Health and Safety in Aviation
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Health and Safety in Aviation
I'm after a bit of advice from anyone if that's possible.
I've just moved into the Health and Safety 'game' (3 years now to be honest) after spending 10 years in the aviation industry.
Like the majority of people who have been involved in the aviation industry, i'm finding it hard to break away and was thinking about combining my new found health and safety skills with my years of aviation experience!
However during my time within aviation i didn't actually notice that any of my airlines had a H&S dept!!
I have searched the usual avenues for jobs with the aviation industry looking specifically at H&S posituion but to no avail.
Can anyone out there point me in a different direction with regards to finding a H&S position with an airline / airport?
Ta
nesboy
I've just moved into the Health and Safety 'game' (3 years now to be honest) after spending 10 years in the aviation industry.
Like the majority of people who have been involved in the aviation industry, i'm finding it hard to break away and was thinking about combining my new found health and safety skills with my years of aviation experience!
However during my time within aviation i didn't actually notice that any of my airlines had a H&S dept!!
I have searched the usual avenues for jobs with the aviation industry looking specifically at H&S posituion but to no avail.
Can anyone out there point me in a different direction with regards to finding a H&S position with an airline / airport?
Ta
nesboy
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I know of several operators & MRO's that have extensive H&S departments, several with environmental people.
It would help if I knew where you live, unless Gods Own Country is England.
Miles
It would help if I knew where you live, unless Gods Own Country is England.
Miles
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Apparently a few years ago the HSE (Health & Safety Executive) in the UK tried to get into the Accident Investigation business. Fortunately they were put in their place by the AAIB.
Quite frankly the last thing we in aviation need is interference in our business by 'Elf and Safety. We are regulated quite efficiently by our CAAs and accidents are investigated by AIBs. Individual Aviation companies have enough 'E & S interference - along the lines experienced by other non aviation businesses.
BD
Quite frankly the last thing we in aviation need is interference in our business by 'Elf and Safety. We are regulated quite efficiently by our CAAs and accidents are investigated by AIBs. Individual Aviation companies have enough 'E & S interference - along the lines experienced by other non aviation businesses.
BD
As operation of both commercial aircraft, licensed airports and ATC Units by law requires maintenance of a Safety Management System, which is h & S based, investigation of possibilities may be worth looking into. Information included in
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP726.PDF
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP760.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP726.PDF
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP760.pdf
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All employers in the UK are required to abide by health & safety regulations and for the majority of aviation companies that have CAA & HSE compliant systems the systems are seperate with little overlap.
The overlap tends to be the requirement for a safety case under SMS and safety/risk assessments under HSE.
Anyone who thinks HSE doesn't apply in aviation may want to reconsider their view as the HSE people don't have much of a scenes of humour when investigating industrial incidents.
Miles
The overlap tends to be the requirement for a safety case under SMS and safety/risk assessments under HSE.
Anyone who thinks HSE doesn't apply in aviation may want to reconsider their view as the HSE people don't have much of a scenes of humour when investigating industrial incidents.
Miles
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Thanks for the replies.
Miles i'm based in Wales, but due to my flying experience i have travelled around to different bases.
You sound like u have experience of H&S?
Nesboy
Miles i'm based in Wales, but due to my flying experience i have travelled around to different bases.
You sound like u have experience of H&S?
Nesboy
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Quite a bit... P.M me if your still looking for a position.
Miles
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Beerdrinker - you are so wrong.
The industry needs exactly that. Who is going to protect people who work for unscrupulous airlines of which there are many?
I work for an operator that doesn't provide the basics of Personal Protective Equipment such as high vis jackets ("buy your own"), ear protection ("we don't care") and makes pilots fuel aircraft without goggles or gloves ("we've come up with a procedure that's impossible to follow that negates the need - so if you have an accident not following it we're not liable"). Not only that they provide bacteria ridden water for their crew to drink every day. All of this is in direct contravention of UK H&S law.
Does anyone interfere or stand up for us as a workforce? I don't see the CAA getting involved and actually enforcing the law. Maybe the HSE aren't so bad after all?
Don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail.
The industry needs exactly that. Who is going to protect people who work for unscrupulous airlines of which there are many?
I work for an operator that doesn't provide the basics of Personal Protective Equipment such as high vis jackets ("buy your own"), ear protection ("we don't care") and makes pilots fuel aircraft without goggles or gloves ("we've come up with a procedure that's impossible to follow that negates the need - so if you have an accident not following it we're not liable"). Not only that they provide bacteria ridden water for their crew to drink every day. All of this is in direct contravention of UK H&S law.
Does anyone interfere or stand up for us as a workforce? I don't see the CAA getting involved and actually enforcing the law. Maybe the HSE aren't so bad after all?
Don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail.
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Al Murdoch
Do you operate for a UK based airline?! If so, all you have described on here is disgusting!
As a person who has left aviation but still has an avid interest i can see where health and safety would easily fit in.
Just this morning i was thinking about all the things i used to undertake in my daily roll and not once did i see a risk assessment or safe system of work for the work activities.
nesboy
Do you operate for a UK based airline?! If so, all you have described on here is disgusting!
As a person who has left aviation but still has an avid interest i can see where health and safety would easily fit in.
Just this morning i was thinking about all the things i used to undertake in my daily roll and not once did i see a risk assessment or safe system of work for the work activities.
nesboy
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I currently work in H&S and specialise in SMS implementation and Risk Management in aviation. Within Aviation as mentioned earlier H&S is looked at in a different way to most organisations.
H&S is seen as a burden to operation and a detriment to bottom line returns. All companies no matter what industry should comply with standard legislation such as 18001, HSG65 etc. I have dealt with numerous Safety Directors for major airlines that don’t even have the slightest clue about hazard, risk identification/prevention or safety but simply got the job because they worked in Ops or for the CAA for so many years!
This problem however is beginning to change within the industry due to pressure from ICAO and EASA to comply with an SMS.
In the normal world outside aviation you have an approved list of H&S practitioners known as CMIOSH who have been accredited and validated to offer competent advice and services.
This should be made mandatory in aviation as the H&S risks are higher compared to some industries and there just simply are not enough good people working in the industry at a high level to offer sound advice and services let alone command a safety team within an airline.
Cheers
V1
H&S is seen as a burden to operation and a detriment to bottom line returns. All companies no matter what industry should comply with standard legislation such as 18001, HSG65 etc. I have dealt with numerous Safety Directors for major airlines that don’t even have the slightest clue about hazard, risk identification/prevention or safety but simply got the job because they worked in Ops or for the CAA for so many years!
This problem however is beginning to change within the industry due to pressure from ICAO and EASA to comply with an SMS.
In the normal world outside aviation you have an approved list of H&S practitioners known as CMIOSH who have been accredited and validated to offer competent advice and services.
This should be made mandatory in aviation as the H&S risks are higher compared to some industries and there just simply are not enough good people working in the industry at a high level to offer sound advice and services let alone command a safety team within an airline.
Cheers
V1
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V1 VR V2.......I agree!
Chartered Health and Safety Practitioners have to go through hell and back to gain the status and that's why they are usually so highly regarded.
I appreciate that experience of dealing with safety issues can make you competent to operator as a Safety Officer (ex amount of flying years, DFO status, TRTO status, Chief Pilot status etc....) but this usually based around the flight safety element and not H&S as a whole.
IMO It would be nice to see the introduction of specific safety qualifications (specifically NEBOSH, minimum IOSH) for safety 'managers' within the aviation industry.
For me to be considered competent in the 'normal' world i am required to have a NEBOSH qualification and a minimum of 3 years relevant experience.
nesboy
Chartered Health and Safety Practitioners have to go through hell and back to gain the status and that's why they are usually so highly regarded.
I appreciate that experience of dealing with safety issues can make you competent to operator as a Safety Officer (ex amount of flying years, DFO status, TRTO status, Chief Pilot status etc....) but this usually based around the flight safety element and not H&S as a whole.
IMO It would be nice to see the introduction of specific safety qualifications (specifically NEBOSH, minimum IOSH) for safety 'managers' within the aviation industry.
For me to be considered competent in the 'normal' world i am required to have a NEBOSH qualification and a minimum of 3 years relevant experience.
nesboy
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nesboy,
I also agree that a standard should be introduced from the authorities. I hold a NEBOSH Diploma and if you look at the accreditations other specific industries have like oil and gas, construction etc i don’t see why one can’t be introduced for aviation.
I did speak to IOSH who mentioned a 1 day training course on aviation but they have nothing in the pipeline for an approved accredited certificate.
V1
I also agree that a standard should be introduced from the authorities. I hold a NEBOSH Diploma and if you look at the accreditations other specific industries have like oil and gas, construction etc i don’t see why one can’t be introduced for aviation.
I did speak to IOSH who mentioned a 1 day training course on aviation but they have nothing in the pipeline for an approved accredited certificate.
V1
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V1
I'm in the final stages of my Diploma. I'm not currently working in the 'Industry' as i'm in the heavy manufacturing industry (Steel).
I can easily see where the skills and knowledge that i have gained over the last few years coupled with my previous aviaiton experience can be put to good use to potentially improve safety within aviation.
From my own experiences the flight safety culture is mature but the H&S aspect is particularly weak.
I remember working for an small regional operator where one of the cabin crew (single crew) bounced off every surface in the rear galley due to turbulance breaking 2 ribs and bruising all over.
She had approximately 3 weeks (maybe more, it was a few years ago) off work due to her injuries. We are talking about a recordable, LTA here! The airline didn't have any H&S presence and a poor flight safety manager at the time.
There was no investigation, next steps to ensure it doesn't happen again, communication to the other cabin crew, updating of the turbulance procedures in the cabin crew manual.....bah bah bah....
That's is where H&S would fit in to the aviation industry!
I'm in the final stages of my Diploma. I'm not currently working in the 'Industry' as i'm in the heavy manufacturing industry (Steel).
I can easily see where the skills and knowledge that i have gained over the last few years coupled with my previous aviaiton experience can be put to good use to potentially improve safety within aviation.
From my own experiences the flight safety culture is mature but the H&S aspect is particularly weak.
I remember working for an small regional operator where one of the cabin crew (single crew) bounced off every surface in the rear galley due to turbulance breaking 2 ribs and bruising all over.
She had approximately 3 weeks (maybe more, it was a few years ago) off work due to her injuries. We are talking about a recordable, LTA here! The airline didn't have any H&S presence and a poor flight safety manager at the time.
There was no investigation, next steps to ensure it doesn't happen again, communication to the other cabin crew, updating of the turbulance procedures in the cabin crew manual.....bah bah bah....
That's is where H&S would fit in to the aviation industry!
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It's important to understand the obligations placed on individuals and organisations by legislation and the responsibilities of different agencies involved in oversight and enforcement of the legislation.
In general terms the HSE looks after personal safety and well-being of individuals in workplaces and the CAA looks after the safety of aircraft operations. More detail of the way that the two organisations work together is available on the CAA web site.
There is undoubtedly a grey area between HSE and CAA responsibilities where, for example, an impact on an individual could affect the safety of a flight or an aircraft maintenance procedure could pose a risk to the engineer following it.
The principles of assuring the safety of individuals and that of aircraft operations are much the same (i.e. effective risk identification, evaluation and mitigation to an acceptable level) but 'top event' is very different. Nonetheless it's not rocket science but rather common sense to most people.
Like so many things these days, we seem to be trying to turn it all into a science with qualifications for 'experts' who then are the only people who can do 'it'. A shame really, because keeping things safe is in everyone's interest and should just be part of everyone's everyday work - not just the experts.
In general terms the HSE looks after personal safety and well-being of individuals in workplaces and the CAA looks after the safety of aircraft operations. More detail of the way that the two organisations work together is available on the CAA web site.
There is undoubtedly a grey area between HSE and CAA responsibilities where, for example, an impact on an individual could affect the safety of a flight or an aircraft maintenance procedure could pose a risk to the engineer following it.
The principles of assuring the safety of individuals and that of aircraft operations are much the same (i.e. effective risk identification, evaluation and mitigation to an acceptable level) but 'top event' is very different. Nonetheless it's not rocket science but rather common sense to most people.
Like so many things these days, we seem to be trying to turn it all into a science with qualifications for 'experts' who then are the only people who can do 'it'. A shame really, because keeping things safe is in everyone's interest and should just be part of everyone's everyday work - not just the experts.
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Nesboy, I have just started my Diploma (Unit A exams in Jan) and have been wondering about how to get into aviation safety too. I am helping my local flying school with their SMS, which is a bit of an insight into some of the other sides to aviation rules and regs. Not as easy as I first thought, admittedly but we are getting there.
I'm currently a private pilot on Rotary and looking to go down the commercial route, but would very much like to use my safety skills and knowledge in this industry too.
Good luck with the Dip exams, let us know how you get on.
Chris
I'm currently a private pilot on Rotary and looking to go down the commercial route, but would very much like to use my safety skills and knowledge in this industry too.
Good luck with the Dip exams, let us know how you get on.
Chris
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As mentioned in the posts everyone has a responsibility to promote and report safety with the organisation no matter how big or complex.
The safety experts remarks are pointed at the Directors of Safety and Senior Safety Managers who should be properly qualified to hold a position like this.
As detailed an ICAO SMS is only effective with top level management input and direction. This cannot be achieved by people who don’t know what there doing and it puts everyone at risk as they are responsible for change management within the organisation and have overall responsibility for the SMS.
A standard certification will be introduced as it’s just a matter of time. EASA stated this fact directly, as in consultants are getting their pockets fed as Safety officials don’t know what to do within regulated organisations.
A reporting culture is part of creating a safety culture which is essential to a successful SMS and safe operation, if the guys at the top don’t direct this then there is no reporting and no culture leaving safety compromised.
Nesboy and Chris good luck with the exams they are a pain but worth it in the end!
The safety experts remarks are pointed at the Directors of Safety and Senior Safety Managers who should be properly qualified to hold a position like this.
As detailed an ICAO SMS is only effective with top level management input and direction. This cannot be achieved by people who don’t know what there doing and it puts everyone at risk as they are responsible for change management within the organisation and have overall responsibility for the SMS.
A standard certification will be introduced as it’s just a matter of time. EASA stated this fact directly, as in consultants are getting their pockets fed as Safety officials don’t know what to do within regulated organisations.
A reporting culture is part of creating a safety culture which is essential to a successful SMS and safe operation, if the guys at the top don’t direct this then there is no reporting and no culture leaving safety compromised.
Nesboy and Chris good luck with the exams they are a pain but worth it in the end!
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The best health and safety bloke I ever knew was one in a small charter/reg 203 mob yonks ago in Oz, long before this so-called confidential reporting system crap ever started. Actually he was a full time engineer but part time H&S (leaned more on the S side but as a member of the St Johns ambo brigade knew a good bit about the S too) and the mob paid him a small allowance for his extra service. This all started with his boss's experiment of wanting "happy safe pilots and staff" even though the boss was a complete arsehole which was the main source of their misery.
Anyway there were no bull**** forms, no indirect company spying, no hidden agendas, no bloody reports (written or verbal), and he detested the DOT as much as everybody else...just come on in sit down and chat about it. He was easy to talk to and even looked like the old friendly bloke who pulls your beers down the pub - in fact very often this is where his sessions ended up finishing - and from what I heard covered everything from burnt arms from hot engines to suicidal tendencies to assisting a sudden birth on board a PA31 to dropping recharged oxy cylinders on toes to addiction of getting high on betel nut(!!?) - things your average DOT "safety" piss ant would love to pull a LAME ticket/CPL for back then.
This gentleman gained trust and integrity from those who sought his advice, so much so he heard more about aviation H&S issues than any damn "safety" official would ever hope for in a lifetime. He even entertained those of us from rival outfits - again all free with no hidden motivation nor agendas (much to the chagrin of his boss).
He took a few notes during each session to help him arrive at a solution and/or formulate useful advice, and afterwards he gave all his notes back to you - and he never kept copies. Sadly he died just after I joined TAA, and of course his funeral was packed with even those who barely knew him.
Why'd he do this? It was universally accepted its what he wanted to do, so that he just might make a difference to some poor cornered bugger who'd never dare go to anyone official. There was a rumor his missus had mentioned he was writing a book about what the official "safety" guys never get to hear about in aviation, but it never came to be (IMO there probably was no such book being writ).
Apart from his advice I learned a lot about how absolute integrity and character is essential in positions such as this. And in my dealings and things I've heard since (examples on request), the bigger the company the less integrity there is. I wouldn't trust the damn sods as far as I could throw 'em - the less "confidential" dirt they have on you the less chance of losing your licence and/or job if you're ever in the hot seat in the future.
PS - before anyone jumps the gun I'm not saying all DOT safety guys were total dicks - Mac Job had impeccable credentials.
Anyway there were no bull**** forms, no indirect company spying, no hidden agendas, no bloody reports (written or verbal), and he detested the DOT as much as everybody else...just come on in sit down and chat about it. He was easy to talk to and even looked like the old friendly bloke who pulls your beers down the pub - in fact very often this is where his sessions ended up finishing - and from what I heard covered everything from burnt arms from hot engines to suicidal tendencies to assisting a sudden birth on board a PA31 to dropping recharged oxy cylinders on toes to addiction of getting high on betel nut(!!?) - things your average DOT "safety" piss ant would love to pull a LAME ticket/CPL for back then.
This gentleman gained trust and integrity from those who sought his advice, so much so he heard more about aviation H&S issues than any damn "safety" official would ever hope for in a lifetime. He even entertained those of us from rival outfits - again all free with no hidden motivation nor agendas (much to the chagrin of his boss).
He took a few notes during each session to help him arrive at a solution and/or formulate useful advice, and afterwards he gave all his notes back to you - and he never kept copies. Sadly he died just after I joined TAA, and of course his funeral was packed with even those who barely knew him.
Why'd he do this? It was universally accepted its what he wanted to do, so that he just might make a difference to some poor cornered bugger who'd never dare go to anyone official. There was a rumor his missus had mentioned he was writing a book about what the official "safety" guys never get to hear about in aviation, but it never came to be (IMO there probably was no such book being writ).
Apart from his advice I learned a lot about how absolute integrity and character is essential in positions such as this. And in my dealings and things I've heard since (examples on request), the bigger the company the less integrity there is. I wouldn't trust the damn sods as far as I could throw 'em - the less "confidential" dirt they have on you the less chance of losing your licence and/or job if you're ever in the hot seat in the future.
PS - before anyone jumps the gun I'm not saying all DOT safety guys were total dicks - Mac Job had impeccable credentials.
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Anyway there were no bull**** forms, no indirect company spying, no hidden agendas, no bloody reports (written or verbal), and he detested the DOT as much as everybody else...
bull**** forms - Documentations is at the heart of an SMS.
company spying - It needs to be backed with rigorous compliance monirtoring.
hidden agendas - The safety plan should be known by all.
no bloody reports - Documentations is at the heart of an SMS.
A hope that now you know better you will mend your ways before there are fatalities.