Why is asking again so difficult for some?
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Why is asking again so difficult for some?
Hi all.
Flew recently with a senior captain with many years in the cockpit. A very friendly bloke with generally very good CRM and he keeps a relaxed environment.
But yesterday we were flying into a large international airport and we were given a clearance to follow a STAR with a shortcut instruction, something like this: Follow XXXXX 1 B arrival, WWWWW direct. The WWWWW was the last point of the STAR and the centrefix for the ILS. I set this up in the FMS and inserted the Direct. We were pretty close to the arrival so I wanted to set things up for us and have it over and done with to reduce the workload and to buy more time for briefings and checklists etc.
The captain didn't hear the Direct instruction and was very sceptical to my actions and I tried my best to explain the clearance. I even had it written down. But he just didn't believe me. In that case the best thing from my viewpoint would have been to ask the controller again and confirm the clearance. But instead he did what he thought he heard and took control of the plane (I was PF). He inserted the first point of the STAR and we made a 90 degree turn which in turn promted a call from the controller asking us what we were doing.
Now to my point. Why is it so hard for some to ask the controller again if we missed the clearance in the first place? Why guess? What are they worried about? If it is prestige, isn't it more embarrasing doing the wrong thing and being told off by ATC, than asking about the clearance?
Perhaps I was wrong in inserting the clearance so early without having him properly in the loop. After everything was sorted out, he admitted to being wrong and everything was fine, but I'm just curious, what is it that makes it so difficult to ask in the first place? I find it's a more common occurance with more senior colleagues than younger ones, does it come with age? Or is it culture?
Thanks/ LnS
Flew recently with a senior captain with many years in the cockpit. A very friendly bloke with generally very good CRM and he keeps a relaxed environment.
But yesterday we were flying into a large international airport and we were given a clearance to follow a STAR with a shortcut instruction, something like this: Follow XXXXX 1 B arrival, WWWWW direct. The WWWWW was the last point of the STAR and the centrefix for the ILS. I set this up in the FMS and inserted the Direct. We were pretty close to the arrival so I wanted to set things up for us and have it over and done with to reduce the workload and to buy more time for briefings and checklists etc.
The captain didn't hear the Direct instruction and was very sceptical to my actions and I tried my best to explain the clearance. I even had it written down. But he just didn't believe me. In that case the best thing from my viewpoint would have been to ask the controller again and confirm the clearance. But instead he did what he thought he heard and took control of the plane (I was PF). He inserted the first point of the STAR and we made a 90 degree turn which in turn promted a call from the controller asking us what we were doing.
Now to my point. Why is it so hard for some to ask the controller again if we missed the clearance in the first place? Why guess? What are they worried about? If it is prestige, isn't it more embarrasing doing the wrong thing and being told off by ATC, than asking about the clearance?
Perhaps I was wrong in inserting the clearance so early without having him properly in the loop. After everything was sorted out, he admitted to being wrong and everything was fine, but I'm just curious, what is it that makes it so difficult to ask in the first place? I find it's a more common occurance with more senior colleagues than younger ones, does it come with age? Or is it culture?
Thanks/ LnS
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Get quite a number of crews asking for clearance confirmation these days for what they term 'crew co-ordination purposes'. No harm whatsoever in doing this and it makes sure that everyone on the flight deck is aware of the clearance 
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Some times its because of a miss timed RT call.
Would be interesting to know PPrune radar if the crew co-ordination repeats are after certain linked events.
ie decent to an altitude shortly followed by a vector or direct.
Or initial decent followed by the same.
About 90% of the times I have asked for a clearance to be repeated its because a checklist has been triggered by the previous instruction and just as the PNF gets into the guts of it another instruction comes in.
It could be as simple as doing the direction changes first then the altitude change or just leaving the direction change for 60 seconds after the decent.
And 10mins to landing is always a good one, as one of you is on the PA normally.
Would be interesting to know PPrune radar if the crew co-ordination repeats are after certain linked events.
ie decent to an altitude shortly followed by a vector or direct.
Or initial decent followed by the same.
About 90% of the times I have asked for a clearance to be repeated its because a checklist has been triggered by the previous instruction and just as the PNF gets into the guts of it another instruction comes in.
It could be as simple as doing the direction changes first then the altitude change or just leaving the direction change for 60 seconds after the decent.
And 10mins to landing is always a good one, as one of you is on the PA normally.
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The following reasons I am about to outline are not specifically directed at you but just trying to give an idea why a Senior Captain may question you or doubt you more.
* Your experience on the a/c type - if you have low hours.
* Your experience with the airport - if its your first time landing there.
* His experience with the airport - he may be familiar with the airport and its STARS and never heard such a clearance given before.
* His experience flying with you - have you flown together before.
* His perception of you - are you quiet, introvert, against his more dominant character.
* As mentioned in above post - ego
At the end of the day there is no excuse if one pilot is not sure or if ever you come across a situation where you question something ALWAYS get confirmation from ATC and also applies with Cabin Crew and other personal e.g ground, such as re-fuller or dispatcher.
As a Senior Captain he should know better, but atleast he admitted his fault and apologised which is commendable. What you need to do is think how can 'I' learn from this and how could I have avoided it... hence making you a better airman.
The fact that you have already reviewed your actions is excellent... Like you said perhaps it would have been prudent to keep the Captain in the loop by telling and confirming with him what your entering into the FMS. Also rather than going into explanations as soon as he was not in agreement (a warning sign), tell him directly to ask ATC to confirm the clearance.
Also think if the situation had been different and ATC never noticed your 90 degree turn, what would you have done then?...(thinking point)... If there was high terrain or conflicting traffic things could have turned out more serious... as he took control and was now PF that makes you PNF and in charge of the radio, so now you can call ATC and get confirmation.
These are all learning points and if you go away and think about how you can do things better or create scenarios where things may be different it will benefit you greatly.
I'm not having a go at you at all, I'm totally on your side but you will always fly with different captains and you will always come across these different issues, hence giving you more experience.
Aka.
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If there's any doubt then there's no doubt!
* Your experience on the a/c type - if you have low hours.
* Your experience with the airport - if its your first time landing there.
* His experience with the airport - he may be familiar with the airport and its STARS and never heard such a clearance given before.
* His experience flying with you - have you flown together before.
* His perception of you - are you quiet, introvert, against his more dominant character.
* As mentioned in above post - ego
At the end of the day there is no excuse if one pilot is not sure or if ever you come across a situation where you question something ALWAYS get confirmation from ATC and also applies with Cabin Crew and other personal e.g ground, such as re-fuller or dispatcher.
As a Senior Captain he should know better, but atleast he admitted his fault and apologised which is commendable. What you need to do is think how can 'I' learn from this and how could I have avoided it... hence making you a better airman.
The fact that you have already reviewed your actions is excellent... Like you said perhaps it would have been prudent to keep the Captain in the loop by telling and confirming with him what your entering into the FMS. Also rather than going into explanations as soon as he was not in agreement (a warning sign), tell him directly to ask ATC to confirm the clearance.
Also think if the situation had been different and ATC never noticed your 90 degree turn, what would you have done then?...(thinking point)... If there was high terrain or conflicting traffic things could have turned out more serious... as he took control and was now PF that makes you PNF and in charge of the radio, so now you can call ATC and get confirmation.
These are all learning points and if you go away and think about how you can do things better or create scenarios where things may be different it will benefit you greatly.
I'm not having a go at you at all, I'm totally on your side but you will always fly with different captains and you will always come across these different issues, hence giving you more experience.
Aka.
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If there's any doubt then there's no doubt!
Last edited by AKAFresh; 1st Apr 2009 at 17:29. Reason: usual suspects - spelling and grammar
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I was just asked a few hours ago to go direct to a waypoint... had to ask 3 times ATC to repeat the waypoint as I simply couldn't understand what they were saying (the fact that it was my first time at that airport, and that their english leaves much to be desired contributed)
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In a multi-crew operation there is absolutely no room for confusion over ATC clearances. If you BOTH do not copy the clearance the first time - get it confirmed by ATC.
In the example that you gave you there was only one option open to you. Get ATC to repeat the clearance. Don't let pride, either yours or the captains get in the way of a safe flight. That is your responsibility.
In the example that you gave you there was only one option open to you. Get ATC to repeat the clearance. Don't let pride, either yours or the captains get in the way of a safe flight. That is your responsibility.
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Our SOP's say that if the PNF is out of the loop, say getting the atis on the other box and during that time there's a level change, when he returns, a crew co-ordination confirmation from atc is required.
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Better safe than sorry - I can well imagine the consternation in ATC when someone did an unexpected 90 degree turn!
I never told a pilot off in my life for asking for a repeat.
I never told a pilot off in my life for asking for a repeat.
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Confirm
Gents. If you are unsure of the clearance, please DO NOT read back the clearance as issued and say confirm. 
Either, say "Confirm Clearance", or "SAY AGAIN" and the contoller will reissue the clearance , and hopefully you will both be paying attention. It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the controller to listen for and obtain a correct readback.
Either, say "Confirm Clearance", or "SAY AGAIN" and the contoller will reissue the clearance , and hopefully you will both be paying attention. It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the controller to listen for and obtain a correct readback.
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Rule 3, you make an excellent point and one which is often neglected by some crews.
Its very easy for a busy controller to say 'Yes' to a question where you supply all the information, without getting the controller to think. For example ATC clear you to FL230 and you readback correctly, several seconds/minutes later crew require the cleared level to be confirmed. Theres no point saying 'can you confirm XXX is cleared to FL230' because its human nature to say 'Yes' straight away especially when under stress.
Instead don't put the level you thought of in the phrase, simply ask 'can you confirm the cleared level' this way you make the controller actually think about his instruction rather than putting words in his mouth.
The root of this particular topic concerns the use of 'Leading Questions' which in general are best avoided in the cockpit when challenging other crew members on specific data.... easier said then done... i know!
Sorry if it sounds like a CAP413 lesson! Just thought that its worth elaborating on Rule 3's point earlier.... ill stop now!
Aka.
Its very easy for a busy controller to say 'Yes' to a question where you supply all the information, without getting the controller to think. For example ATC clear you to FL230 and you readback correctly, several seconds/minutes later crew require the cleared level to be confirmed. Theres no point saying 'can you confirm XXX is cleared to FL230' because its human nature to say 'Yes' straight away especially when under stress.
Instead don't put the level you thought of in the phrase, simply ask 'can you confirm the cleared level' this way you make the controller actually think about his instruction rather than putting words in his mouth.
The root of this particular topic concerns the use of 'Leading Questions' which in general are best avoided in the cockpit when challenging other crew members on specific data.... easier said then done... i know!
Sorry if it sounds like a CAP413 lesson! Just thought that its worth elaborating on Rule 3's point earlier.... ill stop now!
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Ego.
Clearly the specified Captain was a prat, and quite frankly, should be referred to the Chief Pilot and be sent back to the sim for remeadial training.
OTOH, if said Captain IS the Chief Pilot...then we have a slight problem...
Flying into Russia a few months ago, we receive an ATC clearance that neither the First officer nor the Flight Engineer can understand, as for myself, just barely.
I ask again, as the First Officer is flying the airplane.
This time the ATC instruction is in English....ahhh, that's much better.
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I think that your airline/operator has a certain problem with SOPs. For both major operators that I've worked for, SOP was that BOTH pilots must have heard the clearance, and agree with each other that they've both interpreted it identically.
If only one pilot has heard it, then "say again clearance" to ATC is a requirement. If one pilot is absent from the cockpit, e.g. at the loo, the remaining pilot at the controls is expected to follow the new clearance, but request confirmation from ATC upon the other crew member's return.
411A, I agree with you in principal, but I doubt that this prat's problem could be fixed in the Simulator, methinks some other form of management directed "motivation" would be in order.
A good SOP will greatly help with problems encountered with the SOB you were flying with!
Regards,
Old Smokey
If only one pilot has heard it, then "say again clearance" to ATC is a requirement. If one pilot is absent from the cockpit, e.g. at the loo, the remaining pilot at the controls is expected to follow the new clearance, but request confirmation from ATC upon the other crew member's return.
411A, I agree with you in principal, but I doubt that this prat's problem could be fixed in the Simulator, methinks some other form of management directed "motivation" would be in order.
A good SOP will greatly help with problems encountered with the SOB you were flying with!
Regards,
Old Smokey
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If you were PF, does your company SOP allow for you to enter instructions in FMC? It happens sometimes I know but if its his job as PNF to make FMC changes your quickness might have caused in part the confusion..You could have asked him to confirm the clearance, or asked again yourself? Either way you should both agree before executing and changes. Although with regards to some of the replies, I see no reason to make disrespectful comments about people based on such limited information about them or their reported actions. Having read your post again he doesn't sound like an Ego at all.
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perhaps it would have been prudent to keep the Captain in the loop by telling and confirming with him what your entering into the FMS. Also rather than going into explanations as soon as he was not in agreement (a warning sign), tell him directly to ask ATC to confirm the clearance.
Get quite a number of crews asking for clearance confirmation these days for what they term 'crew co-ordination purposes'
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The pnf in my company of course responds to the atc calls and enters the new clearance (if applicable) in the fms. Not sure about where you fly though sop's typically require both crewmembers to at least verbally confirm a change before executing it.
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Thanks all for your reply's.
Might I add that we have many strange parts in our SOP that makes half the pilots do one thing and the other half another in the same situation?
Much food for thought.
Thanks
/LnS
Might I add that we have many strange parts in our SOP that makes half the pilots do one thing and the other half another in the same situation?
Much food for thought.
Thanks
/LnS
