What makes a good (and bad) FO ?
Drain Bamaged
......and GET YOUR BL**DY HAND AWAY FROM THE BACK OF THE THRUST LEVERS DURING MY TAKE-OFF!!!! When I want your help fine tuning the thrust setting I will ask for it!
Bah!
Bah!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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I suspect Kiltie is referring to the myriad 737 F/Os who do not understand the way the 737 sets take-off N1, and finish up poking and shoving at the levers unecessarily, normally resulting in the wrong N1.
A constant education process. Boeing have a publication telling all about it which I carry with me.
A constant education process. Boeing have a publication telling all about it which I carry with me.
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BOAC - correct.
It is not SOP to have the PM guarding or nudging the thrust levers from behind during the take off roll; this is an age-old "habit" that I have never seen printed anywhere. I don't do it to my FOs so why should they do it to me? I find it intrusive and as BOAC says more often than not the FO attempts to forcibly assist the A/T with a manual shove resulting in an exceedance of N1. Boeing FCTM states that the PM should verify that take off thrust has been set and THR Hold is engaged. Thrust should be adjusted IF REQUIRED to-0% +1% target N1.
ehwhatezedoing perhaps your company has its own SOP over and above Boeing's which is commonplace and in which case you are correct in your situation.....
It is not SOP to have the PM guarding or nudging the thrust levers from behind during the take off roll; this is an age-old "habit" that I have never seen printed anywhere. I don't do it to my FOs so why should they do it to me? I find it intrusive and as BOAC says more often than not the FO attempts to forcibly assist the A/T with a manual shove resulting in an exceedance of N1. Boeing FCTM states that the PM should verify that take off thrust has been set and THR Hold is engaged. Thrust should be adjusted IF REQUIRED to-0% +1% target N1.
ehwhatezedoing perhaps your company has its own SOP over and above Boeing's which is commonplace and in which case you are correct in your situation.....
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Well, that's two of us on the same script, anyway
- and then often it results in THR HLD cutting in just as the A/T over-compensates for 'eager young pusher' and N1 ends up BELOW target, but 'eyp' does not notice 'cos the job is done, innit?
more often than not the FO attempts to forcibly assist the A/T with a manual shove resulting in an exceedance of N1.
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(can't wait for 411A's inevitable input)
I leave the First Officer alone to do his job (they get at least 60% of the sectors anyway)...if he wants my advice I expect he will ask for it.
Exception..I will speak up only if the situation is getting out of hand, and the First Officer does not notice the trend.
Haven't had to do the latter in years...
What makes a good (and bad) FO ?
A Captain who can see the FO’s point of view, who can provide explanation and guidance in operations, and who sets an example in leadership and professionalism …. You get what you are.
FO’s – do what your replacement would do tomorrow.
To intervene or not to intervene? The co-pilot's catch 22.
CRM More than just Talk, Talk,Talk,Talk.
The Better the Team, the Safer the World.
The Learning Process
FO’s – do what your replacement would do tomorrow.
To intervene or not to intervene? The co-pilot's catch 22.
CRM More than just Talk, Talk,Talk,Talk.
The Better the Team, the Safer the World.
The Learning Process
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Understand that the captain may be the biggest 
in the company but he is the commander of the aircraft.
Once you have got to grips with that the rest should fall into place naturally.
in the company but he is the commander of the aircraft.Once you have got to grips with that the rest should fall into place naturally.
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Unfortunately, it's often the FO who is more SOP compliant and has to adapt to the guy in the other seat which shouldn't happen, but is frequently the case.
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A37575 - That is very disappointing to hear.
From a newish FO who continues to strive for my own personal improvements in SOP application and flying ability, it saddens me to hear of colleagues (from any airline) with inappropriate attitudes to their job.
And what a job it is
From a newish FO who continues to strive for my own personal improvements in SOP application and flying ability, it saddens me to hear of colleagues (from any airline) with inappropriate attitudes to their job.
And what a job it is
Thread Starter
Understand that the captain may be the biggest in the company but he is the commander of the aircraft.
Once you have got to grips with that the rest should fall into place naturally.
in the company but he is the commander of the aircraft.Once you have got to grips with that the rest should fall into place naturally.
- allow the captain to fly his own way and deliberately not follow SOP ?
- allow the captain to bully you and not stand up yourself ?
- not point out any errors the captain might make (so not to embarass him)
- not make any standard calls if the captain is outside tolerance /about to exceed limits (no to embarass him / allow him to be a rebel) ?
- allow the captain to exceed company limits and not say anything to him ? (not to embarass him / allow him to be a rebel)
- adapt to the captains non-standard ways and fly the non-standard way he (she) likes to fly ?
- always agree with the captain when you know he is wrong ?
- never to consult any documents to point out what the books say to him (her) (when you know you are right) ?
- not offer any advice/suggestions to the captain (because it will be against his pride to listen to you) ?
- allow the captain to discourage you from following SOP ?
- allow the captain to teach you his non-standard ways ?
- make detailed notes on each captain I fly with (because they are all so different) so that I can alter how I fly depending on the captain I fly with ?
- pretend to treat the captain like your best friend even though he is the biggest
?
Buttonpusher
John Citizen,
Pull what simply said that the captain is ultimately in charge of the aircraft, like him or not the seat position is to be respected, not necessarily the individual.
It would be your professional obligation to address all the points you have just so well made.
I was an F/O for 12 years and 7 as a Flight Engineer before upgrading to the left seat and discovered while I was there that those sitting in the left seat are not infallible, but they were the final arbiter of decisions, with or without your input.....hopefully with.
Pull what simply said that the captain is ultimately in charge of the aircraft, like him or not the seat position is to be respected, not necessarily the individual.
It would be your professional obligation to address all the points you have just so well made.
I was an F/O for 12 years and 7 as a Flight Engineer before upgrading to the left seat and discovered while I was there that those sitting in the left seat are not infallible, but they were the final arbiter of decisions, with or without your input.....hopefully with.
