RT a Dying Skill....
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<Personally I have a tendency to not use my callsign at the end of direct established communications. I should become better at this, but I don't feel it's a huge safety issue:
Lydd: G-ZZZZ, report passing Tenterden.
Me: Reporting Tenterden.
>>
It's a massive safety issue Adam. I can't believe that a pilot would omit his callsign from a transmission. On a busy LARS frequency it could be a nightmare for the controller. In the case above all you would need to say is "Golf Zulu Zulu passing Tenterden".
Lydd: G-ZZZZ, report passing Tenterden.
Me: Reporting Tenterden.
>>
It's a massive safety issue Adam. I can't believe that a pilot would omit his callsign from a transmission. On a busy LARS frequency it could be a nightmare for the controller. In the case above all you would need to say is "Golf Zulu Zulu passing Tenterden".
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, I was being unclear - this was just acknowledging his request for me to report at Tenterden when I get there. When I reach Tenterden later I will of course use my callsign as some time then has passed and we have to re-establish communication.
Another example:
Farnborough: G-ZZZZ, re-contact me on 123.225.
Me: Re-contacting on 123.225.
I feel there's not much ambiguity here as it's specifically directed at me, although I should prob end with my callsign. It just feels like a bit of a waste of time as he knows it's me - who else would respond to that callsign?
Another example:
Farnborough: G-ZZZZ, re-contact me on 123.225.
Me: Re-contacting on 123.225.
I feel there's not much ambiguity here as it's specifically directed at me, although I should prob end with my callsign. It just feels like a bit of a waste of time as he knows it's me - who else would respond to that callsign?
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: .
Age: 37
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lydd: G-ZZZZ, report passing Tenterden.
Me: Reporting Tenterden.
Me: Reporting Tenterden.
Some get their knickers in an awful twist over RT. The fact is we're all human and we all make mistakes. Although some don't seem to think before pressing the Tx button...
"Engage brain before opening mouth"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<I should prob end with my callsign. It just feels like a bit of a waste of time as he knows it's me - who else would respond to that callsign?>>
All manner of people; you'd be amazed!
Please get used to using your callsign every time. It's no big deal and may prevent an incident.
All manner of people; you'd be amazed!
Please get used to using your callsign every time. It's no big deal and may prevent an incident.
#3 (permalink)
HEATHROW DIRECTOR
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 65
Posts: 4,605
You might like to know that back in the late 60s pilots flying for a small British airline called BOAC used to read back absolutely everything so it's hardly new!!
HEATHROW DIRECTOR
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 65
Posts: 4,605
You might like to know that back in the late 60s pilots flying for a small British airline called BOAC used to read back absolutely everything so it's hardly new!!
When someone jacked up and had a go at this idiot, he replied loftily that it was a requirement to read back all ATC transmissions. After this aircraft left tower frequency for ground frequency, bugger me he read back everything all over again. Highly unprofessional and distracting to others captive audience to his blathering..
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Readbacks are required for a specific number of things.
Any clearance.
Runway
Altimeter setting
Level.
No doubt others can add more.
If it isn't a clearance then don't read it back, just acknowledge with a Roger or Wilco.
And never, NEVER use the word "Fully" fer chrissakes. It is so very very gash. Quite apart from being a tortology.
(Nearly as bad is a cringe-making and pretentious "the" prefixing a callsign )
Please don't use "please" as in "Request taxi please". We're communicating, not being drawing-room smarmy-polite.
etc!
Any clearance.
Runway
Altimeter setting
Level.
No doubt others can add more.
If it isn't a clearance then don't read it back, just acknowledge with a Roger or Wilco.
And never, NEVER use the word "Fully" fer chrissakes. It is so very very gash. Quite apart from being a tortology.
(Nearly as bad is a cringe-making and pretentious "the" prefixing a callsign )
Please don't use "please" as in "Request taxi please". We're communicating, not being drawing-room smarmy-polite.
etc!
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 12th Jun 2010 at 23:31.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 716
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apart from the obvious, such as what has to be read back, callsign use, general RT practical use etc, I have another little thing that I learnt during one of my first line checks during commercial aviation: "every number has a name".
Trying sound cool, like all those other pilots, I'd say something like "Callsign XXX, 159 for 240 to YYYYY". The check pilots logic was that since "every number has a name", it should be "Callsign XXX, flightlevel 159 climbing flightlevel 240 inbound YYYYY".
Obviously, since my callsign that day was "xxx 61" it would sound like "xxx 6115942402yyyyy", which makes a whole lot of sense to me, since I said it, but it might not to others.
I've never seen said "rule" in any book, but I think it makes good sense.
Trying sound cool, like all those other pilots, I'd say something like "Callsign XXX, 159 for 240 to YYYYY". The check pilots logic was that since "every number has a name", it should be "Callsign XXX, flightlevel 159 climbing flightlevel 240 inbound YYYYY".
Obviously, since my callsign that day was "xxx 61" it would sound like "xxx 6115942402yyyyy", which makes a whole lot of sense to me, since I said it, but it might not to others.
I've never seen said "rule" in any book, but I think it makes good sense.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Over Mache Grande?
Posts: 563
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"XXXX standby"
"standing by XXXX"
MAN - DLM - MAN the other day - my Skipper and I were discussing this thread, and so were listening avidly. On 6 occasions when asked to stand-by, the pilots reported standing by!
I don't want to turn this into a nationality thing, but all of them seemed to be Middle Eastern / Asian or Mediterranean. Perhaps it's harder when English isn't your first language?
DW.
MAN - DLM - MAN the other day - my Skipper and I were discussing this thread, and so were listening avidly. On 6 occasions when asked to stand-by, the pilots reported standing by!
I don't want to turn this into a nationality thing, but all of them seemed to be Middle Eastern / Asian or Mediterranean. Perhaps it's harder when English isn't your first language?
DW.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,095
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And never, NEVER use the word "Fully" fer chrissakes. It is so very very gash. Quite apart from being a tautology.
In places like Palma, being told to call 'fully ready' was the normal, as so many operators would call, 'ready' knowing it would take a while to get their clearance, but with steps still at the aircraft and passengers boarding.
However much one may not like the word, 'fully' it didn't creep in without good reason.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 716
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fail to see the problem with just "ready", not "fully ready". Isn't it obvious the "fully ready" came in because people called ready when they really weren't? If you're not ready, don't 
say you are then, it's that easy.
say you are then, it's that easy.
this was just acknowledging his request for me to report at Tenterden
ATC: "XYZ report passing Tenterden"
Your reply "XYZ".
With you.
So very many native English speakers (ha!) use this utterly pointles and timewasting sorry piece of non-standard RT.
London, good morning it's the birdseed 989 with you flight level 380 on course to bla bla bla
With or without you mate, life goes on!
And since more than one of you brought up the native tongue, a big please to all native UK-English speakers: ICAO pronunciation for two is too, three is tree. Two and three, pronounced in your native UK accents are often indistinguishable from each other to non-natives. Both sound like thuuei to our ears! UK ATC is the most professional, pleasant and non-arrogant ATC unit in Europe if you ask me, but this too/tree issue really needs to be sorted out.
So very many native English speakers (ha!) use this utterly pointles and timewasting sorry piece of non-standard RT.
London, good morning it's the birdseed 989 with you flight level 380 on course to bla bla bla
With or without you mate, life goes on!
And since more than one of you brought up the native tongue, a big please to all native UK-English speakers: ICAO pronunciation for two is too, three is tree. Two and three, pronounced in your native UK accents are often indistinguishable from each other to non-natives. Both sound like thuuei to our ears! UK ATC is the most professional, pleasant and non-arrogant ATC unit in Europe if you ask me, but this too/tree issue really needs to be sorted out.
Last edited by PENKO; 13th Jun 2010 at 14:15.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,095
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're not ready, don't 
say you are then, it's that easy.
say you are then, it's that easy.
The Scandinavians had the right idea, on any Saturday in summer it was a common sight to see five or six stretched DC8s on the tarmac at Palma or Ibiza etc. One round trip, well over 200 punters out and back, no problem.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RT wise, we all live in a glass house, so I'm reluctant to criticise (except for fully ready!!). However, why is is that some professional pilots don't have the wit, courtesy or common sense to wait just a few seconds before transmitting when they change frequency? Do they think they're the only aircraft in the sky?
Fred
Fred
Join Date: May 2004
Location: in a hotel
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SIDs
xxx approach this is xxx123 passing 2100ft climbing FL50 Ortac 1 Alpha departure.
SIMPLES!!!!!!!!
When I used to teach fresh PPL's from Southampton I used to drill them on RT because if it came naturally and was diciplined it allowed more capacity to fly the aircraft. But its not always the pilots, I had cause once to ask a tower controller when was the last time he had read cap 413, radio silence ensued!!!!
AND
AdamFrisch USE YOUR CALL SIGN everytime please.
xxx approach this is xxx123 passing 2100ft climbing FL50 Ortac 1 Alpha departure.
SIMPLES!!!!!!!!
When I used to teach fresh PPL's from Southampton I used to drill them on RT because if it came naturally and was diciplined it allowed more capacity to fly the aircraft. But its not always the pilots, I had cause once to ask a tower controller when was the last time he had read cap 413, radio silence ensued!!!!
AND
AdamFrisch USE YOUR CALL SIGN everytime please.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: N.Ireland
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fred I'm sure if you tried you would find that after a certain frequency range change the antenna needs to retune, which is done by pressing the TX switch. Until this point you may not have heard the first exchange that you have just cut into. There is also the case of a controller transmitting on more than 1 frequency simultaneously in which case you may not hear the ongoing transmissions from another aircraft.
Posiible case of unnecessary sarcastic criticism?
Posiible case of unnecessary sarcastic criticism?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Parabellum, to continue your "logic" if people start to call "fully ready" with doors still open I suppose the European RT language modification facility at Palma will begin to insist we call "Completely fully ready????" Five years later it will be "Completely fully utterly entirely doors shut stairs removed poised to leap into action like a striking slug ready".
"fully" is meaningless b&llocks and should not be used. We'll be saying "like" or "sort of thing" in every sentence next!
"fully" is meaningless b&llocks and should not be used. We'll be saying "like" or "sort of thing" in every sentence next!
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,095
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AB - it was ATC that asked for 'fully' ready, knowing that there were cheats out there abusing the system, (Palma) and at LHR it was just what was said, "clearance correct, call fully ready on xyz.ab", maybe people had been cheating there too, who knows? In Spain particularly people were calling 'ready' when they were not and thereby screwing up the system.
Not sure if it still happens but things got so bad at some airports that ATC required a call from the ground crew as well, confirming all doors closed and stairs removed.
Oh yes, 'my logic' said nothing at all about calling fully ready with doors open.
Not sure if it still happens but things got so bad at some airports that ATC required a call from the ground crew as well, confirming all doors closed and stairs removed.
Oh yes, 'my logic' said nothing at all about calling fully ready with doors open.