly.
Regards holding a tripped C.B. in, very poor practice,we in the industry have to abide by SFAR 88,so apart from going against AMM procedures you would also be going against FAA rules.
Regards holding a tripped C.B. in, very poor practice,we in the industry have to abide by SFAR 88,so apart from going against AMM procedures you would also be going against FAA rules.
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As a side effect of this, unfounded and irrational fears are very common in aviation.
Unless it specifically says in the QRH or emergency check list that you can reset a CB more than once then one should adhere to the procedure.
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Are there still pilots who don't know or understand the risks associated with Kapton and resetting a CB after it has tripped?
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For the old timers of this forum...
"THIS NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN THE L-1011!"
(forwarded from Capt Bob somewhere in the Flight Levels)
"THIS NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN THE L-1011!"
(forwarded from Capt Bob somewhere in the Flight Levels)
For several reasons:
o The L-1011 has two alternate gear extension systems.
1. Manual system which uses cables release the locks. No electronics.
2. Alternate hydraulic system that powers the gear down.
When the manual release is used:
o The L-1011 main gear has no up-lock. The lock is on the door and the gear is resting on the door. Door opens gear falls out.
o When the nose gear is unlocked the gear gaps the forward doors and aerodynamics and gravity take over and the nose gear falls out.
When the alternate hydraulic system is used: system pressure in ported to the extend side of the retract cylinder powering the gear down.
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Below is a statement given by "Boeing" in relation to "the use" of circuit breakers by flight crews (during the 2004 Flight Operations Symposium, May 9 – 12, 2004, Bell Harbor Convention Center):
Flight crews are not trained in circuit breaker location or use. In many cases, circuit
breakers are installed in different locations on different airplanes within a model. Circuit
breakers are not designed to be switches; this impacts life expectancy of the circuit
breaker. The flight crew is not always in a position to easily reach circuit breakers. In
addition, the circuit breakers themselves are not necessarily clearly and uniformly
labeled. Boeing is also concerned that if the crew becomes habitualized to using circuit
breakers they will eventually use them in a situation they should not use them.
Flight crews are not trained in circuit breaker location or use. In many cases, circuit
breakers are installed in different locations on different airplanes within a model. Circuit
breakers are not designed to be switches; this impacts life expectancy of the circuit
breaker. The flight crew is not always in a position to easily reach circuit breakers. In
addition, the circuit breakers themselves are not necessarily clearly and uniformly
labeled. Boeing is also concerned that if the crew becomes habitualized to using circuit
breakers they will eventually use them in a situation they should not use them.
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Chyla says he now credits God, as well as Capt. Tadeusz Wrona and his crew, for the safe landing that some in Poland have hailed as miraculous.
This Goddy guy must be a complete wally. If he/she/it was going to spiritually intervene, why did he/she/it not just make the gear come down?? I don't know, as far as omnipotent deities go, this one must have come from the bargain-basement department. Trust us to get the retard of the Universe to oversee us.
BTW - I thought the best comment came from the captain. The aircraft came to a rest on the runway intersection, and completely closed the airport. So the captain mused: "If we had wheels-up landing distance tables, we could have cleared the cross runway.....". Nice thought, Capt Wrona, nice thought.
.
Chyla says he now credits God, as well as Capt. Tadeusz Wrona and his crew, for the safe landing that some in Poland have hailed as miraculous.
A farmer is in Iowa during a flood. The river is overflowing, with water surrounding the farmer's home up to his front porch. As he is standing there, a boat comes up, The man in the boat says "Jump in, I'll take you to safety."
The farmer crosses his arms and says stubbornly, "Nope, I put my trust in God."
The boat goes away. The water rises to the second floor. Another boat comes up, the man says to the farmer who is now in the second story window, "Jump in, I'll save you."
The farmer again says, "Nope, I put my trust in God."
The boat goes away. Now the water is up to the roof. As The farmer stands on the roof, a helicopter comes over, and drops a ladder. The pilot yells down to the farmer "I'll save you, climb the ladder."
The farmer says "Nope, I put my trust in God."
The helicopter goes away. The water comtinues to rise and sweeps the farmer off the roof. He drowns.
The farmer goes to heaven. God sees him and says "What are you doing here?"
The farmer says "I put my trust in you and you let me down."
God says, "What do you mean, let you down? I sent you two boats and a helicopter!!!"
The farmer crosses his arms and says stubbornly, "Nope, I put my trust in God."
The boat goes away. The water rises to the second floor. Another boat comes up, the man says to the farmer who is now in the second story window, "Jump in, I'll save you."
The farmer again says, "Nope, I put my trust in God."
The boat goes away. Now the water is up to the roof. As The farmer stands on the roof, a helicopter comes over, and drops a ladder. The pilot yells down to the farmer "I'll save you, climb the ladder."
The farmer says "Nope, I put my trust in God."
The helicopter goes away. The water comtinues to rise and sweeps the farmer off the roof. He drowns.
The farmer goes to heaven. God sees him and says "What are you doing here?"
The farmer says "I put my trust in you and you let me down."
God says, "What do you mean, let you down? I sent you two boats and a helicopter!!!"
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When the manual release is used:
o The L-1011 main gear has no up-lock. The lock is on the door and the gear is resting on the door. Door opens gear falls out.
o When the nose gear is unlocked the gear gaps the forward doors and aerodynamics and gravity take over and the nose gear falls out.
o The L-1011 main gear has no up-lock. The lock is on the door and the gear is resting on the door. Door opens gear falls out.
o When the nose gear is unlocked the gear gaps the forward doors and aerodynamics and gravity take over and the nose gear falls out.
There is no alternate hydraulic gear operation on the 767 as far as I know so the TriStar has the customary extra Lockheed redundancy (and complexity, those planes sure have a lot of electrical busses and hydraulic systems).
I believe that the Alternate switch operates an electric motor beneath the flight deck floor that operates cables connected to the uplocks. On the ground the main door locks can be released individually by using a manual lever accessed via hatches under the aircraft (aft of the undercarriage doors?). These levers when operated manually operate the release cables. Perhaps an engineer can confirm.
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Ronald Confirm
Yes can confirm that is the case, the nose gear is unlocked by a cam on the same actuator.
Just a note some 767's (the 400) do have hyd alt system same as the 757
Just like to add great landing lets hope it was'nt due to pilot error in the first place
Just a note some 767's (the 400) do have hyd alt system same as the 757
Just like to add great landing lets hope it was'nt due to pilot error in the first place
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I believe that the Alternate switch operates an electric motor beneath the flight deck floor that operates cables connected to the uplocks.
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I am a bit confused by all the posts on "holding" a c/b in. The alt l/g c/b on the 767 is a trip free c/b. If it pops and the condition that caused it to pop still exists, the c/b can not be held in to force power into the circuit. If the fault is still there, the c/b will pop again regardless of the position of the actuating button. The danger in doing a reset is that power will be introduced into a circuit that may have a fault and during the time it takes for the c/b to react, a severe reaction "could" take place.
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It is possible, but highly unlikely. Center hydraulic systems controls normal gear extention/retraction. Can 'free-fall' gear as long as you retain some main battery power. The fact that the tail-skid was shown extended tells me the handle was in the down position (it goes up and down with the gear handle). It will be interesting to hear what issues this aircraft had. Don't believe that has ever been a 767 gear up landing in its 25+ year history.