call or ignore

[littlejet]

If you see the aircraft lining up in front of you with some snow/ice on his wings or fuselage, not much but enough in your opinion for calling a de-ice crew, would you call the guy/girl on the radio?

[doubleu-anker]

Good question.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

You will never know the answer to your question until after the point of rotation, of the aircraft you refer.

Suffice to say taking off with any contamination on the aircraft whatsoever, especially the flying surfaces, the crew become test pilots. No two cases of contamination are the same.

[4Greens]

Damned if you don't - Call

[exeng]

Always call with respect to contaminated wings. Can't see why you could ever be wrong to alert the crew. After your call it is their 'call'.


Regards
Exeng

[Centaurus]

Always call with respect to contaminated wings

Not in China, though. Taking off with contaminated wings is normal in that country and based on Karma and the balance of probability, they seem to always get away with it. Mind you the odd one or two have gone in but soon forgotten

[ab33t]

I say call , you have nothing to loose , they have

[Genghis the Engineer]

Why on earth would anybody not call? Minimal embarrassment versus risk of loss of an aircraft. Plus all you're doing is providing information, the captain of the other aeroplane will make the decision and, whilst it's perhaps cluttering the frequency a bit, you can always give a bit more in the way of description so that they can make their decision.

G

[Brian Abraham]

Air Ontario Flight 1363 was an Air Ontario flight of a Fokker F28-1000 Fellowship which crashed near Dryden, Ontario on March 10, 1989 immediately after take-off en route from Thunder Bay to Winnipeg via Dryden. The aircraft crashed after only 15 seconds because it was not able to achieve enough altitude to clear the trees beyond the end of the runway due to ice and snow on the wings, causing the death of 21 of 65 passengers and 3 of 4 crew members.

A dead heading crew member (Captain) noticed the build up on the wings and when asked why he didn't advise the operating crew cited it would have been professionally in courteous to interfere with another crews operation.

SPEAK UP.

Then there was the Air Florida 737 into the Potomac with terrible loss of life.

[littlejet]

And how about if he/she starts rolling but you are certain that there was no t/o clearance given?
That looks even blurrier to me.

[exeng]

littlejet

Nothing blurry about that one either. If you believe that somebody has misunderstood any ATC clearance then it is your responsibility to point it out.

Regards
Exeng

[parabellum]

Rolling without TO clearence.

I saw this happen once, I absolutely knew the chap in front wasn't cleared and I could hear him spooling up and starting forward, I used his callsign and simply said, "XYZ rolling", immediately ATC jumped on it and he was told to hold his position, which he then did.

[Union Jack]

Damned if you do .....

..... as Light Twin Driver discovered at some length in the strange case of http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...c-cowboys.html

If you see the aircraft lining up in front of you with some snow/ice on his wings or fuselage, not much but enough in your opinion for calling a de-ice crew, would you call the guy/girl on the radio?


Jack

[doubleu-anker]

The above mentioned post did and still does give me great cause for concern. The company mentioned is a "flag carrier", therefore they have the pick of the bunch. In other words the elite.

Makes me wonder what the culture is within these establishments. What do they teach them? That they are the best of the best therefore infallible and are above oversights and mistakes?

If that is how the elite carry on, there ain't much hope for the rest of us is there.

[4Greens]

It should be kept in mind that the flightcrew cannot see the wings from the flightdeck.

[doubleu-anker]

Granted if they stay in their seats.

However opening the DV window and sticking ones head out may help, depending on the type of aircraft we are referring to. What is wrong with sending a cockpit crewmember down the back to view the wings? Or are sop's so rigid now that this is not an option. Oh hang on! Isn't the cockpit door locked after engine start?

[Piltdown Man]

I'd call it and not worry about the consequences of doing so. I'd do the same if I saw a technical deficiency about to take-off and have done so a few times. I'd worry more if I didn't make the call. I'd also appreciate someone calling me if I was about to depart with a contaminated aircraft. And if I need to open the cockpit door to go back and look at the wings, I will.

PM

[Hansard]

I'd say always call. "Better safe than sorry", as they say, and I think we all have a responsibility/duty of care to other flight crew, pax, relatives of the dead if it comes to that ("at least someone tried") etc.

[clunckdriver]

If they are senior to you on the company list, say nothing, if not, give them a call! {Do I have to explain that this is a joke?}

[Manual Braking]

I'd say always call too.

This kind of scenario reminds me of an incident I witnessed a good few years back. A small turboprop was waiting at the holding pt. behind an A320. The pilot of the turboprop told ATC that the A320 had a hatch open just below the R2 door. The A320 pilot requested a return to stand so an engineer could investigate. A few minutes later the A320 called up ATC to say it was the cabin air outflow valve, and is usually open on the ground. Needless to say there was red faces all round.

However, 'if in doubt, shout!'.

MB

[PENKO]

Well, I might as well pop the question here. I know the Fokker 100 does not have slats, but can they take off without flaps? Or is it visually hard to tell if they have TO flaps set? I ask because I did mention it once on the radio when I saw a Fokker lining up with what appeared to be no flaps...

Got no response and they took off.