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Is this a dying breed of Airman / Pilot for airlines?

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Is this a dying breed of Airman / Pilot for airlines?

Old 23rd Dec 2010, 20:01
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Probably the ease that these 200 hr wonders with their Daddy's money slid into the jobs with little personal effort make them like that. In the past you had to earn the FO seat with a lot of experience flying lowly jobs flying freight at night, instructing, etc. Now after Daddy puts you through college he can pay to make you an airline FO with minimal personal effort. Of course he won't respect his captain or feel he needs to do a professional job. He has never done it in his past so why now?
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Old 23rd Dec 2010, 20:05
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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bubbers

As I said:

WHERE'S THE MANAGEMENT?
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Old 23rd Dec 2010, 20:05
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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so perhaps bubbers, you could be paraphrased to 'it takes time and experience to respect the right seat position also'.
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Old 23rd Dec 2010, 20:55
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Over here the 200 wonder cadet is a thing that has been normal for the last 60 years in airlines, so nothing new at all about it.
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Old 23rd Dec 2010, 22:22
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Denti,

Agree entirely that the cadet system is not new however the attitude of a number of these young men and women (not all) has changed in the years I've been flying. I recall a more motivated, enthusiastic and focussed individual than many of those today who appear to have entered aviation by default rather than through desire for a good career and ability.

oldchina,

Yes I'd agree with that to a point as well - weak management right from selection through to the line.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 01:23
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Weak Management

I know I'm an old codger and not a Commercial Pilot, but some of what I read leaves me cold. I have spent tens of thousands of hours as a F/E flying with pilots from both Military and Civil backgrounds. Gentlemen, management is not the sole province of the Administrators. Cockpit management dictates that the Captain is in command, no matter who the Handling Pilot is and, ultimately, it is he/she who bears responsibility for the safety of the aircraft and passengers. To read that some with a Command are concerned that they may upset the F/O by pointing out his/her shortcomings and that to do so may reflect adversely on the Commanders annual evaluation is indicative of the whole society in which we now live. When will someone have the balls to say that the "softly softly" approach does not work? I know I would be much more comfortable flying with a Commander who is not afraid to assert his/her authority when required than flying with one who is fearful of upsetting the "petals" under his/her command.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 04:19
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Korean airlines requirements JOKE or REAL

Total time in excess of 1,000 hours
Excess of 500 hours on B747-400
Last flight on B747-400 within the past 90 days, ideally with 3 take offs and landings (including one at night)

I guess this clearly answers our question. AIRMAN is DEAD.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 05:38
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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note, no navigational experience is requested

korean air...well, their planes are a nice shade of blue...but I wouldn't want to fly for them
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 06:09
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed.
No: you missed the point by several wide miles.

So as this hypothetical Cessna pilot would have had a much more 'eventful' career, may we assume that he would, in all probability, also have much greater airmanship skill?
Why on earth would you assume the Cessna pilot would have a "much more eventful career? Why would you assume that the Cessna pilot would have greater airmanship or skill? Assumptions are ridiculous, but in fine, these particular assumptions are particularly ridiculous.

The pilot who flies a thousand hours has not the same experience as the pilot who flies the same hour a thousand times.

And can we also agree, that subsequently, if he was to get a 747 TR, he may not be a better FO than a 200 hour cadet in routine operations but his prior 'experience' would, in any emergency situation, give him a capabality far beyond that of the cadet?
We cannot agree. We do not know the experience of that pilot. A thousand hours means nothing. The experience he gained in those thousand hours is everything. A thousand hours, or ten thousand hours does not imply experience. It implies ink in a logbook and numbers. Not experience.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 06:29
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Old China and Old Fella - you are both spot on. Management are to blame and do to are the labour government for introducing their education bill where 'everyones a winner' box ticking standard lowering policies designed to make the population think it's getting smarter, and the Legal system for pandering to the 'Claims' that go through the court system to the bonus systems that make management focus on getting bums in cockpits at all costs (without getting sued) to mummy and daddy who don't want their kids playing competitive sports. That is why my FO thought I was wrong to chastise him for using his iPhone to do the walkaround. If I had adopted a stronger stance there is every chance that bloke, if he went on to fail the course, would somehow deem that the catalyst was created by me at that point and his subsequent poor performance was due to his confidence being lost. In essence he would be blaming ME! That may well turn into a disciplinary meeting. No problems there if you handled the student in a polite, friendly, relaxed, positive (you know, all the buzz words) way. Management would then bend over backwards to help him, not because that's the right thing to do but, because they dont need a court case and they do need a pilot.
My rant is over. That feels better. And don't worry Old Fella I will continue to address these issues head on rather than the shrinking violet approach!
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 10:25
  #131 (permalink)  

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"Experience is everything. Hours are without meaning."
Yeah I'm sure Freyholtz and Holland thought the same thing as they piled their hundred million dollar plus aircraft into the ground.

Nearly anything is possible, but not very likely.
Yeah I'm sure Freyholtz and Holland thought the same thing as they piled their hundred million dollar plus aircraft into the ground.

Experience is nothing without the commensurate attitude as these pilots demonstrate.

Keep on trucking.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 13:24
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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I've been there. You know you can't leave the cockpit and know everything is under control so you hold it and pee just before shutting the door. Didn't use to be that way.
On an allied subject, there has been considerable Pprune discussions on the problem as perceived by some of the older correspondents, of lack of manual flying skills in cadet or low hour pilots who have been brought up on a steady diet of all automatics.

The recent Air India Express B737-800 debacle re-ignited that debate on another forum. That was where the captain went for leak and the first officer (who first flew the 737 on graduation as a new pilot) succeeded in losing control of the automatic pilot (now that is a hard thing to do of course). The aircraft did all sorts of unusual attitudes under the temporary command of the panic driven first officer while the captain hammered on the cockpit door trying to get in.

Discussions on the subject of manual versus automatic skills, has been going on in the industry for a few years and more recently where Loss of Control has become the prime common factor of accidents. It used to be CFIT but sophisticated GPWS and other navigational goodies seems to have fixed that problem on most occasions.

A few days ago I picked up a December 1987 Flight International at a garage sale. Lo and behold I found this at page 34 under the heading of the Go-Minded Pilot. It was one of several lectures at the 1987 Flight Safety Foundation's Seminar Tokyo Seminar. Edited for brevity.

Capt Heino Caesar, Lufthansa's GM flight ops and safety said "we have to retrain our crews with advanced simulators to ensure mastery of basic skills and the ability to fly by hand and raw data." Caesar is concerned about the low number of manually flown take-offs and landings in typical long-range operation. The circle pf professionalism began with handling some 30 years ago, and has gone through standard operating procedures, cockpit management, automation and today complacency. We must get back to proficiency again, said Caesar.

Captain Ashok Poduval of Indian Airlines, said automation has led aircraft into unusual attitudes. Quoting the manufacturer of an FMS about "exploiting digital technology to the full", Poduval regretted that while no effort is spared in the development of hardware and softwear, "liveware" issues are often relegated. Poduval is concerned that the pilot systems manager, having done nothing for hundreds of uneventful flights as a "passive, uninvolved watcher," might be suddenly confronted by an emergency requiring him to become an active participant instantly.

He said accident investigation has revealed that very often there is a reluctance on the part of the flight crew to uncouple an automated flight system and take over manual control - even when the automatic system is approaching or operating beyond the system limitation.

Prolonged and error-free functioning by electronic marvels induce boredom and monotony, said Roduval. This leads to complacency and excessive dependance on systems. The pilot expects the automatics to perfom as they always have done, and this aggravates his role as a poor monitor.

Poduval does not think that modern technology can alter the fundamentals of flying. To view it on flat screens "much akin to a realistic 3D video game would be most undesirable and unsafe".
............................................................ ....................................

And that was in 1987. Nothing has changed much, except loss of control accidents have increased. But still airlines and manufacturers continue to push full use of automation without the balance of manual flying to keep up basic flying skills. With the continued introduction of low hour first officers especially into low cost carriers,and their training accent on automation rather than equal accent on manual raw data and automation, watch this space for the next Loss of Control report.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 13:56
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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And now rethink a bit, as you so aptly quote Cpt Caesar was most concerned about the lack of manual flying in its companies long-range operation. Lufthansa always supplied most of its entry level pilots via its own school, aka your typical 200 hour wonder (back then probably 450 hours, nowadays 70 hours). He wasn't concerned about them, he was concerned about his experienced long-range pilots. Of course very strict selection and training provided a pretty good entry level pilot and still does, same for other companies that take it as serious. Not all do though, and those are the ones we all have to be concerned about.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 18:48
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Management are to blame and do to are the labour government for introducing their education bill where 'everyones a winner' box ticking standard lowering policies designed to make the population think it's getting smarter, and the Legal system for pandering to the 'Claims' that go through the court system to the bonus systems that make management focus on getting bums in cockpits at all costs (without getting sued) to mummy and daddy who don't want their kids playing competitive sports.
Congratulations! You have mastered the run-on sentence. After editing it several times to make it intelligible, I strongly suggest a correspondence course in punctuation. You'll be glad you did.
Yeah I'm sure Freyholtz and Holland thought the same thing as they piled their hundred million dollar plus aircraft into the ground.

Experience is nothing without the commensurate attitude as these pilots demonstrate.

Keep on trucking.
Neither one was particularly experienced. Only in the self-celebratory world of the military conceit were they remotely experienced.

As I said, if one flies the same hour a thousand times, it doesn't equate to experience. Hours mean nothing.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 20:09
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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oh boy

ok

if you make 1000 landings at the same airport over a period of two years is one landing any different than the next?

HELL YES IT IS DIFFERENT...the wind is different, the sun angle, the weight of the plane, your fatigue factor

there are all sorts of things to learn for every hour in the air...if you know how to learn
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 21:06
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Inmylastairline
In essence he would be blaming ME! That may well turn into a disciplinary meeting.
Sorry mate - but you've been taken for a PC ride YOU as captain should TELL IT LIKE IT IS

If I'd had an arsy F/O like that he wouldn't even get to use the radios....

The BUCK stops with the skipper..... PERIOD! As our Yankee cousins would say
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 21:28
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If I had adopted a stronger stance there is every chance that bloke, if he went on to fail the course, would somehow deem that the catalyst was created by me at that point and his subsequent poor performance was due to his confidence being lost. In essence he would be blaming ME!
So what?

You're the captain. Think about it. Do you really care which underling blames you? Ultimate responsibility for the safe outcome of the flight rests with you, not your subordinates. Listen to them, cooperate with them, comfort them, teach them...but when it comes to correcting them, do you really give a whit if they like it, or not?
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Old 25th Dec 2010, 09:02
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Hours mean nothing.
You keep saying that, like a broken record, but offer no alternative or method of measuring experience, training....airmanship.
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Old 25th Dec 2010, 09:17
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Really? It bears repeating again, then. Hours mean nothing.
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Old 25th Dec 2010, 09:23
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And yet most, nay all, air operators specify minimum hours for any flight crew vacancy. Go figure?
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