Adding flaps DURING takeoff roll on 737
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People make mistakes and pilots are people.
I can recall one or two occasions in years gone by when we have missed whatever. One stops, fixes it, if appropriate, or does whatever might be appropriate, and then continues .. even if that involves taxying back to the start position or having to eat a bit of umble pie.
Better embarrassed than dead.. if there is any need for embarrassment ...
I can recall one or two occasions in years gone by when we have missed whatever. One stops, fixes it, if appropriate, or does whatever might be appropriate, and then continues .. even if that involves taxying back to the start position or having to eat a bit of umble pie.
Better embarrassed than dead.. if there is any need for embarrassment ...
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No one quarrels with that John, but this was not a single error event but a complex, lengthy, considered and utterly deliberate series of inappropriate decisions that fly in the face of any kind of airmanship, sommon sense, fundamental safety judgement let alone SOP, and was emphatically NOT appropriate action. It's utterly beyond belief that someone would continue a take-off with the config warning howling and then start looking around to see what's wrong instead of concentrating on what they're supposed to be doing, ie the stop that's now mandated, and all the time accelerating towards, what? Then "ping", "Oh b&gger it's the flaps", "****! Flaps five, now!" all the time with the horn blaring and the aircraft accelerating, then the doubt, "wonder how long it takes, is there enough time?", the horn still blaring and the aircraft approaching V1 by now with flaps still travelling and both white-knuckled crew with a death-grip on their seat cushions thinking "shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!"... There is no way whatsoever but guesswork to tell if there is enough time to get enough flap to be safe. None whatever. Some professionalism, that!
Wilful, deliberate and repeated contempt for SOPs in this most dangerous of situations cannot be excusable beyond insanity or gross professional negligence, and would probably be called criminal today if it had resulted in an accident.
imho it's a summary hanging offense for both pilots. End of.
Wilful, deliberate and repeated contempt for SOPs in this most dangerous of situations cannot be excusable beyond insanity or gross professional negligence, and would probably be called criminal today if it had resulted in an accident.
imho it's a summary hanging offense for both pilots. End of.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 18th Dec 2010 at 11:58.
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BOAC:
Because we had two terrible crashes in the U.S. due to this, it is a certainy there were "X" times more that caught it and got away with it. My view is, "thank God for the warning horn" and, further, that should be redundant with today's technology.
No doubt this "cowboy" act is really bad airmanship. But, there are a lot of other acts of poor airmanship that have resulted in flying into the ground or the side of a mountain far too often.
And, there are always shades of grade, such as a lightly loaded 727-100 taking off Day VFR on a long, dry runway, and the captain immediately figures out the problem as takeoff power is applied.
If, as may appear to be the case, your "More than a few crews have forgotten to set the flaps for takeoff, then when the warning sounds off with application of takeoff power the crew wakes up and selects takeoff flaps and presses on with the takeoff." is correct, it appears that training and airmanship have failed - I have no other solution - do you? At least, stopping the 'cowboys', even AFTER a "a successful shoot-out" might prevent another from the same?
No doubt this "cowboy" act is really bad airmanship. But, there are a lot of other acts of poor airmanship that have resulted in flying into the ground or the side of a mountain far too often.
And, there are always shades of grade, such as a lightly loaded 727-100 taking off Day VFR on a long, dry runway, and the captain immediately figures out the problem as takeoff power is applied.
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Not suggesting that one should go with the warning horn sounding and, certainly, not suggesting that those who might do so are doing the sensible thing.
Rather, mistakes are endemic and one needs to drill down a bit into the whys and wherefores.
Certainly, discipline is what saves the day for most of us, most of the time ...
Rather, mistakes are endemic and one needs to drill down a bit into the whys and wherefores.
Certainly, discipline is what saves the day for most of us, most of the time ...
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Originally Posted by aterpster
And, there are always shades of grade, such as a lightly loaded 727-100 taking off Day VFR on a long, dry runway, and the captain immediately figures out the problem as takeoff power is applied.
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the SOP didn't change...
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As the flaps were not in take off configuration, Take off warning came on when they pressed the TOGA switches to set take off power . Up to there, just a little crew mistake of having forgotten the flaps. That's why the take off warning is there. But to continue the take off is a foul play!!!
The QAR should have marked that even, and if the Company Flight Safety Officer did his job, they've been invited for "tea and biscuits" if not worse...
The QAR should have marked that even, and if the Company Flight Safety Officer did his job, they've been invited for "tea and biscuits" if not worse...
