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Is this a dying breed of Airman / Pilot for airlines?

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Is this a dying breed of Airman / Pilot for airlines?

Old 26th Jan 2011, 14:53
  #261 (permalink)  
 
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No point in complaining about a broken system....you can either choose to be a part of it or not. It's been my experience that hiring from the bottom of the barrel is a uniquely recent phenomenon in very large organizations, looking to fill slots and not enhance performance. Not my thing...I prefer to work for company's that have a mission, and they need it accomplished.
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Old 28th Jan 2011, 08:21
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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Running a cadet program involving ab initio training isn't cheap, of course, although you still can't explain why operations such as Lufthansa have such stellar reputations and histories, while maintaining a longstanding program of hiring inexperienced pilots and providing ab initio training. How is it that they're not falling out of the sky?
The cadet selected in the above scenario will of course be of the highest quality. The point that you are missing is that most airlines have gone over to a user pays system and the question is whether this has resulted in a different breed of airman?
While the motivated individual with a love of aviation is stuck in GA doing the hard yards to gain enough experience to eventually apply for an airline position. Meanwhile, the drongo dropout with rich parents moves straight into the RHS. Eventually all airlines might be forced to adopt this model to remain competative and then the passionate aviators will never get out of GA and in the future may not even bother, going into a more lucrative profession instead and satisfying their dreams of flying as a private pilot.
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Old 28th Jan 2011, 22:51
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odd that engineers and air traffic controllers have yet to have their jobs thrown in the air.

No pun intended.

ps Guppy, you ok ?

Last edited by overun; 28th Jan 2011 at 23:09.
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Old 29th Jan 2011, 01:29
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The point that you are missing is that most airlines have gone over to a user pays system and the question is whether this has resulted in a different breed of airman?
Most? Hardly.

Some. A few. Not many.

Eventually all airlines might be forced to adopt this model to remain competative and then the passionate aviators will never get out of GA and in the future may not even bother, going into a more lucrative profession instead and satisfying their dreams of flying as a private pilot.
Training costs aren't what allow or disallow an airline to remain competitive.

ps Guppy, you ok ?
Fine, so far.
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Old 29th Jan 2011, 04:11
  #265 (permalink)  
 
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of course, there's little point. Having a PhD doesn't make one the best person for the job, just extremely over qualified in some cases. Overqualified for what, is a different matter. Sitting behind a stack of books doesn't necessarily qualify one for much more than passing tests and writing a thesis.


They say that a BS degree is Bull Shit, MS is More of the Same and PhD is just Piling it all Higher and Deeper....
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Old 29th Jan 2011, 16:55
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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I will be the first to say that a college education is one of the most inefficient, money sucking ways to get a general education..

But before you get down on people with degrees, I will say this...just about every major argument I have had with someone, be it conceptual, philosophical, religious....etc...started with the other guy getting only as far as high school...they just can't think for the most part, unless they were self educated.

Honestly, I don't think people should vote unless they have a college degree.
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Old 29th Jan 2011, 23:25
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But before you get down on people with degrees, I will say this...just about every major argument I have had with someone, be it conceptual, philosophical, religious....etc...started with the other guy getting only as far as high school...they just can't think for the most part, unless they were self educated.
That's rather far off track, but are you saying that people without degrees argue more, or are you suggesting that people who don't educate themselves are unable to think?
Honestly, I don't think people should vote unless they have a college degree.
Really? Interesting. Given that voting is a civic duty pertaining to rights and responsibilities as a citizen, what does that do for the rights and citizenship of those who lack a degree, or their legal right to choose not to obtain one?

How does this impact airmanship and the great global conspiracy?
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Old 30th Jan 2011, 04:17
  #268 (permalink)  
 
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Guppy...this is what I was responding to....by Pugilistic...sorry for the thread wandering off.. -They say that a BS degree is Bull ****, MS is More of the Same and PhD is just Piling it all Higher and Deeper....- But with regard to your thoughts...I didn't mean to imply un-educated people argue more, they just can't get the concepts that someone with a degree can...not always of course...but for the most part...they just don't have the exposure, the education to get the deep ideas...sounds horrible...but you know it's tough to ask someone to talk rocket science, if they haven't studied it. With regards to civic duty and all that...I think that anyone, everyone, and everyman voting has about run it's course. Politicians pandering to emotions and buzz words rather then facts, follow though, and reality has got to end. Dumb people need to be managed, not put in charge.
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Old 30th Jan 2011, 06:34
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Personally, I prefer a hand-flown approach and I do all departures by hand;
Wash your mouth out with soap, Guppy

20 years ago I was invited for tea and bikkies by the chief pilot of a well regarded Boeing 737 German charter operator. A couple of cadet first officers dobbed me for hand flying a SID raw data and other dreadful hand flying sins. They themselves were the product of the system that says manual flying is practically PAN PAN stuff.

The chief pilot was a kindly man and told me gently that his first officers were not trained to "monitor" raw data flying especially if hand flown, and thus were out of their comfort zone. Autopilot monitoring was their forte and would I please desist from being non-standard. By now these cadets would be experienced captains with thousands of hours on automatic pilots. This is now a permanent fact of life in most airlines including the major players such as Qantas, BA and Cathay.
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 07:53
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Dumb people need to be managed, not put in charge.
Those without a degree are "dumb?"

Can you spell 'arrogance?'
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 21:28
  #271 (permalink)  
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Dumb people need to be managed, not put in charge.

While we might respect your right to hold your view, the real world doesn't support it to the extent you suggest.

I have to observe that a bit of paper, while being useful as an employment thing, appears rarely to correlate well, necessarily, with intelligence or ability .. more often, only earlier life opportunity for whatever reason. Indeed, there are brilliant folk with and without degrees .. and more than a few idiots around either with or without.

Or, as a colleague (who had no bits of paper) from my early days opined .. "you graduate chaps need us uneducated folks to run businesses so you can look forward to getting a job ... "
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 05:17
  #272 (permalink)  
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Tee Emm: your story epitomizes the point of this thread. Such a "skill" is deemed unwanted and un-necessary nowadays by too many up and comers, as well as too many operators. In fact, from your post such skills are not welcomed it seems. What's worse, some people do not acknowledge this as happening in the industry.

True story: 2 x illustrious B777 "Commanders" (as they insist on being called) from Air India were operating from EWR to FRA. They called a Boeing engineer from JFK to urgently come to EWR. The flight was obviously delayed. The "Commanders" were unable to program the route in the FMC. They were newly checked to line on the 777 (from the 744). For verification ask the JFK Boeing engineers. So, how did these guys get endorsed let alone checked to line as Captains on the type? Again some will argue that there is no slipping of standards.

Tertiary qualifications are nothing more than a piece of paper that allows a box to be ticked for a job application. Having said that, those who seek to improve their knowledge (theoretical) base in their chosen field should not be discouraged. For example; being able to calculate weather conditions, cloud types and predicted areas of instability from weather balloon soundings, all plotted on a met sounding chart will never be used in the real world. BUT, to have the understanding and appreciation of how our forcastes are calculated at a grass roots level is not a bad thing. In the same way, most of us (I hope) could discuss in detail wing design, longitudinal, normal and lateral stability (stick fixed and stick free), Vmcg, Vmca, etc. We can use this background knowledge to better appreciate our job, what we do and how we do it.

To some employers a tertiary credential shows that the candidate has the capacity for higher learning. Not saying either way if I agree with that sentiment, just stating what some CP's and / or companies I have experienced have believed that and recruit as such.

So, it comes down to the airline's requirements and desires as well as filter systems to determine who they select of the candidates. Nowadays there are far too many examples of short course pay-for-degree courses (eg: http://www.whnt.com/news/whnt-amcom-...,3254099.story). The same goes for hours in the log book. On the selection panels I've been a part of we look at the facility the credentials were obtained from in the same way we considered the type of hours the candidate had accrued. A degree from uncle Bob's Academy of Excellence that is a post office box in the mid-west is different to a degree in Aerodynamics from M.I.T. Just as 2000 hrs of VFR operations instructing in the circuit or training area is completely different to 2000 hrs of single pilot multi-engine night IFR in OCTA with NDB and circling approaches in all types of weather and commercial pressures.

But, as we've seen testimony from numerous people posting on this thread (especially the Australian Capt's submission to the Senate Inquiry), too many airlines see credentials and experience are nothing but costs when they can fill the same control seats with lessor experienced pilots (loose term) who are willing to do it for far lessor pay. Others will argue that the [airline] training or standard of [new] hired pilots are not compromised by commercial influences, all be it in the face of overwhelming evidence and eye witness accounts to the contrary.

Last edited by TopTup; 1st Feb 2011 at 05:54.
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 06:47
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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Given the tiny, narrow performance box in which airline operations conduct business, it's little wonder that many basic skills erode. Airline pilots have long been considered one of the more dangerous groups of renters when it comes to light airplanes. This isn't an indictment on the large airplane pilot, but it does spak to the lack of experience or recency in a particular area. Get someone who has only flown a 747 for several years to go land a Cessna 172, and see them try to flare high, fly the approach fast.

Skills are perishable.

Likewise, if one doesn't fly a visual approach for a long time, and sticks to only flying ILS approaches by reference to instruments, one may be less than stellar at making an approach using only ones eyes for reference (vs VASI, PAPI, glideslope, etc).

Where airlines push hard for their crews to make full use of automation and advanced technology, policies are often instituted requiring the use of that equipment. My own employer requires a written report to the Chief Pilot for failure to use autobrakes, for example. Landing performance is calculated using autobrakes, given a known acceleration value, and that value remains constant even with reverse thrust. Thus, it makes sense. Some operations have very different policies with regard to the same equipment.

Where operators insist on training and flying with the flight director as the minimum standard for "raw data," those receiving that training never have the opportunity to experience flight without the flight director. I can speak to several operations in which this is the case; worse-case scenario in simulator training involves no autopilot and flight director only, with FMC/FMS functions available. To my mind, this doesn't represent a high degredation in aircraft capability, and thus doesn't really address a potential real-world situaiton in which more might be lost. The operators with whom I am familiar who do this are not budget crunching, nor are they using inexperienced pilots. They are focusing on training based on reality. Their training is conducted hand in hand with the manufacturer, hand in hand with the overseeing governing body, and hand in hand with data showing mean times between failure for their equipment, and what historically can be expected. Accordingly, they make maximum use of training time addressing operational issues that are expected.

What this does NOT represent is a global conspiracy to lower the standard of airmanship, in order to save money. Certainly one can expect, where hand-flying is discouraged or restricted, a decrease in certain hand-flown skills. I've seen more than a few experienced hands reach for automation as soon as possible, particularly in a time of stress. It's taught at nearly all levels, where automation is available, to make use of that automation. It's standard fare to use it as much as possible during a checkride, for example, to reduce workload and provide one the greatest opportunity to show strengths and not weaknesses. Let's face it, given a checkride, who choses to fly it all by hand on raw data? That's not a "beancounter" debacle; that's a pilot call that nearly all will make.

When the chips are down and you're being evaluated, do you choose to handfly on raw data, or do you choose to use automation?
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 08:52
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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Guppy, you make some good points. I don't think it's a conspiracy either. I suspect that what laziness was instilled in the chief pilots to rely on the gear, has probably translated into hiring kids who need the autopilot to fly and big tubes to give them situational awareness.
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Old 1st Feb 2011, 09:29
  #275 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ff
...translated into hiring kids who need the autopilot to fly and big tubes to give them situational awareness.
Before we all get carried away with our fantasies about the new breed of incapable airline pilots, let me remind people that, of the six fatal accidents to scheduled airline flights in 2010, all happened to experienced pilots (I do acknowledge, but not necessarily agree with, Lebanese comments about the experience of the Ethiopian Airlines crew), and two happened to highly-automated aircraft in which experienced pilots executing routine manoeuvres appear to have mishandled some aspects of the automation somehow.

None happened to inexperienced pilots in a position in which they had to fly pitch, power, bank, AS, VS for a while and lost it.

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Old 1st Feb 2011, 19:27
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I looked at most the replies so I am not sure if anyone has posted anything on this thread, regarding this but in my personal opinion, the biggest thread comes from these schemes that are offered for people to buy hours.

This results to guys/girls logging hours NOT base on their ability to achieve minimum standards to join an airline but based on their deepness of their pockets.

Some users might not agree , others might do.

I am not after a debate.

CY
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Old 2nd Feb 2011, 01:33
  #277 (permalink)  
 
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l don`t know much.

One of the few things l do know.

lf anybody actually wants to be in charge of other people they should be automatically barred from doing so.

As the old man on Pawn Stars said about his son, he`s often wrong, but never in doubt.
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Old 5th Feb 2011, 16:47
  #278 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by overrun
lf anybody actually wants to be in charge of other people they should be automatically barred from doing so
Very entertaining, overrun!

Did anyone else notice the practical contradiction involved in this suggestion?

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Old 6th Feb 2011, 20:52
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Just us l suppose.

lf a higher plane was involved then.... Doh !

You made me laugh.
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Old 15th Feb 2011, 03:27
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but if your FO is from the USA, don't ask if its a sector ONE, TWO, OR THREE entry...we wouldn't have a clue

we use the terms: direct, teardrop, parallel!

;-)
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