Unauthorised RT in KOS
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Unauthorised RT in KOS
On departure from LGKO, (KOS), and restricted to 4000ft due to inbound traffic at 5000ft, on the SID.
One male ATC controller on duty ( I assumed), and the inbound was on TCAS, with restriced procedural descent, due to our departure.
Then an authorative female voice, (greek sounding), passed the instruction A.ABCD climb to FL90, just after we reported level at 4000ft.
Because it was so obvious that a) this was a stupid, and b) not a ATC request, was ignored.
However it happened, and could have caused an accident.
Beware,
heated.
One male ATC controller on duty ( I assumed), and the inbound was on TCAS, with restriced procedural descent, due to our departure.
Then an authorative female voice, (greek sounding), passed the instruction A.ABCD climb to FL90, just after we reported level at 4000ft.
Because it was so obvious that a) this was a stupid, and b) not a ATC request, was ignored.
However it happened, and could have caused an accident.
Beware,
heated.
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You need to expand on your post. Therefore, with the best of intentions I have some questions to clarify the situation;
How do you know it was not an ATC request?
Did you question the call?
How did you know at that moment it wasn't a shift change?
Were you following a TCAS RA?
Were you basing your decision on your interpretation of the TCAS screen?
Did you have access to their Radar screen?
Did you know the closing vector of the other traffic?
What was the outcome of your non-compliance?
Would you ignore other ATC communications based on your opinion and where do you draw the line?
It is quite common that these places have a supervisor who will speak up if the 'trainee' controller doesn't issue instructions quick enough. There may also have been fast moving military traffic that you were unaware of...
But quite right, they do make mistakes as you say....
How do you know it was not an ATC request?
Did you question the call?
How did you know at that moment it wasn't a shift change?
Were you following a TCAS RA?
Were you basing your decision on your interpretation of the TCAS screen?
Did you have access to their Radar screen?
Did you know the closing vector of the other traffic?
What was the outcome of your non-compliance?
Would you ignore other ATC communications based on your opinion and where do you draw the line?
It is quite common that these places have a supervisor who will speak up if the 'trainee' controller doesn't issue instructions quick enough. There may also have been fast moving military traffic that you were unaware of...
But quite right, they do make mistakes as you say....
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thanks for taking the time
I can not be 100% certain it was not an ATC request, but the only controller in the tower was male. within 5 seconds he gave the instruction remain at 5000ft to the other guy.
No TCAS involved except we say him, and heard his clearance, and thus would in a non radar environment with out positive radial/dme or visual position confirmation never accept the climb. We called in at 10dme, mostly fopr the other traffics awareness, it was not an ATC request
Been working into Greece for many many years, the procedural controllers were and still are fantastic.
I was basing my reluctance to climb based on the TCAS info available, ( I am well aware of the errors in position that TCAS can give, and the ATC discussions re position of other traffic.
There is NO radar at this island airfiled all is procedural, ATC is called TOWER, and Approach control conducted by Rhodes.
Output of non compliancewas a safer flight, 3 mins later we were at 15d, and had seperation, the controller then cleared us to climb, and contact Rhodes.
As to closing vector, I can not be certain as TCAS is not that accurate but he was level at 5000ft, and we were 4000ft, ATC requested procedural seperation, and we complied. As ATC were concerned as to the vertical seperation, it would have been churlish to accept an unknown voices instruction to climb.
As to supervisor, yes that is entirely possible, but this male controller was very good, and there were only two aircraft in his sky at the time.
Fast moving Mil traffic, yes always possible, but in this exact location most unlikely.
The line is drawn at the point where the ATC instruction makes the hairs on the back of your head stick out.
If I heard a voice that sounded like a 5 year old girl, I might just ignore, and when able ask for clarification.
Many thanks for the input, I thrust the responses satisfy the court of enquiry.
It was not a mistake, for all the reasons above, it was in my humble oppinion an unauthorised ATC breakin.
re ASR, that is still an option, and is under consideration.
heated
No TCAS involved except we say him, and heard his clearance, and thus would in a non radar environment with out positive radial/dme or visual position confirmation never accept the climb. We called in at 10dme, mostly fopr the other traffics awareness, it was not an ATC request
Been working into Greece for many many years, the procedural controllers were and still are fantastic.
I was basing my reluctance to climb based on the TCAS info available, ( I am well aware of the errors in position that TCAS can give, and the ATC discussions re position of other traffic.
There is NO radar at this island airfiled all is procedural, ATC is called TOWER, and Approach control conducted by Rhodes.
Output of non compliancewas a safer flight, 3 mins later we were at 15d, and had seperation, the controller then cleared us to climb, and contact Rhodes.
As to closing vector, I can not be certain as TCAS is not that accurate but he was level at 5000ft, and we were 4000ft, ATC requested procedural seperation, and we complied. As ATC were concerned as to the vertical seperation, it would have been churlish to accept an unknown voices instruction to climb.
As to supervisor, yes that is entirely possible, but this male controller was very good, and there were only two aircraft in his sky at the time.
Fast moving Mil traffic, yes always possible, but in this exact location most unlikely.
The line is drawn at the point where the ATC instruction makes the hairs on the back of your head stick out.
If I heard a voice that sounded like a 5 year old girl, I might just ignore, and when able ask for clarification.
Many thanks for the input, I thrust the responses satisfy the court of enquiry.
It was not a mistake, for all the reasons above, it was in my humble oppinion an unauthorised ATC breakin.
re ASR, that is still an option, and is under consideration.
heated
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This is surely a matter serious enough to instantly report to ATC and involve the local police. If you did not do this then it may indicate some irresponsibility on your part.
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Re reporting the incident
The captain decided that there was no major problem.
I have asked the handling agent to ask ATC, to check the tapes, to see if there was any "reception" on their receiver.
Obvously nothing on the TX tape.
Thanks funfly.
heated
I have asked the handling agent to ask ATC, to check the tapes, to see if there was any "reception" on their receiver.
Obvously nothing on the TX tape.
Thanks funfly.
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Heated.
That was a nice reply to my post which, on re-reading, sounds a bit aggresive which it wasn't intended to be.
It does go to show how simple it would be to direct an aircraft especially if the caller was a confident R/T person as yours may well have been - plenty of people have stand-by transeivers.....
That was a nice reply to my post which, on re-reading, sounds a bit aggresive which it wasn't intended to be.
It does go to show how simple it would be to direct an aircraft especially if the caller was a confident R/T person as yours may well have been - plenty of people have stand-by transeivers.....
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Hello,
Just my personal opinion...
Next time it happens, use standard procedure...
Give a readback ... Roger climb to FL90... (or even CONFIRM climb to FL90).
This will give the ATCO the possibility to REPLY (yes/No/ Affirm due to mil tfc or xxxxx) If you get a a heterodyne ... you know 2 ATCO's or 1ATCO and someone else are TX on the same frequency...
If you get a response NEGATIVE inform immediately the ATCO concerned that unauthorised TX is in progress. This will give the ATCO the possibility to closely monitor the TFC/FREQ (if necessary he'll ask the SUPV to keep a listening watch on the freq, without squelch)...
Such cases require immediate action from both sides...
Tell your captain that he was wrong, immediate action to advise the ATC is necessary.
And ... file an ASR...
Greetings...
BM
PS: Don't use your TCAS as a separation tool .... I can give you hundreds of reasons why it isn't made for that !
Just my 2cents ...
Just my personal opinion...
Next time it happens, use standard procedure...
Give a readback ... Roger climb to FL90... (or even CONFIRM climb to FL90).
This will give the ATCO the possibility to REPLY (yes/No/ Affirm due to mil tfc or xxxxx) If you get a a heterodyne ... you know 2 ATCO's or 1ATCO and someone else are TX on the same frequency...
If you get a response NEGATIVE inform immediately the ATCO concerned that unauthorised TX is in progress. This will give the ATCO the possibility to closely monitor the TFC/FREQ (if necessary he'll ask the SUPV to keep a listening watch on the freq, without squelch)...
Such cases require immediate action from both sides...
Tell your captain that he was wrong, immediate action to advise the ATC is necessary.
And ... file an ASR...
Greetings...
BM
PS: Don't use your TCAS as a separation tool .... I can give you hundreds of reasons why it isn't made for that !
Just my 2cents ...
