Is this a dying breed of Airman / Pilot for airlines?

[SNS3Guppy]

At last Guppy has admitted he is a keyboard pilot!!!

You, with the reading comprehension problem, again. I saw your PM, fishing once more for material. Forget it. Don't waste my time.

So for the sake of argument, let us accept the points that he is making:

1) Airmanship is irrelevant and following CRM and SOP’s is enough to avert disasters.

2) Training is enough to bring even novices up to acceptable FO standard, prior GA experience is irrelevant.

3) Those who cant make the grade will be cut by those airlines which maintain a high standard.

I said nothing of airmanship being irrelevant, nor of CRM and SOP's being "enough to avert disasters." Put words in your own mouth, not mine. If that's what you believe, fine, but it's not what I said, nor what I believe, and it's incorrect and untrue.

I said nothing about training being enough to bring novices to a standard, nor about irrelevancy of prior general aviation experience. Again speak for yourself, if you can.

If an airline elects to cut an employee who fails to meet specified standards, so be it.

(for as Guppy said, all that is required is training and adherance to SOP's, experience counts for nothing so why should airlines pay for it?)

I said no such thing. Again, can you think and speak for yourself, or must you attempt to build on the words that others didn't say to make the point you don't have?

Experience is everything. Hours are without meaning.

And how about the recalcitrant F/O in a large domestic airline who has been the subject of at least five reports for insolence and deliberate smart-arsing back to captains yet management has a policy of not sacking pilots. The inference from management to those who went to the trouble of writing detailed reports on this character was DEAL WITH IT and don't come to us with your problems.

What has this to do with the price of tea in China?

This is neither a training issue, nor a competence issue.

More over, you've introduced it in response to a comment I made regarding a policy of terminating pilots who fail training events. You're trying to compare contractual policies regarding training with a pilot who makes sarcastic comments? Not an apples-to-apples comparison at all.

Not really related to the thread at all, either.

[misd-agin]

"Experience is everything. Hours are without meaning."

Zero hours = zero experience. You need hours to get experience. There's a balance.

[Jabiman]

Experience is everything. Hours are without meaning

So if experience is not defined by hours, how can it be done, not by flight simulator training by the looks of it:
Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 Aircraft News from Flightglobal

Airline pilot training today is largely based on full-flight simulators that are calibrated to a fairly limited flight-verified and windtunnel tested envelope. Since there is typically no data on which to model handling characteristics in extreme attitudes and post-stall regions, simulators and the pilots flying them can not train in that regime, creating a situation where pilots may experience a condition in flight for which they have not previously trained.

[protectthehornet]

$$$$ and the GA route.

When I was paying for my first ''license'', the quote rate for a private pilot certificate was about $1000.00 us...that's one thousand dollars.

gasoline was pretty cheap at about 35 cents a gallon. a chevy automobile was about 3000 dollars. now a days, gas is about three dollars and thirty cents a gallon, a chevy is between 27,000 and 30,000 dollars...or more actually ( I am comparing camaro to camaro!).

i earned $1.65 an hour working in a crappy hardware store to earn enough to fly.

I really don't think flying is all that expensive if you look at it from all other inflation changes.

And there were not any friendly financing for flight lessons then...it was cash on the barrel head.

if you want to fly, its hard...if it was easy, everyone would do it and there would be alot more crashes.

[Old Fella]

Fishing for information

SNS3Guppy. You, Sir, are one of the most self-opinionated individuals I have ever encountered. Your only response to being told that you have erred is to ridicule those who KNOW YOU ARE WRONG. At least have the intestinal fortitude to admit that you made a mistake, if not publicly, at least with a PM. As for "fishing for information", I will seek authoritative information on a subject from the manufacturer if I need it. In the case I cited your response was "You're Wrong". Well Mr Guppy, I know I was not wrong and, I suspect, so do you. I am amazed that the Moderators allow you to be such an arrogant old man on a public forum. A common aspect of most of your "lectures" is to belittle anyone whom has the temerity to question anything you say. I would guess that I could count your friends on one hand, if not on one finger.

[SNS3Guppy]

So if experience is not defined by hours, how can it be done, not by flight simulator training by the looks of it:

10,000 hours of 747 experience is not the same as 10,000 hours of Cessna 152 experience.

Experience is everything. Hours are not.

[Croqueteer]

Wear heavier boots.

[timzsta]

in my last - well I am just an FI - but I think the problem lies with your FO, not you! I would have expected in the very early stages of his training - ie when he did his night qualification which he needed to do to get his CPL, he would have had it ingrained in him to have two suitable torches and spare batteries.

Sulking when you know you have done wrong. Not very mature.....

[Flatface]

Offer him your flashlight

and suggest that he start his walkaround from the beginning, if he makes any remark besides an apology for coming ill equipped to perform his duties, take his iPhone and call the flight safety manager and request his advise on the matter.

[Old Fella]

"had it in for him"

IMLA, are you for real? As the PIC you don't need to worry about your incompetent F/O complaining about you. You should have given him a dressing down on the spot and told him YOU would request he not be rostered with you again. A walk around at night using an iPhone as a means of illumination is almost so stupid as to be unbelievable. I don't know for whom you work, but if your annual appraisal would be adverse because you pulled the F/O into line you should find another employer. Are you sure you are not looking for a "wind up" here?

[Tinribs]

Your experience indicates a range of problems in your workplace

Why did this FO not have a suitable light with him and why did he not use it or ask for yours. How many of your flights have departed after poor walkrounds by him or others

Using the administrative route how about suggesting at your next training meeting that the company installs suitable torches on the aircraft for walkrounds as some FOs don't seem to have them. The company will, off course, refuse and issue a crew notice reminding all pilots to carry a suitable torch and in the fullness of time a note will appear in your ops manual requiring them to be carried. A suitable simulator scenario inject could make a light handy. word would soon go round.

It might be worth discussing tax allowances with your problem FO and, in a helpfull way, point out that the annual agreed allowance includes such items of personal equipment.

There are a small minority of FOs, and even some captains, who think they win by minimising their part of the job. Usually such an attitude is it's own reward in the long term

Having recently retired after a long and generally uneventfull career I sincerely applaud your attitude in seeking to correct a problem in the most acceptable way. Of such attitudes is good crm and safe flight made

[DADDY-OH!]

'In my last airline',

I can do better than that.

I was PM with a '200hr Boy Wonder' who has established in the Company Inner Circle for a couple of years, down to the Eastern Med' last summer when we encountered the expected CB's over the Balkans. I could see a nasty looking chunk about 100-150 miles ahead over an FIR boundary waypoint. I adjusted my weather radar display until the blob announced itself. I glanced across at my colleague who was examining something on his iphone. I assumed he had spotted said build up & was photographing it.

Then over the r/t traffic ahead of us started asking for deviations upwind (to the south or right of track) of the cell(s) & their adjustments were visible as they were contrailing.

We were now down to around 60-80 miles from the CB's & I was keen to see what 'Boy Wonders' plans to avoid would be so I gently prompted with a "...looks like a bit of weather ahead...". He grunted, glanced up from his iphone, pressed the HDG SEL button & wound it a random amount of degrees to the left, or north or downwind of the cells. I watched him do this & he never checked his radar display, what action other traffic was taking, never asked me to advise ATC or gave me a determined amount of degrees deviation from track. I was stunned.

I simply said "No, *****. I have control", turned the HDG SEL button to a suitable avoiding heading based upon a practical EXPERIENCED BASED ASSESSMENT of what was required & announced to ATC our action.

When I was satisfied we were safely avoiding the CB, I glanced across at the FO to cut him a "I'm very f*****g p****d off with you!" glare only to meet a face of indifference coupled with an iphone earphone trailing out of his right ear & a motor racing game still running on his phone.

Then it spoke. "Don't you ever do that to me again!" I had been warned.

It was checklist items only for the remainder of the flight & subsequent sector & I had no qualms about insisting that rostering/crewing NEVER put us together again. I also told some good friends of mine in the company about this who are Trainers. Apparently his subsequent LPC/OPC was 'interesting'.

I then flew a few weeks later with a very experienced F/O from the self improver route. We were coming back to the UK from the Canaries. Overhead SW Portugal just about to go through the motions of gaining the Oceanic clearance for a Tango route when a cursory check of the systems showed a rapidly reducing level of Crew Oxygen (400psi & falling when should normally be around 1200psi, 1000psi min.downroute despatch). We called Company on HF & they said they would support what ever action we deemed necessary. I suggested the best plan of action would be request a re-route overland & to make best speed to destination with a threshold absolute minimum level of O2 if reached then a diversion.

I was PF & advised the PM that I wanted the radio in order to advise ATC the nature of our problem whilst asking the PM the call company on HF & advise them of our intentions. By the time I had relayed our situation to ATC, copied & confirmed an initial re-route to the next FIR, the PM had retrieved & opened the relevant part of the MEL & PartB, found the required NAV charts & found time to make 'proud' a few agreed potential 'Alternate' Airfield booklets in the NAV bag on my side.

I would never fly with the 200hr Boy Wonder again if I could possibly help it but the experienced self improver I would fly with anytime & hope he was with me if I ever encounter a problem again.

There really is no substitute for experience regardless of what the accountants say & as the bean counters have no operational licence or relevant airmanship experience, I pay scant regard to what they say.

I'm sure if people dug enough, they would discover a correlation between the relative inexperience (against an industry average) of Ryanair crews & their unusually high number of incidents.

[Jabiman]

10,000 hours of 747 experience is not the same as 10,000 hours of Cessna 152 experience.

Experience is everything. Hours are not.

Agreed.
So as this hypothetical Cessna pilot would have had a much more 'eventful' career, may we assume that he would, in all probability, also have much greater airmanship skill?
And can we also agree, that subsequently, if he was to get a 747 TR, he may not be a better FO than a 200 hour cadet in routine operations but his prior 'experience' would, in any emergency situation, give him a capabality far beyond that of the cadet?

[in my last airline]

Folks it was a true story. However, my sarcasm was with the industry best practice way of getting the message across to your colleague without him bursting into tears, or telling his mummy or suing you or the company. It just seems that our hands are tied somewhat and that this poor excuse for an aviator is becoming more apparent. A little bit of stick won't hurt will it? Or shall we just keep stuffing them with carrots? I won't mention FO's turning up with make-up on or ear rings, thats another days work.

The FO's who 'play' with their iphones and sit there in perfect oblivious tranquility with their $1000 noise cancelling headset on are not really pilots are they? What to do?

[Tee Emm]

He grunted, glanced up from his iphone, pressed the HDG SEL button & wound it a random amount of degrees to the left, or north or downwind of the cells

In my day we never gave a first officer a leg. As captain you are fully responsible for choosing to give your first officer a take off or a landing. But never a leg. When the time eventually arrives for the F/O to reach command line training in the left seat, then he can make the decisions under the watchful eye of his training captain and fly the legs as directed.
The flight deck is not a democracy. Too many captains forget that, and bend over backwards to accommodate the first officer while inwardly gritting his teeth when he sees the F/O is not doing what the captain would do himself if he (the captain) had done "the leg".

Sharing responsibility for storm avoidance as in waiting patiently for the copilot to make up his mind which way to turn off track, is a classic example where the captain is abrogating his command responsibility. If the captain has chosen to permit the copilot to fly the complete leg, that is fine. But the captain directs the flight path to avoid storms en-route. He does not ask his copilot which way would he like to turn.

Like his counterpart on an ocean going liner, the captain of an aircraft has reached that rank based upon his maturity and experience. One day his first officer will reach that rank providing he passes the required legislative tests. In the meantime his primary task is that of copilot.

This does not automatically grant the captain the right to act in an arrogant one man band manner. But the time is long overdue when captains should not be overwhelmed by political correctness in terms of fawning to first officers just to be thought the nice guy. . Familiarity breeds contempt on the flight deck as we have seen in this thread where the first officer plays with his personal electronic game during his "leg". Captains need to lift their game and not play "mates" to their copilots. Only then will captains earn the professional respect demanded of their position and responsibility.

[protectthehornet]

in my last airline:

simply point out that if he drops his ipad/ipod or whatever it is, it will cost XXXX to replace. If he drops and damages aflashlight it will cost a couple of bucks to replace.

then do a walk around with him with your normal flashlight, hopefully a big one and that if a stowaway in the wheel well attacked him, you could use your flashlight as a club to defend yourself.

And then do a walkaround and use the superior illumination of your flashlight to discover a problem that he missed.

I could spot a missing rivet at 100 feet...the modern copilot walkaround is: walk under plane, walk away from plane...check to see if you are dirtier or have pieces of plane on your uniform.

check complete.

remember, pilots are cheap and he will want to save his ipad

[DADDY-OH!]

Tee Emm

I sincerely hope you're not insinuating I'm a weak Captain. To assume you know my standards, operating style & cockpit manner when you know neither me nor anyone who has operated with me could be construde as arrogant.

"In my day we never gave a First Officer a "leg"...." speaks volumes... Mayte.

[White Knight]

Sorry daddy-oh, but Tee emm makes a very reasonable assertion Don't EVER take backlip from an F/O

And yep - I'll choose when the F/O gets a leg or not. MY decision and it's final Same for weather avoidance... I'll decide which way to go having listened to the F/O's ideas first - but left or right will always be MY call...

[Reverserbucket]

Very shocked to see an FO doing a walkaround at night using his iPhone as a flashlight!

Probably the same guy who as a student used his mobile phone for timing purposes "well I don't have a watch do I - the school never gave me one" for navigation sorties, or who doesn't wear a belt with his uniform "cos the company doesn't issue one" etc.

There's a lot to be said for basic grooming and conditioning of young people today compared with the past and without meaning to sound like an old fart, I work with a lot of these 200 hour jet-cadets and am frequently surprised at the level of arrogance and lack of self-discipline exhibited in a once proud and highly professional industry.

Is it society and the education system that has given many of them such a strong sense of empowerment which, paired with mediocre technical and communication skills leads to this less than desirable situation?

[oldchina]

Reverserbucket

"Is it society and the education system that has given many of them such a strong sense of empowerment"

No, it's management that doesn't manage.

An annual interview process by a manager telling the truth would sort it out pronto.

Too many "managers" think their job is to be cuddly with their staff, lest they complain.