RT a Dying Skill....
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A few more that come to mind over the past week or so traveling the skies....
"Check'in wid ya on twenny one nine...." heard it (diff freq's of course) all too often. Why not just give the standard & required call? I know it sounds cool to you but others think you sound just plain unprofessional.
The correct & proper use of the word HEAVY. On first contact with the TERMINAL RADAR AREA prefix the callsign with "HEAVY". The ICAO standard is for any aircraft taking off with a gross weight of 300,000 lbs (140,000 kgs) or more to use the term "heavy" in radio communications BELOW 18,000 ft AMSL. In the US, the threshold for "heavy" is 225,001 lbs (115,700 kgs) or more. The term HEAVY may be omitted after initial contact with ATC.
As a Capt, or especially in anyone in the training department of any size operation, carrier, or airline I believe it is your / our responsibility to set the standards. (It should be bread & butter at flying schools). Where knowledge is missing employ some basic CRM and use the time in cruise when able to pull out the books! That also means that you have to allow the FO to point out a few things in your direction.... At the end of the flight I'm sure many beers will be owed to each other. Part of the fun & part of the professionalism.
As some others mentioned, there is a definite trend to some airlines and some regions. Waaaay back when I was on the receiving end of a hard-ass (but fair) Capt he commented that poor RT by the FO is a reflection on him as Capt as it is his name on the flight plan, let alone the others at your airline or operation. If ATC get the ****$ & wish to file a report, whose name do they see? And "we" have a preconceived collective opinion gained already be these previously mentioned regions and / or carriers by way of example.
Set a standard, not stoop down to one.
"Check'in wid ya on twenny one nine...." heard it (diff freq's of course) all too often. Why not just give the standard & required call? I know it sounds cool to you but others think you sound just plain unprofessional.
The correct & proper use of the word HEAVY. On first contact with the TERMINAL RADAR AREA prefix the callsign with "HEAVY". The ICAO standard is for any aircraft taking off with a gross weight of 300,000 lbs (140,000 kgs) or more to use the term "heavy" in radio communications BELOW 18,000 ft AMSL. In the US, the threshold for "heavy" is 225,001 lbs (115,700 kgs) or more. The term HEAVY may be omitted after initial contact with ATC.
As a Capt, or especially in anyone in the training department of any size operation, carrier, or airline I believe it is your / our responsibility to set the standards. (It should be bread & butter at flying schools). Where knowledge is missing employ some basic CRM and use the time in cruise when able to pull out the books! That also means that you have to allow the FO to point out a few things in your direction.... At the end of the flight I'm sure many beers will be owed to each other. Part of the fun & part of the professionalism.
As some others mentioned, there is a definite trend to some airlines and some regions. Waaaay back when I was on the receiving end of a hard-ass (but fair) Capt he commented that poor RT by the FO is a reflection on him as Capt as it is his name on the flight plan, let alone the others at your airline or operation. If ATC get the ****$ & wish to file a report, whose name do they see? And "we" have a preconceived collective opinion gained already be these previously mentioned regions and / or carriers by way of example.
Set a standard, not stoop down to one.
Heard a new one today from a colleague parked a few stands down in Malaga... "xxxxx, approaching being fully ready, could you send a ready message please..."
"Approaching being fully ready"???!!!
"Approaching being fully ready"???!!!
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<<at LHR it was just what was said, "clearance correct, call fully ready on xyz.ab", maybe people had been cheating there too, who knows?>>
Probably in the thousands, for years and years and years..... (Probably changed now I've gone!!)
Probably in the thousands, for years and years and years..... (Probably changed now I've gone!!)
Only half a speed-brake
Me splitting hairs ? .. never happened.
FD (the un-real)
PS: The too / tree point is very valid, IMHO. It also applies to us non-native speakers who try so hard to impress yet forget to use the correct standards that were implemented to help us in the first place.
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Just read your CAA relevant RT papers and use them!
There may be few differences between ICAO and JAA but all in all if they are recognized by your relevant authority where is the problem?
I personally think the UK CAA RT is of the highest standard for many reasons and is always improving based on Human errors and potential incidents and pilot recommendations...
Using proper RT is essential in an increasingly busy airspace and not maintaining a proper level of RT is a sign of poor airmanship and lack of professionalism.
If the frequency is very busy and you think the proper phraseology would not be appropriate,just check in with your call sign initially and if ATC is ready for your more info he/she will say some like GO AHEAD and you can revert to std RT.
As an FO a few years back,my captain (from a distant eastern country) had the bad idea to use poor RT during departure...it went like that..
Captain:"Amsterdam departure,#### 123, Airborne"
Amsterdam ATC:"####123,CONGRATULATIONS,say passing altitude"
Needless to say i was so embarrassed i wished i weren't flying that day..
Yesterday flying over Hong Kong FIR:
ATC: "USA airline 123, descend to FL 240"
USA Airline123:"departing 360 4 240"
A few seconds later:USA Airline123:"say again cleared level?"
Obviously his poor RT messed himself up....
Be professional,keep your RT sharp!
About the FULLY READY thing, it may also be due to the fact that even though the flight deck is ready for departure, the CABIN may be not!
It has happened that a HEAVY US airliner in CPH blocked the runway for at least 3 mins because he accepted a line up clearance without its cabin being ready...
There may be few differences between ICAO and JAA but all in all if they are recognized by your relevant authority where is the problem?
I personally think the UK CAA RT is of the highest standard for many reasons and is always improving based on Human errors and potential incidents and pilot recommendations...
Using proper RT is essential in an increasingly busy airspace and not maintaining a proper level of RT is a sign of poor airmanship and lack of professionalism.
If the frequency is very busy and you think the proper phraseology would not be appropriate,just check in with your call sign initially and if ATC is ready for your more info he/she will say some like GO AHEAD and you can revert to std RT.
As an FO a few years back,my captain (from a distant eastern country) had the bad idea to use poor RT during departure...it went like that..
Captain:"Amsterdam departure,#### 123, Airborne"
Amsterdam ATC:"####123,CONGRATULATIONS,say passing altitude"
Needless to say i was so embarrassed i wished i weren't flying that day..
Yesterday flying over Hong Kong FIR:
ATC: "USA airline 123, descend to FL 240"
USA Airline123:"departing 360 4 240"
A few seconds later:USA Airline123:"say again cleared level?"
Obviously his poor RT messed himself up....
Be professional,keep your RT sharp!
About the FULLY READY thing, it may also be due to the fact that even though the flight deck is ready for departure, the CABIN may be not!
It has happened that a HEAVY US airliner in CPH blocked the runway for at least 3 mins because he accepted a line up clearance without its cabin being ready...
A few aggravations..........
1. UK PPL's talking to major airport controllers for advisory service and giving their life histories whilst commercial operators are trying to get a word in edgeways.
2. Spanish and to a much lesser degree French pilots and controllers talking to each other in their native language at major international airports. I can manage most of the latter but very little of the former - hard to keep track of whats going on both in the air and on the ground. Its not that they cannot do it - they just don't !
3. Endless US carrier chit-chat across the pond on 123.45.
4. The 'Guard-Police' who don't actually listen to the transmission on 121.5 before jumping in.
5. The incredibly slow Italian Volmet service and the almost impossibly fast Greek equivilant - somewhere in-between will be just fine guys.
6. Frequency changes at BHX on departure just as we are cleaning-up and completing checks.
Grumpy Old Man - yep
1. UK PPL's talking to major airport controllers for advisory service and giving their life histories whilst commercial operators are trying to get a word in edgeways.
2. Spanish and to a much lesser degree French pilots and controllers talking to each other in their native language at major international airports. I can manage most of the latter but very little of the former - hard to keep track of whats going on both in the air and on the ground. Its not that they cannot do it - they just don't !
3. Endless US carrier chit-chat across the pond on 123.45.
4. The 'Guard-Police' who don't actually listen to the transmission on 121.5 before jumping in.
5. The incredibly slow Italian Volmet service and the almost impossibly fast Greek equivilant - somewhere in-between will be just fine guys.
6. Frequency changes at BHX on departure just as we are cleaning-up and completing checks.
Grumpy Old Man - yep
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Had a beauty in NZ years ago. There were 2 aircraft, one was DBC and the other EBC (they may not be their real identies). The habit from a controller was to use the last 2 letters in their callsign to give instructions. One day "Bravo Charlie cleared for takeoff". Problem was one a/c was on Rwy 20 and the other was on Rwy 11. It was a near miss at the runway intersection. 
After that it was ALWAYS the 3 letter callsign.
I later discovered the importance of always using your callsign. I had flown a particular aircraft for several months so the callsign was burnt into my brain. One day flying a different machine I kept using the brunt in callsign much to my embarrassment
and ATC annoyance. Lesson learned.
After that it was ALWAYS the 3 letter callsign.
I later discovered the importance of always using your callsign. I had flown a particular aircraft for several months so the callsign was burnt into my brain. One day flying a different machine I kept using the brunt in callsign much to my embarrassment
and ATC annoyance. Lesson learned.
de facto -I have been the captain of a 'heavy' cleared to line up @ LAX -all checks and cabin secure given -due to a serious incident in the cabin we were unable to accept take off clearance,ostensibly 'blocking' the runway while the problem was resolved.Sometimes it would help to have the awareness and intelligence to understand each other's jobs;it did not stop the tower controller sending a tirade of criticism in our direction -completely unprofessional imho.It works both ways.
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Olster,
Obviously I wasnt there in LAX with you and I have no idea whether your cabin was ready when they gave you the go ahead or what the "incident" was all about.
What i know is if your cabin brings up a cabin problem after line up is received (obviously telling you briefly what the problem is),one can find out if the delay may cause a problem to ATC.
I am pretty sure that all aircraft have by law 90 seconds on the take off point before being on their way.
But standing there for 3 minutes by just stating the cabin is not ready and not exiting the active runway will cause problems to all around you...
Just a thought...
Obviously I wasnt there in LAX with you and I have no idea whether your cabin was ready when they gave you the go ahead or what the "incident" was all about.
What i know is if your cabin brings up a cabin problem after line up is received (obviously telling you briefly what the problem is),one can find out if the delay may cause a problem to ATC.
I am pretty sure that all aircraft have by law 90 seconds on the take off point before being on their way.
But standing there for 3 minutes by just stating the cabin is not ready and not exiting the active runway will cause problems to all around you...
Just a thought...
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<<I am pretty sure that all aircraft have by law 90 seconds on the take off point before being on their way>>
Not in any civilised country I am aware of! I've seen aircraft line up and then been unable to take off. It's no big deal to see what they want to do get them off the runway.
Not in any civilised country I am aware of! I've seen aircraft line up and then been unable to take off. It's no big deal to see what they want to do get them off the runway.
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Had a technical malfunction on the runway once.
CAPT went back to idle to check and I on the mic to tell tower we needed 30 more seconds to figure out.
Reply: No worries and to the aircraft in approach. Expect late landing clearance, prepare for go-around runway still blocked.
The guys acknowledged. Unable for a quick fix we told TWR that we would taxi forward for the next exit to sort out the problem OFF the runway. Other aircraft landed.
My opinion: Whatever you do, just let the other party (ATC) know in a timely manner. Never had a problem so far.
CAPT went back to idle to check and I on the mic to tell tower we needed 30 more seconds to figure out.
Reply: No worries and to the aircraft in approach. Expect late landing clearance, prepare for go-around runway still blocked.
The guys acknowledged. Unable for a quick fix we told TWR that we would taxi forward for the next exit to sort out the problem OFF the runway. Other aircraft landed.
My opinion: Whatever you do, just let the other party (ATC) know in a timely manner. Never had a problem so far.
