Can medicine learn from aviation?
Thanks for that KY.
Makes a change me getting something right on Proon.
Makes a change me getting something right on Proon.
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Can medicine learn from aviation?
Absolutely, positively yes! I had an excellent presentation from Trevor Dale during my MCC course. He is co-founder of a company that helps the healthcare industry learn the techniques that the airlines have been mastering for decades. Read the following for more:
Atrainability Human Factors Training Critical Team Performance Heathcare Aviation Customer Services
Of course, aviation can learn from medicine also i.e. having both a regulator and a trade union who ensure access to their industry is based purely on academic ability and not on financial ability, the end result being a very high standard of entrant and protected attractive terms and conditions of employment, which then attract the next generation of highly capable students. Compare this to the commercial pilot industry where access to all the training schemes and the vast majority of jobs is increasingly based on ones ability to hand over huge amounts of money, all for the prospect of a rapidly diminishing return on the costs incurred in getting there.
Without a doubt the greatest concern has to be for the erosion of safety being offered to the paying public both in the here-and-now and in the longer term as the attraction of this industry to those of high aptitude decreases proportionally with the decreasing terms and conditions, and this is before we even consider the problems of finding the skills required from a talent pool ever decreasing in size due to ability to pay.
The next concern is for those who, despite the freefall in potential income, are still attracted to professional flying and do actually manage to get the lucky break into the industry - if not being backed financially by others they are going to find themselves in a position where they are unlikely to be offered a mortgage or, if they are, it is likely to be in a very inhospitable area - cue pissheads and druggies running amok at all hours of the night - not very conducive to a good nights sleep. Add to this the fact that the house price will dictate where the pilots live - meaning a likely huge commute to work - and an ever present battle to meet training loan repayments, mortgage repayments and general life costs, and you are looking at a very tired, stressed, fatigued crew member. Is this what airline accountants and executives, Balpa and the CAA consider to be desirable in the flightdeck? For all my amazement in the leaps and bounds in safety aviation has achieved - most noticeably in the last few decades - I am absolutely gobsmacked that those who are entrusted with its guardianship have sat back fat, dumb and happy as the lessons of the past so painfully learned are kicked under the carpet, and all so shareholders and executives can have more money. What was it Abba sang about money? Ah yes, must be funny in a rich man's world. Well, let's all hope that the s**t doesn't hit the fan as a result of putting all the financial risk onto the future flightdeck........nothing funny about that!
The last concern is for those who never manage to get their lucky break in the flying world. A rejection from medicine school may prove hugely disappointing but it at least allows one to refocus and get on with one's life. Compare that with someone unable to gain a flying position post qualifying. The flight training industry doesn't have the number restriction that the medicine world insists on, the end result being many thousands from across Europe ending up some tens of thousands of pounds in debt with the sad fact that there are nowhere near enough jobs to go round. Now I'm all for competition but when it comes down to those not attaining their dream being left with a crippling debt that will have a monumental effect on the rest of their life, I think that something should be done, namely regulating the numbers that can train. The result would be a higher standard of pilot coming out of the training industry, which can only be a good thing for the all concerned. And for those who don't meet the standard, it protects themselves from themselves and the unscrupulous in the flight training industry. The question is, are the airlines and the aviation authorities going to act any time soon, or are they crossing all their fingers and toes in the hope that cockpit technology, good luck and the Gods will make up for the undeniable decrease in safety that is now upon us.
VC10 Rib22
ps sorry for the length of reply, maybe I should have just wrote 'yes'.
Absolutely, positively yes! I had an excellent presentation from Trevor Dale during my MCC course. He is co-founder of a company that helps the healthcare industry learn the techniques that the airlines have been mastering for decades. Read the following for more:
Atrainability Human Factors Training Critical Team Performance Heathcare Aviation Customer Services
Of course, aviation can learn from medicine also i.e. having both a regulator and a trade union who ensure access to their industry is based purely on academic ability and not on financial ability, the end result being a very high standard of entrant and protected attractive terms and conditions of employment, which then attract the next generation of highly capable students. Compare this to the commercial pilot industry where access to all the training schemes and the vast majority of jobs is increasingly based on ones ability to hand over huge amounts of money, all for the prospect of a rapidly diminishing return on the costs incurred in getting there.
Without a doubt the greatest concern has to be for the erosion of safety being offered to the paying public both in the here-and-now and in the longer term as the attraction of this industry to those of high aptitude decreases proportionally with the decreasing terms and conditions, and this is before we even consider the problems of finding the skills required from a talent pool ever decreasing in size due to ability to pay.
The next concern is for those who, despite the freefall in potential income, are still attracted to professional flying and do actually manage to get the lucky break into the industry - if not being backed financially by others they are going to find themselves in a position where they are unlikely to be offered a mortgage or, if they are, it is likely to be in a very inhospitable area - cue pissheads and druggies running amok at all hours of the night - not very conducive to a good nights sleep. Add to this the fact that the house price will dictate where the pilots live - meaning a likely huge commute to work - and an ever present battle to meet training loan repayments, mortgage repayments and general life costs, and you are looking at a very tired, stressed, fatigued crew member. Is this what airline accountants and executives, Balpa and the CAA consider to be desirable in the flightdeck? For all my amazement in the leaps and bounds in safety aviation has achieved - most noticeably in the last few decades - I am absolutely gobsmacked that those who are entrusted with its guardianship have sat back fat, dumb and happy as the lessons of the past so painfully learned are kicked under the carpet, and all so shareholders and executives can have more money. What was it Abba sang about money? Ah yes, must be funny in a rich man's world. Well, let's all hope that the s**t doesn't hit the fan as a result of putting all the financial risk onto the future flightdeck........nothing funny about that!
The last concern is for those who never manage to get their lucky break in the flying world. A rejection from medicine school may prove hugely disappointing but it at least allows one to refocus and get on with one's life. Compare that with someone unable to gain a flying position post qualifying. The flight training industry doesn't have the number restriction that the medicine world insists on, the end result being many thousands from across Europe ending up some tens of thousands of pounds in debt with the sad fact that there are nowhere near enough jobs to go round. Now I'm all for competition but when it comes down to those not attaining their dream being left with a crippling debt that will have a monumental effect on the rest of their life, I think that something should be done, namely regulating the numbers that can train. The result would be a higher standard of pilot coming out of the training industry, which can only be a good thing for the all concerned. And for those who don't meet the standard, it protects themselves from themselves and the unscrupulous in the flight training industry. The question is, are the airlines and the aviation authorities going to act any time soon, or are they crossing all their fingers and toes in the hope that cockpit technology, good luck and the Gods will make up for the undeniable decrease in safety that is now upon us.
VC10 Rib22
ps sorry for the length of reply, maybe I should have just wrote 'yes'.
Can medicine learn from aviation?
Just to turn the situation around (and shake it a bit) to see what falls out.
The question is presumptuous. Why should we think that medicine can learn from aviation; is aviation that good, has aviation something to offer?
Exchange of information, yes; similar training / management techniques, maybe; same context, probably not.
James Reason is the oft quoted aviation safety guru, but the majority of his work, and for some his most effective work, was in medicine. Thus, perhaps aviation should be learning from medicine (and possibly has, but not necessarily successfully).
Does the assumption that aviation has something to offer to medicine imply that aviation knows about these safety, human factors, and CRM things?
The principles of safety (risk, and risk management) are reasonably common amongst industries.
Human Factors is a wide ranging and nebulous discipline, in which some selectivity in domain or activity is required, e.g. human behaviour.
CRM it all depends on how this is defined;
CRM is like a bidet except that everyone knows what it is for, but no one knows what it is.
If we take a very close look at aviation, can we really identify quantifiable success with HF / CRM training, and if so, how has this been achieved. Then, will the subject aspects and processes transfer to medicine (or vice versa).
Perhaps the training, tools / techniques can be or have already been transferred; but what about those successes ?
The question is presumptuous. Why should we think that medicine can learn from aviation; is aviation that good, has aviation something to offer?
Exchange of information, yes; similar training / management techniques, maybe; same context, probably not.
James Reason is the oft quoted aviation safety guru, but the majority of his work, and for some his most effective work, was in medicine. Thus, perhaps aviation should be learning from medicine (and possibly has, but not necessarily successfully).
Does the assumption that aviation has something to offer to medicine imply that aviation knows about these safety, human factors, and CRM things?
The principles of safety (risk, and risk management) are reasonably common amongst industries.
Human Factors is a wide ranging and nebulous discipline, in which some selectivity in domain or activity is required, e.g. human behaviour.
CRM it all depends on how this is defined;
CRM is like a bidet except that everyone knows what it is for, but no one knows what it is.
If we take a very close look at aviation, can we really identify quantifiable success with HF / CRM training, and if so, how has this been achieved. Then, will the subject aspects and processes transfer to medicine (or vice versa).
Perhaps the training, tools / techniques can be or have already been transferred; but what about those successes ?
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VC10 Rib22 your appraisal of the aviation industry as it stands appears to be a growing concern. See:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...-aviation.html
Perhaps its not a case of what medicine can learn from aviation but what aviation can learn from medicine in terms of how its industry is managed. There's not doubt both can benefit from the transfer of knowledge from each other and which I think is being facilitated by the likes of Air2Med Consultants and Atrainability.
The principal difference being, however, is the context in which both industries operate within. The UK NHS is a public service with full accountability under one roof and whilst I am sure market forces influence operating procedures it will never be to the same extent of the aviation industry which is fully exposed and fragmented in the private sector.
Commercial constraints are more lethal to the individual operator (possibly an arguement for why we are seeing the rise of P2F schemes) and I dont see the govt rushing to buying any of the airlines in this current climate.
Perhaps the opportunity for Air2Med and Atrainability is to act as a 2 way shuttle and educate the aviation industry as well. They could take NHS learnings about training, selection, recruitment T&Cs and the impact that has on safety?
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...-aviation.html
Perhaps its not a case of what medicine can learn from aviation but what aviation can learn from medicine in terms of how its industry is managed. There's not doubt both can benefit from the transfer of knowledge from each other and which I think is being facilitated by the likes of Air2Med Consultants and Atrainability.
The principal difference being, however, is the context in which both industries operate within. The UK NHS is a public service with full accountability under one roof and whilst I am sure market forces influence operating procedures it will never be to the same extent of the aviation industry which is fully exposed and fragmented in the private sector.
Commercial constraints are more lethal to the individual operator (possibly an arguement for why we are seeing the rise of P2F schemes) and I dont see the govt rushing to buying any of the airlines in this current climate.
Perhaps the opportunity for Air2Med and Atrainability is to act as a 2 way shuttle and educate the aviation industry as well. They could take NHS learnings about training, selection, recruitment T&Cs and the impact that has on safety?
Last edited by Pilot Positive; 5th Apr 2010 at 12:16.
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Dochealth
I came on to this trhead kinda lat at night so I wont write much but the simple answer is yes. I'm a risk manager for a large NHS trust and so I deal with serious untoward incidents.
Drop me a private message and maybe we can get talking. I have long been interested in CRM and its use in hosptial settings. Incident investigation too. I suspect that we have very much to share.
Speak soon
MD
I came on to this trhead kinda lat at night so I wont write much but the simple answer is yes. I'm a risk manager for a large NHS trust and so I deal with serious untoward incidents.
Drop me a private message and maybe we can get talking. I have long been interested in CRM and its use in hosptial settings. Incident investigation too. I suspect that we have very much to share.
Speak soon
MD
